Mappers - A law Unto Themselves ?
23 July 2014 | 10:53 PM
#31
23 July 2014 | 10:55 PM
#32
Huge reputations are created on these forums by people quoting the good experiences of others as if they were their own. Engine builders, tuners, mappers, paint sprayers, kit suppliers et al are proposed by people who often have never been near the person they are recommending.
When I had the front of my car smashed by a deer collision I had lots of suggestions that Ryan/prodriverules was the only guy to see, even if I had to wait six months to see the car again. It was so worth it! Wot?? Actually I took it to a local chap who did a fabulous job and turned it around in a week.
And for those few out there who don't know, Simon Roe is JGM, Jolly Green Monster, top man!
When I had the front of my car smashed by a deer collision I had lots of suggestions that Ryan/prodriverules was the only guy to see, even if I had to wait six months to see the car again. It was so worth it! Wot?? Actually I took it to a local chap who did a fabulous job and turned it around in a week.
And for those few out there who don't know, Simon Roe is JGM, Jolly Green Monster, top man!
23 July 2014 | 10:57 PM
#33
Been running a map from the mapper in question on this thread for years and my car has performed perfectly, no issues whatsoever. Map was checked by Rich @FB Tuning when he did some further work to the car for me and he also said map looks fine and car drives better than he even expected.
Threads like this do no good for reputations. If people have grievances then it's best resolved behind closed doors IMO.
Threads like this do no good for reputations. If people have grievances then it's best resolved behind closed doors IMO.
Last edited by BrownPantsRacing; 23 July 2014 at 10:58 PM.
23 July 2014 | 10:58 PM
#34
Huge reputations are created on these forums by people quoting the good experiences of others as if they were their own. Engine builders, tuners, mappers, paint sprayers, kit suppliers et al are proposed by people who often have never been near the person they are recommending.
When I had the front of my car smashed by a deer collision I had lots of suggestions that Ryan/prodriverules was the only guy to see, even if I had to wait six months to see the car again. It was so worth it! Wot?? Actually I took it to a local chap who did a fabulous job and turned it around in a week.
And for those few out there who don't know, Simon Roe is JGM, Jolly Green Monster, top man!
When I had the front of my car smashed by a deer collision I had lots of suggestions that Ryan/prodriverules was the only guy to see, even if I had to wait six months to see the car again. It was so worth it! Wot?? Actually I took it to a local chap who did a fabulous job and turned it around in a week.
And for those few out there who don't know, Simon Roe is JGM, Jolly Green Monster, top man!
Nice
23 July 2014 | 10:58 PM
#35
Hey guys, Pm`s replied to 
I used the mapper in question as heard good things, The reason you dont hear bad things is because as i mentioned, components are blamed for a poorly running car so the driver puts up with the car running like it does after the map assuming until they replace the said part, the car will then be o.k, where most dont actually replace the part and the car runs crap, but they put up with it.
If they did replace the part, they would learn the car still runs poorly and then another component is blamed and the circle repeats.
I dont mind mentioning the Mapper, yes it was Duncan aka RaceDynamix, im not expecting anything from this thread as i have completed a good map on the car myself, i should demand a part refund or even full refund as my car was left considerably crap after the map than before it was mapped, hence i was advised to replace, W, X, Y and Z, which i did, which didnt change anything.
1.Car was meant to be mapped to 1.3 Bar, my boost gauge always read just under 1.2 bar, was advised the gauge was probably out a bit, but alas, the car was only running 1.1 Bar as wastegate duty was set too low.
2. Car had massive hesitation on boost and as you can imagine,getting 3 or 4 surges of boost,no boost,boost then the rest of boost all in the same gear, after a remap was very poor, everyone used to laugh when in the car lol, Map sensor blamed and replaced,coilpacks blamed and replaced, plugs blamed and replaced, the fix ? well, the car was mapped to run mafless yet the MAF was left connected and no resistor was put in place
3. Car failed MOT on emmsiions later that year, 1st time in 8 yrs, so naturally i questioned the map, granted my lambda sensor was at fault but the AFR`s were set so rich it failed the emmisions test (if lamdba fails, the AFR table is used)
4. The final straw that made me self map was duncan came out and altered the AFR`s leaner to allow the lamdba voltage to be 0.9 at 2400 or there abouts, great when the car was hot, 15 mins after he left, i started the car, it wouldnt idle as the afr`s were so lean, kept cutting out and wouldnt idle at all, want to know what the AFR was set to ? 22 !!!! considering 14.7 is stoich, 22 is as lean as, well, a lean thing ! It was from here he ignored me to alter it back, we had an argument that i didnt want to pay another £20 for him to correct his error when he was next in the area, i didnt think that was bad of me ?
Alot of it was the reluctance to help,even if i was told, i can fix it in 3 weeks, that would of been fine, but to be ignored i had to badger him like i was his stalker, i felt like a stalker !
anyhoo, there were other issues but thats enough for now.
Granted he does good work, i dont deny that
, but there are bad experiences out there and im sharing mine, thats all
I used the mapper in question as heard good things, The reason you dont hear bad things is because as i mentioned, components are blamed for a poorly running car so the driver puts up with the car running like it does after the map assuming until they replace the said part, the car will then be o.k, where most dont actually replace the part and the car runs crap, but they put up with it.
If they did replace the part, they would learn the car still runs poorly and then another component is blamed and the circle repeats.
I dont mind mentioning the Mapper, yes it was Duncan aka RaceDynamix, im not expecting anything from this thread as i have completed a good map on the car myself, i should demand a part refund or even full refund as my car was left considerably crap after the map than before it was mapped, hence i was advised to replace, W, X, Y and Z, which i did, which didnt change anything.
1.Car was meant to be mapped to 1.3 Bar, my boost gauge always read just under 1.2 bar, was advised the gauge was probably out a bit, but alas, the car was only running 1.1 Bar as wastegate duty was set too low.
2. Car had massive hesitation on boost and as you can imagine,getting 3 or 4 surges of boost,no boost,boost then the rest of boost all in the same gear, after a remap was very poor, everyone used to laugh when in the car lol, Map sensor blamed and replaced,coilpacks blamed and replaced, plugs blamed and replaced, the fix ? well, the car was mapped to run mafless yet the MAF was left connected and no resistor was put in place
3. Car failed MOT on emmsiions later that year, 1st time in 8 yrs, so naturally i questioned the map, granted my lambda sensor was at fault but the AFR`s were set so rich it failed the emmisions test (if lamdba fails, the AFR table is used)
4. The final straw that made me self map was duncan came out and altered the AFR`s leaner to allow the lamdba voltage to be 0.9 at 2400 or there abouts, great when the car was hot, 15 mins after he left, i started the car, it wouldnt idle as the afr`s were so lean, kept cutting out and wouldnt idle at all, want to know what the AFR was set to ? 22 !!!! considering 14.7 is stoich, 22 is as lean as, well, a lean thing ! It was from here he ignored me to alter it back, we had an argument that i didnt want to pay another £20 for him to correct his error when he was next in the area, i didnt think that was bad of me ?
Alot of it was the reluctance to help,even if i was told, i can fix it in 3 weeks, that would of been fine, but to be ignored
i had to badger him like i was his stalker, i felt like a stalker !anyhoo, there were other issues but thats enough for now.
Granted he does good work, i dont deny that
, but there are bad experiences out there and im sharing mine, thats all
Last edited by The Rig; 23 July 2014 at 11:01 PM.
23 July 2014 | 11:12 PM
#39
Personally I think threads like this are absolutely priceless.
In fact I would have a sticky for mappers with customers feedback and experiences.
I have used pat, Andrew Carr, powerstation and Bob Rawle over the years and Bob gets my vote 100%.
Pat and Andy did a good job but I thought Bob was outstanding !
For the record I wouldn't chuck a ****ty stick at powerstation !
Just my opinion.
Siv
In fact I would have a sticky for mappers with customers feedback and experiences.
I have used pat, Andrew Carr, powerstation and Bob Rawle over the years and Bob gets my vote 100%.
Pat and Andy did a good job but I thought Bob was outstanding !
For the record I wouldn't chuck a ****ty stick at powerstation !
Just my opinion.
Siv
23 July 2014 | 11:32 PM
#41
Scooby Regular
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: Watford
exactly the reason I started working on my cars myself. My first car was an audi 80 with a 3A engine, it was not really working, I went to a mechanic, who told me first thing, that he needs to meet his girlfriend tonight and needs some money, but his boss did not pay him his salary yet, so he takes me out of his hours, but will charge me a bit more.
he took the air box rubber manifold off, removed the metallic mesh, threw it in to the bin, and pulled some connectors out (which i found out just later), charged me round 200 quid for a 30 minute job. the car was running monstrous for the first 3 miles until I switched the ignition off, then it would not start anymore.
after that, I took out the service manual and, well, it took me 3 weeks, but I repaired the car. The bush mechanic had pulled out some plugs and defaulted the ECU, it was running in, say, emergency mode for a couple of hours until it fried itself...
anyhow, I have seen the culprit being advertised on facebook a lot, and I thought to myself, that the prices he is charging for live road mapping, not dyno mapping are a bit over the top. 500 quid for a map without a dyno? is that not too much?
he took the air box rubber manifold off, removed the metallic mesh, threw it in to the bin, and pulled some connectors out (which i found out just later), charged me round 200 quid for a 30 minute job. the car was running monstrous for the first 3 miles until I switched the ignition off, then it would not start anymore.
after that, I took out the service manual and, well, it took me 3 weeks, but I repaired the car. The bush mechanic had pulled out some plugs and defaulted the ECU, it was running in, say, emergency mode for a couple of hours until it fried itself...
anyhow, I have seen the culprit being advertised on facebook a lot, and I thought to myself, that the prices he is charging for live road mapping, not dyno mapping are a bit over the top. 500 quid for a map without a dyno? is that not too much?
23 July 2014 | 11:42 PM
#42
A word of advice to anyone wanting to use a mapper. Always check and see what automotive experience your chosen mapper has. As a minimum I would want the mapper to have a good knowledge of engines. You'd be surprised how little mechanical expertise some mappers had before embarking on mapping careers.
I had a conversation with Alan Jeffrey once about mapping. I didn't always see eye to eye with him but he is a blunt and a straight to the point man. He had no time for the man with a laptop mappers. He insisted that a proper mapper should have some garage experience and skill. Furthermore for safety the initial map should be done on the rollers and tweaked on a road test if required. He was absolutely right in my opinion.
I had a conversation with Alan Jeffrey once about mapping. I didn't always see eye to eye with him but he is a blunt and a straight to the point man. He had no time for the man with a laptop mappers. He insisted that a proper mapper should have some garage experience and skill. Furthermore for safety the initial map should be done on the rollers and tweaked on a road test if required. He was absolutely right in my opinion.
24 July 2014 | 12:59 AM
#43
Scooby Newbie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Eastleigh (Southampton)
Hello all,
I read this thread with great intrigue, it is a subject very close to my heart.
I consider the person who began this thread to be a very lucky man. He, like me wanted to improve the performance of his car, and thus took the correct and sensible approach of commissioning a professional mapper to undertake the work of surveying his current set up, advising an approach to achieve the target power safely, and then carrying out the mapping either on RR, road, or both.
He may of been advised to carry out upgrades prior to the mapping session, which were carried out himself, by the mapper, or by a third party company.
This process cost the owner a fair amount of money, the end result was not what he expected, maybe the car did not perform well, maybe the drive was not smooth through the range, maybe the cold start and warm up sequence was not smooth, but he probably received the certificate that he wanted, you know the one that says my impreza makes X BHP.
As a result, he was at a loss and had to find a way to make the car drive as he wanted it to, as it should. Luckily he was able to work it out himself, and finally with his own efforts and learning resources he managed to get the car to perform how he felt it should. Well done that man, bravo for your efforts, you were very very lucky.
I also had the same desire to seek more performance from my 1995 WRX speed Hill Climb car. The car had run well stock at 260 ish BHP (PS) and I had pretty good championship performance achieving 3rd overall in class over the season in 2009. I wanted to achieve more power (target 300 BHP) so took the car to a recommended tuning company who specialised in Subaru for an assessment. The assessment was carried out on their in house dyno, the result showed 275 BHP (flywheel) and it was recommended that the stock ECU be replaced with a Simtek( alcatek now) and the fuel leaned off as the stock Z5 was fueling a safe rich 10.5 AFR under boost sapping power. Some mods where also suggested (440 cc Injectors) de-MAF etc.
Cost was around £1300, so I agreed and the work was done. I do have to say that I was pleased with the result, and the car seemed more responsive, smoother under acceleration, but the dyno showed that the car still only made 275 BHP with a tad more torque coming in earlier than before. I was told that the limitation was due to the TMIC and that was the weak link. I accepted this and was actually happy with the work that had been done.
Two to three weeks later the car lost compression on #4 cyl. I contacted the mapper to explain that the engine had failed on cyl #4 and he responded that he thought the turbo may have failed causing oil to carry over to the engine causing hydraulic damage or det. I used an endoscope to try and see what was wrong, and sent a picture of what I thought was a damaged piston to the mapper, explaining what I had seen. I received no response, by suggesting that maybe the mapping had caused the issue, the mapper immediately cut me off.
I stripped the engine and found no 4 Cyl piston had cracked a ring land. I replaced piston, rebuilt turbo, To be safe and got car up and running again. I wanted the map checked, so commissioned a new mapper. This mapper suggested that previous mapper had mapped too lean, so re-mapped richer and produced 315 BHP from the same set up. I was of course very pleased, until engine lost compression on Cylinder 2 & 4.
Pulled engine down, replaced pistons on 2 & 4 got car running again. Went back to mapper explained the situation and he suggested trying a richer mixture for 2 & 4 to help prevent det. Ok we'll try that
Ring land breaks on no 4 this time, out with engine replace no 4 piston, as you do.
Then more broken pistons, (lost count)
Back to mapper, mapper suggests WRX cast pistons not strong enough for speed hill climb need forged engine for that sort of abuse, that will sort problem once and for all.
OK engine goes for complete semi forged build,re-bore 92.5mm, Mahle 4032 pistons, Williams rods, modded cross drilled crank, RCM 12mm oil pump, ACL race bearings, overhauled cylinder heads, Cosworth head gaskets, etc. Cost £3.5K plus more hours building up and fitting.
Run in as instructed over 1500 Miles. Two race meetings, lost compression on No 4 Cylinder
Engine had done 2000 Miles.
Pull engine, this time no broken pistons, (forged don't crack) but the pistons have over expanded due to high combustion temperatures causing the rings to jam in and loss of compression. All 4 pistons had suffered, however 2 & 4 where the worse.
I could not afford to send back to engine builder so repaired myself at a cost of £1K.
Car is now back on the road after a year of saving money and working when I could on the engine. It has a Front mount now and is being run in, just 40 miles so far. But there is a problem with the map causing this issue, it was obviously set into the original map that was programmed in when the Simtek was fitted, the second mapper failed to spot it and I will explain why later.
But the issue is still there, if I race this car again, then this engine will blow again, driving on the road is no issue, again I will cover that shortly.
Wife says enough is enough, if it blows it goes
So came third in the championship in 2009 no issues, new Simtek ECU, and a
map so far has cost me around £7k and estimated 350 working hours, any more power or performance, nope not really, I did not make any better times on the track than before the work was done period
I did go back to the first mapper eventually to ask if he would change out the ECU for a new Simtek, (not that the ECU was the problem of course) and he replied:
"Sorry I cant help you, I don't touch Subaru's any longer, they are a nightmare, I am only concentrating on EVO's now. I also don't want anything to do with the new Simtec ECU".
I thought that a bit strange, as mapper was listed on new Simtec web site as an approved installer, hey ho.
So what has gone wrong.
Well, one thing is apparent. In my short experience of mappers and mapping, I conclude that you have to map the car by putting it through the same driving sequence as it will be put through by the driver in any situation.
For example, in my case I start my Hill Climb run with a 6K RPM launch, then proceed downhill going though gears at max RPM changes, then feather for a left hand bend (approx 89 MPH 4th Gear) then a long right drifting around (89 - 91 MPH 4th gear 7.5K RPM) then hard on the brakes, tight right (35 MPH) into 2nd, full throttle, hard on the brakes, then through the gears up hill over the finish line at 90 MPH 4th gear. Can be seen here:
I don't suppose a 4th gear power blast on the dyno really prepared the map for that run
Ok, yes there was a road map, but nothing like what you see in the video. So,
if cells are entered on the map that the mapper ignored, because he didn't think they would be entered, we could have a serious lean out and the damage is done in seconds.
The area on the track that the damage occurs, is just before, or just after the first high speed turn.
Of course there is no warranty and my money and time is lost, but beware, when you enter into the world of mapping you might be taking on more than you bargain for. IMO (judging only on my experience with the mappers I worked with and NOT to tar all with the same brush) not enough time is taken to complete a map, certainly no where near the time spent by Subaru on the stock map. Mappers are like bankers (no that was not a typo I meant Bankers) they are immune from any come back, and still get paid even if they dont perform, you engine blows, mapper will respond " bad luck m8" No one will reimburse you, you will have to repair your engine at your cost, and in my case, time and time again.
Mapping is complex, there are may parameters to consider, and many situations that have to be calculated and considered, you cannot map a car in 15 - 20 mins on a dyno using a 4th gear power blast and be sure that the engine is safe for all situations, this assumes that all other areas of the map where fine in the first instance, so all we have to do is find another 20 or 30 BHP on the forth gear dyno pull and give the happy customer their certificate.
How much did your certificate cost ? mine cost me £7K and 4 years of lost motorsport time, let alone all of the hours spent working on the car when I should have not needed to do so.
Those who say mapping is easy, "just pull power, increase boost to target, adjust fueling for correct AFR, advance timing until hear sparkly noise, back off, all done" dont get it, there are so many parameters to consider, it's a mine field, a real art that has to be learnt and practiced over many years.
It's kinda like when you got married you hired a professional photographer cos you wanted proper pictures of the event, now we don't have to bother, we all got i-phones were all pro photographers now. Just because you got a lap top and a basic understanding of mapping, does not make you a pro mapper, Christ, there are guys out there (and some girls, I hope) that have been mapping for years, charging people serious money to map and still not getting it right always, so what hope has the average person got having a go from day one. Yes maybe on a road car, but not a race car, that is different I think.
Me, I am just enjoying driving the car again after 11 Months off the road, still love the car awesome, even driving it gently for running in new rings, but will I ever race again, if I cant get this problem sorted and remove the duff data from the map the car will blow again, and I'm at the end of the road with this issue, will I ever be able to trust the map to drive hard again ?
Need an expert to sort this out once and for all, trouble is, I went to the experts in the first place didn't I
Thanks for your time reading this long post, open to all comments / questions.
Finally, consider enjoying your Scoob stock, you wont enjoy it as much as if you tuned it, but you may enjoy it for a lot longer
Regards to all,
Jules.
I read this thread with great intrigue, it is a subject very close to my heart.
I consider the person who began this thread to be a very lucky man. He, like me wanted to improve the performance of his car, and thus took the correct and sensible approach of commissioning a professional mapper to undertake the work of surveying his current set up, advising an approach to achieve the target power safely, and then carrying out the mapping either on RR, road, or both.
He may of been advised to carry out upgrades prior to the mapping session, which were carried out himself, by the mapper, or by a third party company.
This process cost the owner a fair amount of money, the end result was not what he expected, maybe the car did not perform well, maybe the drive was not smooth through the range, maybe the cold start and warm up sequence was not smooth, but he probably received the certificate that he wanted, you know the one that says my impreza makes X BHP.
As a result, he was at a loss and had to find a way to make the car drive as he wanted it to, as it should. Luckily he was able to work it out himself, and finally with his own efforts and learning resources he managed to get the car to perform how he felt it should. Well done that man, bravo for your efforts, you were very very lucky.
I also had the same desire to seek more performance from my 1995 WRX speed Hill Climb car. The car had run well stock at 260 ish BHP (PS) and I had pretty good championship performance achieving 3rd overall in class over the season in 2009. I wanted to achieve more power (target 300 BHP) so took the car to a recommended tuning company who specialised in Subaru for an assessment. The assessment was carried out on their in house dyno, the result showed 275 BHP (flywheel) and it was recommended that the stock ECU be replaced with a Simtek( alcatek now) and the fuel leaned off as the stock Z5 was fueling a safe rich 10.5 AFR under boost sapping power. Some mods where also suggested (440 cc Injectors) de-MAF etc.
Cost was around £1300, so I agreed and the work was done. I do have to say that I was pleased with the result, and the car seemed more responsive, smoother under acceleration, but the dyno showed that the car still only made 275 BHP with a tad more torque coming in earlier than before. I was told that the limitation was due to the TMIC and that was the weak link. I accepted this and was actually happy with the work that had been done.
Two to three weeks later the car lost compression on #4 cyl. I contacted the mapper to explain that the engine had failed on cyl #4 and he responded that he thought the turbo may have failed causing oil to carry over to the engine causing hydraulic damage or det. I used an endoscope to try and see what was wrong, and sent a picture of what I thought was a damaged piston to the mapper, explaining what I had seen. I received no response, by suggesting that maybe the mapping had caused the issue, the mapper immediately cut me off.
I stripped the engine and found no 4 Cyl piston had cracked a ring land. I replaced piston, rebuilt turbo, To be safe and got car up and running again. I wanted the map checked, so commissioned a new mapper. This mapper suggested that previous mapper had mapped too lean, so re-mapped richer and produced 315 BHP from the same set up. I was of course very pleased, until engine lost compression on Cylinder 2 & 4.
Pulled engine down, replaced pistons on 2 & 4 got car running again. Went back to mapper explained the situation and he suggested trying a richer mixture for 2 & 4 to help prevent det. Ok we'll try that
Ring land breaks on no 4 this time, out with engine replace no 4 piston, as you do.
Then more broken pistons, (lost count)
Back to mapper, mapper suggests WRX cast pistons not strong enough for speed hill climb need forged engine for that sort of abuse, that will sort problem once and for all.
OK engine goes for complete semi forged build,re-bore 92.5mm, Mahle 4032 pistons, Williams rods, modded cross drilled crank, RCM 12mm oil pump, ACL race bearings, overhauled cylinder heads, Cosworth head gaskets, etc. Cost £3.5K plus more hours building up and fitting.
Run in as instructed over 1500 Miles. Two race meetings, lost compression on No 4 Cylinder
Engine had done 2000 Miles.Pull engine, this time no broken pistons, (forged don't crack) but the pistons have over expanded due to high combustion temperatures causing the rings to jam in and loss of compression. All 4 pistons had suffered, however 2 & 4 where the worse.
I could not afford to send back to engine builder so repaired myself at a cost of £1K.
Car is now back on the road after a year of saving money and working when I could on the engine. It has a Front mount now and is being run in, just 40 miles so far. But there is a problem with the map causing this issue, it was obviously set into the original map that was programmed in when the Simtek was fitted, the second mapper failed to spot it and I will explain why later.
But the issue is still there, if I race this car again, then this engine will blow again, driving on the road is no issue, again I will cover that shortly.
Wife says enough is enough, if it blows it goes
So came third in the championship in 2009 no issues, new Simtek ECU, and a
map so far has cost me around £7k and estimated 350 working hours, any more power or performance, nope not really, I did not make any better times on the track than before the work was done period
I did go back to the first mapper eventually to ask if he would change out the ECU for a new Simtek, (not that the ECU was the problem of course) and he replied:
"Sorry I cant help you, I don't touch Subaru's any longer, they are a nightmare, I am only concentrating on EVO's now. I also don't want anything to do with the new Simtec ECU".
I thought that a bit strange, as mapper was listed on new Simtec web site as an approved installer, hey ho.
So what has gone wrong.
Well, one thing is apparent. In my short experience of mappers and mapping, I conclude that you have to map the car by putting it through the same driving sequence as it will be put through by the driver in any situation.
For example, in my case I start my Hill Climb run with a 6K RPM launch, then proceed downhill going though gears at max RPM changes, then feather for a left hand bend (approx 89 MPH 4th Gear) then a long right drifting around (89 - 91 MPH 4th gear 7.5K RPM) then hard on the brakes, tight right (35 MPH) into 2nd, full throttle, hard on the brakes, then through the gears up hill over the finish line at 90 MPH 4th gear. Can be seen here:
I don't suppose a 4th gear power blast on the dyno really prepared the map for that run
Ok, yes there was a road map, but nothing like what you see in the video. So,
if cells are entered on the map that the mapper ignored, because he didn't think they would be entered, we could have a serious lean out and the damage is done in seconds.
The area on the track that the damage occurs, is just before, or just after the first high speed turn.
Of course there is no warranty and my money and time is lost, but beware, when you enter into the world of mapping you might be taking on more than you bargain for. IMO (judging only on my experience with the mappers I worked with and NOT to tar all with the same brush) not enough time is taken to complete a map, certainly no where near the time spent by Subaru on the stock map. Mappers are like bankers (no that was not a typo I meant Bankers) they are immune from any come back, and still get paid even if they dont perform, you engine blows, mapper will respond " bad luck m8" No one will reimburse you, you will have to repair your engine at your cost, and in my case, time and time again.
Mapping is complex, there are may parameters to consider, and many situations that have to be calculated and considered, you cannot map a car in 15 - 20 mins on a dyno using a 4th gear power blast and be sure that the engine is safe for all situations, this assumes that all other areas of the map where fine in the first instance, so all we have to do is find another 20 or 30 BHP on the forth gear dyno pull and give the happy customer their certificate.
How much did your certificate cost ? mine cost me £7K and 4 years of lost motorsport time, let alone all of the hours spent working on the car when I should have not needed to do so.
Those who say mapping is easy, "just pull power, increase boost to target, adjust fueling for correct AFR, advance timing until hear sparkly noise, back off, all done" dont get it, there are so many parameters to consider, it's a mine field, a real art that has to be learnt and practiced over many years.
It's kinda like when you got married you hired a professional photographer cos you wanted proper pictures of the event, now we don't have to bother, we all got i-phones were all pro photographers now. Just because you got a lap top and a basic understanding of mapping, does not make you a pro mapper, Christ, there are guys out there (and some girls, I hope) that have been mapping for years, charging people serious money to map and still not getting it right always, so what hope has the average person got having a go from day one. Yes maybe on a road car, but not a race car, that is different I think.
Me, I am just enjoying driving the car again after 11 Months off the road, still love the car awesome, even driving it gently for running in new rings, but will I ever race again, if I cant get this problem sorted and remove the duff data from the map the car will blow again, and I'm at the end of the road with this issue, will I ever be able to trust the map to drive hard again ?
Need an expert to sort this out once and for all, trouble is, I went to the experts in the first place didn't I
Thanks for your time reading this long post, open to all comments / questions.
Finally, consider enjoying your Scoob stock, you wont enjoy it as much as if you tuned it, but you may enjoy it for a lot longer
Regards to all,
Jules.
Last edited by julesf; 24 July 2014 at 01:42 AM.
24 July 2014 | 01:14 AM
#44
[QUOTE=Paben;11474857]Huge reputations are created on these forums by people quoting the good experiences of others as if they were their own. Engine builders, tuners, mappers, paint sprayers, kit suppliers et al are proposed by people who often have never been near the person they are recommending.
When I had the front of my car smashed by a deer collision I had lots of suggestions that Ryan/prodriverules was the only guy to see, even if I had to wait six months to see the car again. It was so worth it! Wot?? Actually I took it to a local chap who did a fabulous job and turned it around in a week.
/\ good reviews on here of him left me with my pride and joy in tatters
When I had the front of my car smashed by a deer collision I had lots of suggestions that Ryan/prodriverules was the only guy to see, even if I had to wait six months to see the car again. It was so worth it! Wot?? Actually I took it to a local chap who did a fabulous job and turned it around in a week.
/\ good reviews on here of him left me with my pride and joy in tatters
24 July 2014 | 02:58 AM
#45
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 2,626
Likes: 0
From: I'll check my gps
Great post julesf.
In fact a big thanks to the op for the thread, been reading lots of "what's it worth" threads and keeping my self amused in NSR reading crap about the press.
It's good to be reminded once in a while why iam here, there's a lot of miss leading information on here but once you pick your way through the rubbish you'll find a great bunch of people with a wealth of experience and knowledge.
In fact a big thanks to the op for the thread, been reading lots of "what's it worth" threads and keeping my self amused in NSR reading crap about the press.
It's good to be reminded once in a while why iam here, there's a lot of miss leading information on here but once you pick your way through the rubbish you'll find a great bunch of people with a wealth of experience and knowledge.
24 July 2014 | 07:53 AM
#46
24 July 2014 | 09:01 AM
#47
Scooby Newbie
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 19
Likes: 0
From: Eastleigh (Southampton)
Great post julesf.
In fact a big thanks to the op for the thread, been reading lots of "what's it worth" threads and keeping my self amused in NSR reading crap about the press.
It's good to be reminded once in a while why iam here, there's a lot of miss leading information on here but once you pick your way through the rubbish you'll find a great bunch of people with a wealth of experience and knowledge.
In fact a big thanks to the op for the thread, been reading lots of "what's it worth" threads and keeping my self amused in NSR reading crap about the press.
It's good to be reminded once in a while why iam here, there's a lot of miss leading information on here but once you pick your way through the rubbish you'll find a great bunch of people with a wealth of experience and knowledge.
It's just great to be able to drive the car again after so long, really great
,
24 July 2014 | 09:07 AM
#48
Scooby Regular
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 23,118
Likes: 150
From: Notts
Finding real experts rather than claimed experts is never easy
Does bring on a very serious question,,,,,,,, are there any female mappers out there?
24 July 2014 | 09:18 AM
#49
exactly the reason I started working on my cars myself. My first car was an audi 80 with a 3A engine, it was not really working, I went to a mechanic, who told me first thing, that he needs to meet his girlfriend tonight and needs some money, but his boss did not pay him his salary yet, so he takes me out of his hours, but will charge me a bit more.
he took the air box rubber manifold off, removed the metallic mesh, threw it in to the bin, and pulled some connectors out (which i found out just later), charged me round 200 quid for a 30 minute job. the car was running monstrous for the first 3 miles until I switched the ignition off, then it would not start anymore.
after that, I took out the service manual and, well, it took me 3 weeks, but I repaired the car. The bush mechanic had pulled out some plugs and defaulted the ECU, it was running in, say, emergency mode for a couple of hours until it fried itself...
anyhow, I have seen the culprit being advertised on facebook a lot, and I thought to myself, that the prices he is charging for live road mapping, not dyno mapping are a bit over the top. 500 quid for a map without a dyno? is that not too much?
he took the air box rubber manifold off, removed the metallic mesh, threw it in to the bin, and pulled some connectors out (which i found out just later), charged me round 200 quid for a 30 minute job. the car was running monstrous for the first 3 miles until I switched the ignition off, then it would not start anymore.
after that, I took out the service manual and, well, it took me 3 weeks, but I repaired the car. The bush mechanic had pulled out some plugs and defaulted the ECU, it was running in, say, emergency mode for a couple of hours until it fried itself...
anyhow, I have seen the culprit being advertised on facebook a lot, and I thought to myself, that the prices he is charging for live road mapping, not dyno mapping are a bit over the top. 500 quid for a map without a dyno? is that not too much?
There's a lot of money to be made in mapping and it's generally cash so I doubt the Exchequer sees all of it.
24 July 2014 | 10:54 AM
#50
24 July 2014 | 11:25 AM
#51
Scooby Regular
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: Watford
however, when you just think of it - a single power run on a rolling road (surrey rolling road) costs you 40 quid (on special occasions, I must note), and if a mapping session takes you, say, an hour within which you can do like 5 power runs, then, well, how much does that leave to the mapper?
hence all of this business is screwed - a "mapper" will do one run to establish what you have and log, then do his adjustments and do another run just to show your power gain and pocket the rest. Of course, taking more money for any additional extras - launch control, anti lag, switchable maps, etc. etc.
greed, pure greed.
regarding the culprit and road mapping, however, I have absolutely no words, a straight road power run in the 5th gear and your map is done is hardly worth 500 quid.
24 July 2014 | 11:35 AM
#52
always heard good things regarding duncan, plus he's always given me good advice when i had my car.
i chose simon to map car as his rep is top, but duncan never failed to reply promptly when i did message him
i've had my car mapped by 3 people, neil @ slowboy, simon JGM and MartynJ @ enginetuner who i all recommend highly
wiley
i chose simon to map car as his rep is top, but duncan never failed to reply promptly when i did message him
i've had my car mapped by 3 people, neil @ slowboy, simon JGM and MartynJ @ enginetuner who i all recommend highly
wiley
24 July 2014 | 11:41 AM
#53
that raises a question - what is good value for a map? I have never mapped a car, but have been looking out for a fair few of them - the prices just astonish me. cheapest I have found was 350 quid.
however, when you just think of it - a single power run on a rolling road (surrey rolling road) costs you 40 quid (on special occasions, I must note), and if a mapping session takes you, say, an hour within which you can do like 5 power runs, then, well, how much does that leave to the mapper?
hence all of this business is screwed - a "mapper" will do one run to establish what you have and log, then do his adjustments and do another run just to show your power gain and pocket the rest. Of course, taking more money for any additional extras - launch control, anti lag, switchable maps, etc. etc.
greed, pure greed.
regarding the culprit and road mapping, however, I have absolutely no words, a straight road power run in the 5th gear and your map is done is hardly worth 500 quid.
however, when you just think of it - a single power run on a rolling road (surrey rolling road) costs you 40 quid (on special occasions, I must note), and if a mapping session takes you, say, an hour within which you can do like 5 power runs, then, well, how much does that leave to the mapper?
hence all of this business is screwed - a "mapper" will do one run to establish what you have and log, then do his adjustments and do another run just to show your power gain and pocket the rest. Of course, taking more money for any additional extras - launch control, anti lag, switchable maps, etc. etc.
greed, pure greed.
regarding the culprit and road mapping, however, I have absolutely no words, a straight road power run in the 5th gear and your map is done is hardly worth 500 quid.
24 July 2014 | 12:08 PM
#55
I can't say I've seen major negativity towards Graham before? I've not used him but know people who have and have been happy, I also have another 2 guys in the pipeline for an os map who are now reading this and thinking 
So who apart from the op had PERSONAL experiences they can comment on? Or is it just another word of mouth where "well I was told this and that" with no proof, like everything else that gets spouted on here that's often wrong
Would really like to hear people's thoughts as I know the guys are reading this who are getting mapped shortly.
So who apart from the op had PERSONAL experiences they can comment on? Or is it just another word of mouth where "well I was told this and that" with no proof, like everything else that gets spouted on here that's often wrong
Would really like to hear people's thoughts as I know the guys are reading this who are getting mapped shortly.
24 July 2014 | 12:19 PM
#57
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 880
Likes: 0
From: Aylesbury
My car is mapped by Duncan and i have to say Ive had no problems the car runs lovely, I will be using Duncan again shortly to do the next round of mods.
I think alot of this is one down to the car its use how heavy the driver is on the right peddle but also down to servicing, quality of parts etc, if you buy ebay ****e expect your engine to pop once mapped.
I dont think its fair to judge mappers based on so little information.
I think alot of this is one down to the car its use how heavy the driver is on the right peddle but also down to servicing, quality of parts etc, if you buy ebay ****e expect your engine to pop once mapped.
I dont think its fair to judge mappers based on so little information.
24 July 2014 | 12:19 PM
#58
I was waiting for someone to mention his nickname
I always find it odd when someone says that someone is a great mapper. How would anyone who doesn't understand mapping know if said mapper is great or not. Are they great because the car made loads of power, or because it didn't blow up, or because he seemed a really nice chap and made decent tea ???
How do you define a great mapper ??
I always find it odd when someone says that someone is a great mapper. How would anyone who doesn't understand mapping know if said mapper is great or not. Are they great because the car made loads of power, or because it didn't blow up, or because he seemed a really nice chap and made decent tea ???
How do you define a great mapper ??
24 July 2014 | 12:23 PM
#59
Dunc mapped mine. Spent a long time making sure everything was right. He's always been on the end of a phone when I've needed him too with questions since then. Very helpful and great after sales service.
Car has run perfectly in the years since and I've been 100% happy.
Car has run perfectly in the years since and I've been 100% happy.
Last edited by BrownPantsRacing; 24 July 2014 at 12:24 PM.
