dpb

Strictly speaking that's 4th...

Matteeboy

Legitimate asylum seekers yes.
But religion has f**k all to do with it.

JTaylor

I'll think you'll find it does.

dpb

They're just a bunch of thugs using religion as some kind of bargaining tool

JTaylor

Who are?

JTaylor

So on the grounds that you work with some literalists, you'd deny asylum to people about whom you know very little? What if the thirty thousand Iraqi Christians were literalists, would you leave them to their jizya, convert or death options? Allowed in if they are allegoricalist or simply culturally Christian?

The fact is Britain has had a significant hand in creating the vacuum that's led to the rise and rise of I.S. Because of that, we are duty bound to open our doors to one of the oldest Christian groups on the planet.

dpb

You could say same for many countries around the world

Don't see why Christians should take preference, Turkeys a lot closer - plenty Christians there

JTaylor

Turkish Christians have not been told to pay Jizya, convert to Islam, leave (with nothing more than the clothes in which they stand) or face death. Do you have a scintilla of insight as to what the Iraqi Christians are facing? I.S. Have literally crucified Christians for failing to comply. We owe it to them to help.

jonc

Is it any different to the Christian crusades of the past? Muslims then faced the same choices.

dpb

Well I don't agree

JTaylor

A lot's happened over the past 800 or so years.

jonc

Religion hasn't changed a lot in 800 years though.

JTaylor

With the Reformation and then the Enlightenment Christianity's changed dramatically.

hodgy0_2

you certainly haven't - the enlightenment passed you by

with the "gods will" cop out

JTaylor

The sovereignty of God has remained constant.

hodgy0_2

like I said pre-enlightenment Panglossian claptrap

JTaylor

To liken Him and His sovereignty to "pre-enlightenment Panglossian claptrap" you ought to present me and anyone reading with a definition of both God and Sovereignty. Without this, I and others can't be sure that you understand the concepts you dismiss. Good word, though.

hodgy0_2

I am likening you - god does not exist

dpb

Crucifixion seems quite apt btw, don't you think.

JTaylor

You're likening me or what I say? It can't be me so you must mean what I have said and if the latter is true then it must be the notion that "God is sovereign" is "pre-enlightenment Panglossian claptrap". I put it to you that in order for your statement to stand-up you must first define God and then define His sovereignty. If you fail to do this you're simply refuting and dismissing words, not concepts.

hodgy0_2

like i said simple meaningless gibberish

the laughable irony is that born on the other side of the cultural divide you would be strapping on a suicide vest to do "gods will"

deep down you know it too

JTaylor

Well, you're perfectly entitled to duck the challenge, Hodgy. You always do.

jonc

If by sovreignty of God you mean the teaching of the Bible that God has absolute control and direction of everything, then the persecution happening in Iraq is God's will and is allowing it to happen. Are you looking at this issue from a religious or a humanitarian point of view?

hodgy0_2

lol - we know you use the biggest cop out going

JTaylor

God also granted us free will and as such we, on our beautiful island, have the ability to grant asylum to the persecuted.

Both, they aren't mutually exclusive (despite what fundamental atheists would have us believe). As a human, I believe in extending a hand to those in need, as a Christian, I believe in extending a hand to those in need.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

A religious nut job asking for us to let in more religious nut jobs.

This place is starting to get better.

Feeling a little out numbered by the recent influx of the enemy are we.

JTaylor

A little.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

God bothering has it's downsides, honesty being one of them.

jonc

God has not given us free will if by definition, his sovreignty can't allow it, you make choices governed by religious teachings, you are never free of God and therefore neither is your will. I'm not questioning whether because you are a Christian or not we should help them, but rather should we help them because they are Christian?

JTaylor

Big and fascinating subject! If you want to start a thread on it I'll do my best to give you my perspective, Jon.

The reason we should help is because they are Christian, yes. It's absolutely because they are Christian that they are being persecuted. I'd extend that to Shia Muslims; whilst they have Iran, Southern Iraq, Kurdish controlled Iraq, Lebanon and other places to take refuge, if they came knocking on the UK's door I for one would like to see it opened. Same for atheists and Sunni apostates and moderates who can't tolerate the fundamentalism of I.S. I'll repeat: we helped create the vacuum, therefor we have a moral obligation to help those affected.