Billet turbos, what's with the hype?
30 August 2014, 11:12 PM
#31
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You don't need experience.
And as SJ has said, you wouldn't notice the difference yourself.
Bit like surfing on ADSL or fibre optic.
But physics tells you the one is faster than the other.
So, are you able to discern the difference in spool times between a billet and non-billet turbo (of the same model that is) ?
Are you the white-beard master that SJ refers to?
30 August 2014, 11:28 PM
#32
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You're comparing a material against a method of suspension.
We've covered materials - weight, momentum, inertia etc which is all about the ability to rotate the wheel.
Now you're considering friction and its effect on the ability of the wheel to rotate.
Again, there's plenty of threads discussing the different methods and designs used to enable the wheel to spin as effectively and efficiently as possible.
Tbh you'll do your head in trying to get around all the techno talk etc.
Best is to look at the threads asking 'best turbo for xxxbhp'.
Loads of practical experience and reasons why the posters eventually choose the one they had.
I assume that what you're after is satisfaction, the confidence of knowing that you've purchased one that's a) recommended; and b) stood the test of time.
People tell you that.
All physics does is make you manic, looking to get the theoretical ideal, and you end up with loads of 'options'.
Let real people - and more importantly your professional engine builder - provide a solution you'll be happy with.
30 August 2014, 11:46 PM
#33
Ali you've muddied the waters further here 
Billet turbos command a premium over non billet. What you're saying (and others) is that a billet turbo is not necessarily better than a non billet. It's about the complete design.
That would be fine BUT we are being charged a premium for 'billet' turbos. When they may or may not be any better than a non billet! Is it a case of marketing hyperbole again?!
Billet turbos command a premium over non billet. What you're saying (and others) is that a billet turbo is not necessarily better than a non billet. It's about the complete design.
That would be fine BUT we are being charged a premium for 'billet' turbos. When they may or may not be any better than a non billet! Is it a case of marketing hyperbole again?!
That's the problem; something well made, built in-house commands a high premium and should perform. But as you know this is the automotive aftermarket sector and there are those out there who will cobble their own efforts together or buy something in and put their own branding on it then will say this and that is best if means it will turn a profit. We see it with exhausts and filters all the time...like £1500 exhaust systems that nets a whopping 5bhp net gain and a load of drone.
Granted turbos are lot more complex than that and there are external variables which effect how they perform as well as what the owner wants. One size certainly doesn't fit all. But we see all the big names offering these, and unless its something cobbled together in China, its very likely they are better than a stock off the shelf unit. But, when asked who machined them, who designed them, who built them they go a bit quiet......I didn't a see a CNC machine last time I was at the clinic....did you? (Sorry SC, just using you as an example, nothing more). Point being what exactly are you buying...the brand or the turbo? My main question is are some tuners/retailers putting their own branding on the exact same turbo (or compressor wheel) as being sold by someone else?
Look here: http://www.xsboostturbochargers.com/...td05-td06-18g/
Someone please tell me that for just $130 parts outlay I can mod a stock turbo to make my own super duper hybrid billet turbo. I doubt it, otherwise we'd all be doing it; The old saying....a little knowledge etc..LOL
I guess so long as it performs well, it shouldn't matter. But I'm always into the details...Even the useless stuff, like for example I know Borgers made the wheel arch liners for Ford, G Clancey used to cast blank cams for BMWs, and Cosworth do not make their cambelts - nobody usually needs to know that - but I do
.
31 August 2014, 11:04 AM
#37
Scooby Regular
I ran a gt35r non billet wheel on a .63 housing and I was making full boost on a 2.5ltr engine at 3400/3500rpm I then went with a billet gt35r and a .82 housing but on a 2.35ltr.
I should of had more lag in theory but the pick up point was exactly the same and due to the better turbo you can run it on higher boost so mine was ran at 2.3bar
I should of had more lag in theory but the pick up point was exactly the same and due to the better turbo you can run it on higher boost so mine was ran at 2.3bar
31 August 2014, 03:16 PM
#38
The 2.5ltr is will put the turbo on boost much earlier than any of the oem engines and add that to a small housing and spool was pretty instant for a rotated turbo, I then went to a bigger turbo and a less displacement engine so in theory it should of had more lag but it didn't it was exactly the same hence the billet wheels are worth the cash
31 August 2014, 05:33 PM
#39
Two other factors to consider Busta
One is strength - My cast wheeled MD321T+ is very strong it has survived 2 engines letting go. One was a very big one way north of 100mph. Clean bill of health from lateral. How a billet wheeled turbo would have coped, perhaps better perhaps worse, dunno. I am massively impressed with the strength of this MD I have.
Cost benefit - It would have cost a lot to upgrade this to a billet version. I personally decided that I wanted to spend the money else where. As many other factors effect boost/spool ect. I for instance have a very high compression engine with very tight tolerances I only run 1.6bar. Harvey made me an uppipe to work with exact turbo and he and bob r spent a fair bit of time in the car making it work ect ect.
Just a couple of factors to mull over
One is strength - My cast wheeled MD321T+ is very strong it has survived 2 engines letting go. One was a very big one way north of 100mph. Clean bill of health from lateral. How a billet wheeled turbo would have coped, perhaps better perhaps worse, dunno. I am massively impressed with the strength of this MD I have.
Cost benefit - It would have cost a lot to upgrade this to a billet version. I personally decided that I wanted to spend the money else where. As many other factors effect boost/spool ect. I for instance have a very high compression engine with very tight tolerances I only run 1.6bar. Harvey made me an uppipe to work with exact turbo and he and bob r spent a fair bit of time in the car making it work ect ect.
Just a couple of factors to mull over
Last edited by Steve Whitehorn; 31 August 2014 at 05:34 PM.
31 August 2014, 05:49 PM
#40
I do what I do best LOL. To me the whole package is important, not the buzzwords. I mean a modded/hybrid TD05 is better than a stock one, but is it better than a GT30 hybrid? (i.e MD321)
That's the problem; something well made, built in-house commands a high premium and should perform. But as you know this is the automotive aftermarket sector and there are those out there who will cobble their own efforts together or buy something in and put their own branding on it then will say this and that is best if means it will turn a profit. We see it with exhausts and filters all the time...like £1500 exhaust systems that nets a whopping 5bhp net gain and a load of drone.
Granted turbos are lot more complex than that and there are external variables which effect how they perform as well as what the owner wants. One size certainly doesn't fit all. But we see all the big names offering these, and unless its something cobbled together in China, its very likely they are better than a stock off the shelf unit. But, when asked who machined them, who designed them, who built them they go a bit quiet......I didn't a see a CNC machine last time I was at the clinic....did you? (Sorry SC, just using you as an example, nothing more). Point being what exactly are you buying...the brand or the turbo? My main question is are some tuners/retailers putting their own branding on the exact same turbo (or compressor wheel) as being sold by someone else?
Look here: http://www.xsboostturbochargers.com/...td05-td06-18g/
Someone please tell me that for just $130 parts outlay I can mod a stock turbo to make my own super duper hybrid billet turbo. I doubt it, otherwise we'd all be doing it; The old saying....a little knowledge etc..LOL
I guess so long as it performs well, it shouldn't matter. But I'm always into the details...Even the useless stuff, like for example I know Borgers made the wheel arch liners for Ford, G Clancey used to cast blank cams for BMWs, and Cosworth do not make their cambelts - nobody usually needs to know that - but I do.
That's the problem; something well made, built in-house commands a high premium and should perform. But as you know this is the automotive aftermarket sector and there are those out there who will cobble their own efforts together or buy something in and put their own branding on it then will say this and that is best if means it will turn a profit. We see it with exhausts and filters all the time...like £1500 exhaust systems that nets a whopping 5bhp net gain and a load of drone.
Granted turbos are lot more complex than that and there are external variables which effect how they perform as well as what the owner wants. One size certainly doesn't fit all. But we see all the big names offering these, and unless its something cobbled together in China, its very likely they are better than a stock off the shelf unit. But, when asked who machined them, who designed them, who built them they go a bit quiet......I didn't a see a CNC machine last time I was at the clinic....did you? (Sorry SC, just using you as an example, nothing more). Point being what exactly are you buying...the brand or the turbo? My main question is are some tuners/retailers putting their own branding on the exact same turbo (or compressor wheel) as being sold by someone else?
Look here: http://www.xsboostturbochargers.com/...td05-td06-18g/
Someone please tell me that for just $130 parts outlay I can mod a stock turbo to make my own super duper hybrid billet turbo. I doubt it, otherwise we'd all be doing it; The old saying....a little knowledge etc..LOL
I guess so long as it performs well, it shouldn't matter. But I'm always into the details...Even the useless stuff, like for example I know Borgers made the wheel arch liners for Ford, G Clancey used to cast blank cams for BMWs, and Cosworth do not make their cambelts - nobody usually needs to know that - but I do
.I'm rambling but what I'm saying is if one requires say 400bhp it may not be a prerequisite to pay 1k+ for a fancy branded turbo when someone with adequate tooling could build one for a lot less. Or if you simply send your existing turbo to have have bigger wheels put in. Isn't that some suppliers do anyway?
Apologies if the above doesn't make sense, I've read it back and it's lost me!
31 August 2014, 06:48 PM
#41
Scooby Regular
Two other factors to consider Busta
One is strength - My cast wheeled MD321T+ is very strong it has survived 2 engines letting go. One was a very big one way north of 100mph. Clean bill of health from lateral. How a billet wheeled turbo would have coped, perhaps better perhaps worse, dunno. I am massively impressed with the strength of this MD I have.
Cost benefit - It would have cost a lot to upgrade this to a billet version. I personally decided that I wanted to spend the money else where. As many other factors effect boost/spool ect. I for instance have a very high compression engine with very tight tolerances I only run 1.6bar. Harvey made me an uppipe to work with exact turbo and he and bob r spent a fair bit of time in the car making it work ect ect.
Just a couple of factors to mull over
One is strength - My cast wheeled MD321T+ is very strong it has survived 2 engines letting go. One was a very big one way north of 100mph. Clean bill of health from lateral. How a billet wheeled turbo would have coped, perhaps better perhaps worse, dunno. I am massively impressed with the strength of this MD I have.
Cost benefit - It would have cost a lot to upgrade this to a billet version. I personally decided that I wanted to spend the money else where. As many other factors effect boost/spool ect. I for instance have a very high compression engine with very tight tolerances I only run 1.6bar. Harvey made me an uppipe to work with exact turbo and he and bob r spent a fair bit of time in the car making it work ect ect.
Just a couple of factors to mull over
Billet is stronger than cast.
31 August 2014, 08:00 PM
#42
It has had the end of spark plug through it on one occasion and a lot of **** fired out the exhaust on another let go. So quite a bit has passed through it.
Interesting to know that billet is stronger than cast (thinking about it, it makes sense that it would be)
Interesting to know that billet is stronger than cast (thinking about it, it makes sense that it would be)
31 August 2014, 08:11 PM
#43
Scooby Regular
That sounds like a good dose of luck then.
However not to confuse in this discussion, it's the compressor wheel that's usually billet, not the exhaust turbine.
However not to confuse in this discussion, it's the compressor wheel that's usually billet, not the exhaust turbine.
01 September 2014, 01:27 PM
#46
Not really; Its cheaper to prototype (CADCAM etc), and cheaper for low volume production. But its more costly as production volumes go up as the method is time consuming, produces more waste and the raw material costs more.
The labour cost of building a custom/modified/hybrid turbo is the same regardless of the type of wheel used, as the assembly, inspection and balancing is teh same.
Last edited by ALi-B; 01 September 2014 at 01:30 PM.
01 September 2014, 01:37 PM
#47
So, just been thinking about this...with so much marketing focus on compressor wheels, very little is mentioned about the turbine......not even the material.
Which is better? Titanium aluminide or Inconel? And who uses what?
Same can be said the housing, cores and bearings.....stock or custom?
Which is better? Titanium aluminide or Inconel? And who uses what?
Same can be said the housing, cores and bearings.....stock or custom?
Last edited by ALi-B; 01 September 2014 at 01:40 PM.
01 September 2014, 07:38 PM
#48
Scooby Regular
Have you got a lot of spare time or something!?
You're not going to get definitive answers.... if such existed, we still wouldn't be finding new combinations of "parts" to provide improvements. There is nothing out there "parts" wise that hasn't been available for a long time.
The skill (time and effort) is building a turbo from the "parts bin", that delivers the optimum results for a specific application. There are 100's of combinations, so you'll appreciate that many configurations have yet to be tried I suspect.
If you want to understand a few more things about turbo design, have a look at this video:
You're not going to get definitive answers.... if such existed, we still wouldn't be finding new combinations of "parts" to provide improvements. There is nothing out there "parts" wise that hasn't been available for a long time.
The skill (time and effort) is building a turbo from the "parts bin", that delivers the optimum results for a specific application. There are 100's of combinations, so you'll appreciate that many configurations have yet to be tried I suspect.
If you want to understand a few more things about turbo design, have a look at this video:
02 September 2014, 10:36 AM
#49
Scooby Regular
I'm looking at turbos and the ranges etc and seeing billets come up, so I'm thinking they must be the shizzle out there right now.
But as I research deeper as I do with most things as I'm never happy with good reviews until I find bad reviews that 'make sense'.
Then I came across this, quoted by someone from Borg Warner-
"BW AirWerks - In general... yes, we can make anything if you want to pay for it In the performance and/or racing world though, there is really no benefit to using a "billet" CW other than it's shinny. Basically, billet, or FMW (Forged Milled Wheel) compressors came about due to OE applications requiring them. When a turbo is constantly being cycled from high speed to low speed, the wheel becomes fatigued and can eventually lead to a hub burst (CW splits in half). Imagine the compressor acting like a big drag slick like you see on top fuel cars; during the burnout, you can see them get skinny and "grow" in height... On a much smaller scale, the CW sees this same process over and over again, and over time this weakens the wheel, eventually leading to a fracture and possibly a hub burst. Now ask your self how many times you've seen a race car's CW split in half... I have never, and I've seen a LOT of failures. Even the billet aluminum isn't enough in some newer applications and we've turned to titanium which in its FMW form, is nearly indestructible. I've heard all the propaganda surrounding the billet wheel myths: higher boost capability, higher flow, higher efficiency, etc... The higher boost capability is the only one which is true, but not because it's machined and not true for racing use. OE diesel applications using FMW compressors can run higher boost pressures more reliably simply because they are less susceptible to fatigue as they're cycled from higher speeds (required to make more pressure) to low speeds.
So, why would anyone offer a billet wheel to the racing/performance market? Couple/three reasons:
- Some people just want them because they look really nice... and are willing to pay the cost difference.
- Because it already exists in an OE production application and it's easily installed into performance turbos, sometimes they're even interchangeable with existing cast wheels.
- Applications where a cast wheel does not exist (maybe a larger inducer is needed) or production volumes are believed to never be high enough to justify tooling costs.
Are they cheaper than cast wheels? ...NO. Even in high production volumes, a billet wheel will always be more expensive than a cast wheel. However, if a company wants to make a compressor all their own (not using an existing "big" turbo manufacture's wheel ie. BW, Garrett, Holset) it would most likely be cheaper as they would have to tool up to make all the cast versions. If a company makes a mistake in the design of a billet wheel, they can simply keep changing the program until they get something that works... The OE manufacturer does all the development work up front to arrive at the best possible design for what's needed. Once the design is finalized, a "master wheel" is machined and used for the tooling master... that's right, all cast wheels get their start from a very nice billet wheel that when tooling is made, creates the same exact performance characteristics in a much cheaper and faster to produce cast version.
Phew... Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but hopefully this helps explain why billet wheels exist. Short version is billet wheels are no better than cast wheels for any performance or racing application I'm aware of... but they sure do look great!
But as I research deeper as I do with most things as I'm never happy with good reviews until I find bad reviews that 'make sense'.
Then I came across this, quoted by someone from Borg Warner-
"BW AirWerks - In general... yes, we can make anything if you want to pay for it In the performance and/or racing world though, there is really no benefit to using a "billet" CW other than it's shinny. Basically, billet, or FMW (Forged Milled Wheel) compressors came about due to OE applications requiring them. When a turbo is constantly being cycled from high speed to low speed, the wheel becomes fatigued and can eventually lead to a hub burst (CW splits in half). Imagine the compressor acting like a big drag slick like you see on top fuel cars; during the burnout, you can see them get skinny and "grow" in height... On a much smaller scale, the CW sees this same process over and over again, and over time this weakens the wheel, eventually leading to a fracture and possibly a hub burst. Now ask your self how many times you've seen a race car's CW split in half... I have never, and I've seen a LOT of failures. Even the billet aluminum isn't enough in some newer applications and we've turned to titanium which in its FMW form, is nearly indestructible. I've heard all the propaganda surrounding the billet wheel myths: higher boost capability, higher flow, higher efficiency, etc... The higher boost capability is the only one which is true, but not because it's machined and not true for racing use. OE diesel applications using FMW compressors can run higher boost pressures more reliably simply because they are less susceptible to fatigue as they're cycled from higher speeds (required to make more pressure) to low speeds.
So, why would anyone offer a billet wheel to the racing/performance market? Couple/three reasons:
- Some people just want them because they look really nice... and are willing to pay the cost difference.
- Because it already exists in an OE production application and it's easily installed into performance turbos, sometimes they're even interchangeable with existing cast wheels.
- Applications where a cast wheel does not exist (maybe a larger inducer is needed) or production volumes are believed to never be high enough to justify tooling costs.
Are they cheaper than cast wheels? ...NO. Even in high production volumes, a billet wheel will always be more expensive than a cast wheel. However, if a company wants to make a compressor all their own (not using an existing "big" turbo manufacture's wheel ie. BW, Garrett, Holset) it would most likely be cheaper as they would have to tool up to make all the cast versions. If a company makes a mistake in the design of a billet wheel, they can simply keep changing the program until they get something that works... The OE manufacturer does all the development work up front to arrive at the best possible design for what's needed. Once the design is finalized, a "master wheel" is machined and used for the tooling master... that's right, all cast wheels get their start from a very nice billet wheel that when tooling is made, creates the same exact performance characteristics in a much cheaper and faster to produce cast version.
Phew... Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but hopefully this helps explain why billet wheels exist. Short version is billet wheels are no better than cast wheels for any performance or racing application I'm aware of... but they sure do look great!
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