2.5 engine ?
23 January 2015, 12:14 PM
#95
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[QUOTE=MOTORS S GT;11609314]
Sorry I read it as engine builders and not engine re-builders/failure diagnostics. I.e only building fast engines that suffer different failures to OE decks.
The general consensus is that 2.5 OE engines fail from stock (WRX) 226bhp power to Imprezas "braving" 450bhp so power doesn't really constitute failure based on that. Maybe if you've got away with 400bhp for years then push further?
Fitting liners etc is still prevention not an answer to the cure. Fitting the parts that mainly fail doesn't answer why they fail or why they fail over other parts. These guys are pretty adamant the 2.5 failings can be overcome, maybe running a bit richer, over speccing the turbo with less aggressive tuning 666bhp isn't a small step up from the quoted 360-420 max it's poles apart.
They gave 3 possibilities, I corrected all possibilities. Rich Map/Bodged wiring/Broken sparkplug tip - which didn't answer the low compression on the notorious #3.
Sure can't, I'd like to know what percentage of 2.5's are built "too tightly" (In their eyes) though.
Did you not read what they posted on their OE 2.5 thread or the accompanying youtube vid info?
The engine wasn't just subjected to a 10 second blast once every few hours for the odd drag day.
"After multiple lapping days last fall and a race weekend with NARRA at Watkins Glen, this shortblock was far from new, but it got the job done."
So what do you think Martin, 2.5 a real contender if you sourced them checked them over and recommended a good mapper?
P.s. a lightweight crank pulley on a Impreza engine yay or nay?
Building engines and knowing what kills them are two different things, as you say there are factors inc owner error but also design flaws from OE, I took my car to the most reputable tuner at the time and he couldn't tell me why I had failure on #1 and #3
So you think that there is no connection between engine builders & fault finding, you are so wrong on many issues, how do you think we go forward without getting to the bottom of failures, we would still have the steam engine on your narrow outlook, to start with a couple of instances of moving forward by the way of failures on your beloved 2.5, why do think pinning liners & closed deck inserts came about, from failures of headgaskets, forged pistons for your 2.5, if the OE were up to supporting the power asked of them nobody would buy them, & would probably never be a viable option for a piston manufacturer to produce.
So you think that there is no connection between engine builders & fault finding, you are so wrong on many issues, how do you think we go forward without getting to the bottom of failures, we would still have the steam engine on your narrow outlook, to start with a couple of instances of moving forward by the way of failures on your beloved 2.5, why do think pinning liners & closed deck inserts came about, from failures of headgaskets, forged pistons for your 2.5, if the OE were up to supporting the power asked of them nobody would buy them, & would probably never be a viable option for a piston manufacturer to produce.
The general consensus is that 2.5 OE engines fail from stock (WRX) 226bhp power to Imprezas "braving" 450bhp so power doesn't really constitute failure based on that. Maybe if you've got away with 400bhp for years then push further?
Fitting liners etc is still prevention not an answer to the cure. Fitting the parts that mainly fail doesn't answer why they fail or why they fail over other parts. These guys are pretty adamant the 2.5 failings can be overcome, maybe running a bit richer, over speccing the turbo with less aggressive tuning 666bhp isn't a small step up from the quoted 360-420 max it's poles apart.
I cannot vouch for whoever you took your car to for diagnoses, but I would need to find the cause of any issue before any repair could take place, otherwise you end up going down the same route in the future.
So if Innovative Tuning allowed for all these factors, and sourced a 2.5 which didn't have "tight OE tolerances," then their 666+ bhp in a 2.5 can't be sniffed at?
To run an engine with cranked up boost levels etc for 10 secs is hardly rocket science, & certainly will not suffer your quoted heat issues, as for tight tolerences, it depends on use, & materials, if you have your road car with large piston to bore clearences, I am sure you would be the first to complain it sounds like a machine gun.
I would like to see this 2.5 built engine you quote do an hours race flat out, if it lasted a season like that you would have a credible point, its quite apparent nobody over here runs a 2.5 in an elevated power spec with an OE block & liners for anything other than going down the shops.
I would like to see this 2.5 built engine you quote do an hours race flat out, if it lasted a season like that you would have a credible point, its quite apparent nobody over here runs a 2.5 in an elevated power spec with an OE block & liners for anything other than going down the shops.
The engine wasn't just subjected to a 10 second blast once every few hours for the odd drag day.
"After multiple lapping days last fall and a race weekend with NARRA at Watkins Glen, this shortblock was far from new, but it got the job done."
So what do you think Martin, 2.5 a real contender if you sourced them checked them over and recommended a good mapper?
P.s. a lightweight crank pulley on a Impreza engine yay or nay?
Last edited by RS_Matt; 27 January 2015 at 11:05 AM.
23 January 2015, 06:10 PM
#99
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'Cus what ever it is I'd suggest you keep it to yourself cus it's clearly some seriously nasty stuff.
23 January 2015, 08:35 PM
#102
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Your quote was that £8k will only get you a rough wrx hatch. You are more than welcome to come have have a look at mine and I'll take you out and change your mind. I know you think that clayne has the only nice wrx hatch but others have nice cars aswell. Please don't assume all wrx hatch cars are crap because their not.
23 January 2015, 09:03 PM
#103
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WRX owners seem to have issues understanding what people write, you are the second in as many weeks who has misread something I've written and had a crywank about it, so here's my original quote for you where I state that £8k will get you a rough STI Hatch, not a WRX Hatch.
The fact you may have tuned your car well beyond the original specification does not mean I think you have a bad car.
The budget restricted OP doesn't have loads of money to chuck at a WRX to address its shortcomings, of which I feel there are too many. I'm sorry to say that I feel there are far better hatchback purchases for £8k. We're all entitled to opinions on here, there's no need to get butthurt about what someone else thinks.
The budget restricted OP doesn't have loads of money to chuck at a WRX to address its shortcomings, of which I feel there are too many. I'm sorry to say that I feel there are far better hatchback purchases for £8k. We're all entitled to opinions on here, there's no need to get butthurt about what someone else thinks.
23 January 2015, 09:38 PM
#104
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WRX owners seem to have issues understanding what people write, you are the second in as many weeks who has misread something I've written and had a crywank about it, so here's my original quote for you where I state that £8k will get you a rough STI Hatch, not a WRX Hatch.
The fact you may have tuned your car well beyond the original specification does not mean I think you have a bad car.
The budget restricted OP doesn't have loads of money to chuck at a WRX to address its shortcomings, of which I feel there are too many. I'm sorry to say that I feel there are far better hatchback purchases for £8k. We're all entitled to opinions on here, there's no need to get butthurt about what someone else thinks.
The fact you may have tuned your car well beyond the original specification does not mean I think you have a bad car.
The budget restricted OP doesn't have loads of money to chuck at a WRX to address its shortcomings, of which I feel there are too many. I'm sorry to say that I feel there are far better hatchback purchases for £8k. We're all entitled to opinions on here, there's no need to get butthurt about what someone else thinks.
Thank you for clearing that up, and you are correct that we are all Intittled to our opiniun and I was stating that I believe you are wrong in thinking that the wrx hatch 2.5 is a bad car because it isn't, I'm living breathing proof of that. The op wanted honest advice on the 2.5 engine which I gave but I do take offence when I see thing written about the wrx it's as much part of the subaru ethos as any other subaru not sub standard as is made out. I have been around subarus and sn for over 10 years and met so many nice people but get really frustrated by the comments on here. I'm sorry if you think I'm "crywanking" you obviously don't know me maybe speak to someone who does before commenting like you just have.
23 January 2015, 11:36 PM
#105
Thank you for clearing that up, and you are correct that we are all Intittled to our opiniun and I was stating that I believe you are wrong in thinking that the wrx hatch 2.5 is a bad car because it isn't, I'm living breathing proof of that. The op wanted honest advice on the 2.5 engine which I gave but I do take offence when I see thing written about the wrx it's as much part of the subaru ethos as any other subaru not sub standard as is made out. I have been around subarus and sn for over 10 years and met so many nice people but get really frustrated by the comments on here. I'm sorry if you think I'm "crywanking" you obviously don't know me maybe speak to someone who does before commenting like you just have.
24 January 2015, 12:36 AM
#106
WRX haters out in force again I see.
Just to CLARIFY.
STI= Crap suspension that knocks after 30k, Crap gearbox, Crap brakes, Crap interior, carlos fandango chav spoiler. tuneable to 450bhp but you need to enjoy the sensation of nothing below 4krpm and then everything for circa another 3k rpm then change gear, below that a 1,1 micra is faster.
WRX= real world road friendly suspension that lasts for over 100k and is still like NEW on mine at least, gears that are nicely matched to B road blasting 40mph to 90+ mph, black interior, CRAP BRAKES, subtle looks.
OK the WRX needs a few mods to make it handle and stop properly but so does the STI.
In reality if you want to save a few quid and end up with the fastest Newage Subaru ROAD car your better off starting with a WRX and taking it to around 320/330bhp with a Hybrid TD04 or SC32 some proper brakes and decent handling mods it WILL **** all over a 400+ bhp STI on the road and despite what the naysayers say if you can drive a bit you'll muller the STI up to 120mph, Need I say more.
TBH these days the UK STI doesn't make sense (10+ years old and mostly knackered) unless you like a blue interior and a big spoiler.
You can buy a forged engine for less than £2k and a 6 speed for £1500 which I'd only do if I was planing on 6krpm launches on a regular basis as well as running a stupidly large turbo that I could grow a beard in the time it takes to spool.
JDM STI I get due to the twin scroll extra creature comforts, better gear ratio's and better spec engine, but the UK STI in particular pre 2005 is a bag of **** and I wouldn't waste my money on one, it will be better spent upgrading a WRX, unless you care about badges and ironing boards.
Just to CLARIFY.
STI= Crap suspension that knocks after 30k, Crap gearbox, Crap brakes, Crap interior, carlos fandango chav spoiler. tuneable to 450bhp but you need to enjoy the sensation of nothing below 4krpm and then everything for circa another 3k rpm then change gear, below that a 1,1 micra is faster.
WRX= real world road friendly suspension that lasts for over 100k and is still like NEW on mine at least, gears that are nicely matched to B road blasting 40mph to 90+ mph, black interior, CRAP BRAKES, subtle looks.
OK the WRX needs a few mods to make it handle and stop properly but so does the STI.
In reality if you want to save a few quid and end up with the fastest Newage Subaru ROAD car your better off starting with a WRX and taking it to around 320/330bhp with a Hybrid TD04 or SC32 some proper brakes and decent handling mods it WILL **** all over a 400+ bhp STI on the road
and despite what the naysayers say if you can drive a bit you'll muller the STI up to 120mph, Need I say more. TBH these days the UK STI doesn't make sense (10+ years old and mostly knackered) unless you like a blue interior and a big spoiler.
You can buy a forged engine for less than £2k and a 6 speed for £1500 which I'd only do if I was planing on 6krpm launches on a regular basis as well as running a stupidly large turbo that I could grow a beard in the time it takes to spool.
JDM STI I get due to the twin scroll extra creature comforts, better gear ratio's and better spec engine, but the UK STI in particular pre 2005 is a bag of **** and I wouldn't waste my money on one, it will be better spent upgrading a WRX, unless you care about badges and ironing boards.
Last edited by ditchmyster; 24 January 2015 at 12:39 AM.
24 January 2015, 08:54 AM
#107
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WRX haters out in force again I see.
Just to CLARIFY.
STI= Crap suspension that knocks after 30k, Crap gearbox, Crap brakes, Crap interior, carlos fandango chav spoiler. tuneable to 450bhp but you need to enjoy the sensation of nothing below 4krpm and then everything for circa another 3k rpm then change gear, below that a 1,1 micra is faster.
WRX= real world road friendly suspension that lasts for over 100k and is still like NEW on mine at least, gears that are nicely matched to B road blasting 40mph to 90+ mph, black interior, CRAP BRAKES, subtle looks.
OK the WRX needs a few mods to make it handle and stop properly but so does the STI.
In reality if you want to save a few quid and end up with the fastest Newage Subaru ROAD car your better off starting with a WRX and taking it to around 320/330bhp with a Hybrid TD04 or SC32 some proper brakes and decent handling mods it WILL **** all over a 400+ bhp STI on the road and despite what the naysayers say if you can drive a bit you'll muller the STI up to 120mph, Need I say more.
TBH these days the UK STI doesn't make sense (10+ years old and mostly knackered) unless you like a blue interior and a big spoiler.
You can buy a forged engine for less than £2k and a 6 speed for £1500 which I'd only do if I was planing on 6krpm launches on a regular basis as well as running a stupidly large turbo that I could grow a beard in the time it takes to spool.
JDM STI I get due to the twin scroll extra creature comforts, better gear ratio's and better spec engine, but the UK STI in particular pre 2005 is a bag of **** and I wouldn't waste my money on one, it will be better spent upgrading a WRX, unless you care about badges and ironing boards.
Just to CLARIFY.
STI= Crap suspension that knocks after 30k, Crap gearbox, Crap brakes, Crap interior, carlos fandango chav spoiler. tuneable to 450bhp but you need to enjoy the sensation of nothing below 4krpm and then everything for circa another 3k rpm then change gear, below that a 1,1 micra is faster.
WRX= real world road friendly suspension that lasts for over 100k and is still like NEW on mine at least, gears that are nicely matched to B road blasting 40mph to 90+ mph, black interior, CRAP BRAKES, subtle looks.
OK the WRX needs a few mods to make it handle and stop properly but so does the STI.
In reality if you want to save a few quid and end up with the fastest Newage Subaru ROAD car your better off starting with a WRX and taking it to around 320/330bhp with a Hybrid TD04 or SC32 some proper brakes and decent handling mods it WILL **** all over a 400+ bhp STI on the road
and despite what the naysayers say if you can drive a bit you'll muller the STI up to 120mph, Need I say more. TBH these days the UK STI doesn't make sense (10+ years old and mostly knackered) unless you like a blue interior and a big spoiler.
You can buy a forged engine for less than £2k and a 6 speed for £1500 which I'd only do if I was planing on 6krpm launches on a regular basis as well as running a stupidly large turbo that I could grow a beard in the time it takes to spool.
JDM STI I get due to the twin scroll extra creature comforts, better gear ratio's and better spec engine, but the UK STI in particular pre 2005 is a bag of **** and I wouldn't waste my money on one, it will be better spent upgrading a WRX, unless you care about badges and ironing boards.
24 January 2015, 09:04 AM
#108
Ditchy your not saving a few quid by starting with a WRX, STi parts are worth a lot more then WRX parts, Stick for sale a VF35/43 turbo from a STi and it sells for £300 quid if not more, you try selling a TD04 from a WRX and your lucky to get £50 quid, same goes for the intercoolers, injectors,Brembo brakes, interior etc etc, it all mounts up,
Ok the WRX can be bought cheaper, but when you come to sell the STi will be worth more.
But to be honest both UK Impreza's are crap(WRX & STi), start with a newage JDM/Spec C and enjoy it in standard form/or minimal mods.
Ok the WRX can be bought cheaper, but when you come to sell the STi will be worth more.
But to be honest both UK Impreza's are crap(WRX & STi), start with a newage JDM/Spec C and enjoy it in standard form/or minimal mods.
24 January 2015, 09:08 AM
#109
Ditchy your not saving a few quid by starting with a WRX, STi parts are worth a lot more then WRX parts, Stick for sale a VF35/43 turbo from a STi and it sells for £300 quid if not more, you try selling a TD04 from a WRX and your lucky to get £50 quid, same goes for the intercoolers, injectors,Brembo brakes, interior etc etc, it all mounts up,
Ok the WRX can be bought cheaper, but when you come to sell the STi will be worth more.
But to be honest both UK Impreza's are crap(WRX & STi), start with a newage JDM/Spec C and enjoy it in standard form/or minimal mods.
Ok the WRX can be bought cheaper, but when you come to sell the STi will be worth more.
But to be honest both UK Impreza's are crap(WRX & STi), start with a newage JDM/Spec C and enjoy it in standard form/or minimal mods.
How the stroker going Ditchy
24 January 2015, 09:31 AM
#110
Scooby Regular
This place is hitting an all time low in some respects....... all this infighting is great! 
Personally, I don't have a problem with any individual challenging "the professionals". Why not.... but then it is the way you go about it, that can make or break being a ****.
There are way too many people on here taking information off the net and regurgitating it on here, without any real understanding of that information, context or the detail that supports that information. They also assume if it's on the net it's absolute fact...... there is probably more crap on the net, then there is good stuff imo.
Armchair engineers are obviously the future.
If you want to learn stuff, fine. But do your research, ask the right questions and most importantly LISTEN!
I've learnt so much over the past 10yrs, but most of that has been because I've got involved in things like with all the project work I have done. I love doing this kind of stuff, understanding theory and trying things out to see what results are achieved and then learning from that.
Reading only goes so far!
Personally, I don't have a problem with any individual challenging "the professionals". Why not.... but then it is the way you go about it, that can make or break being a ****.
There are way too many people on here taking information off the net and regurgitating it on here, without any real understanding of that information, context or the detail that supports that information. They also assume if it's on the net it's absolute fact...... there is probably more crap on the net, then there is good stuff imo.
Armchair engineers are obviously the future.
If you want to learn stuff, fine. But do your research, ask the right questions and most importantly LISTEN!
I've learnt so much over the past 10yrs, but most of that has been because I've got involved in things like with all the project work I have done. I love doing this kind of stuff, understanding theory and trying things out to see what results are achieved and then learning from that.
Reading only goes so far!
Last edited by Shaun; 24 January 2015 at 09:33 AM.
24 January 2015, 10:57 AM
#111
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Your so right, it's like when someone feels Ill they will go on the net and look up their symptoms and think their dying then find out they've just got flu, it's the same with car forums people read about the 2.5 engine problems and regurgitate it on here. I didn't wish to be bombarded and I approciate all subarus Sti wrx and uk turbo they all have their place but all I wanted to get accross is that I own a wrx hatch uk and it suits what I need it to do and if anyone ever asked my advise it would be if your on a budget like I was, you won't go far wrong than a wrx hatch if not then Sti. Weather you choose 2ltr or 2.5 is up to you but Iv had both and the 2.5 has loads of torque low Down and performs very well in a year of ownership it's never missed a beat that's all I'm saying.
24 January 2015, 11:33 AM
#112
Scooby Regular
ScoobyNet is getting like coronation street for men! I am only coming on to listen to all the stories and squabbles, and there is plenty of characters/actors on here also. eh Tubby/Matt!
24 January 2015, 01:20 PM
#113
Ditchy your not saving a few quid by starting with a WRX, STi parts are worth a lot more then WRX parts, Stick for sale a VF35/43 turbo from a STi and it sells for £300 quid if not more, you try selling a TD04 from a WRX and your lucky to get £50 quid, same goes for the intercoolers, injectors,Brembo brakes, interior etc etc, it all mounts up,
Ok the WRX can be bought cheaper, but when you come to sell the STi will be worth more.
But to be honest both UK Impreza's are crap(WRX & STi), start with a newage JDM/Spec C and enjoy it in standard form/or minimal mods.
Ok the WRX can be bought cheaper, but when you come to sell the STi will be worth more.
But to be honest both UK Impreza's are crap(WRX & STi), start with a newage JDM/Spec C and enjoy it in standard form/or minimal mods.
much better to port and billet my td04 and why would I buy second hand sti injectors when I can just re-flow mine and or fit an FPR A decent STI is going to set you back at least £8k and for what? so you can junk half the parts and get £5/700 of that back, that makes great economic sense
My Wrx came with PPP and AP4 pots, I have just had the shocks off to fit a set of PCA Dynamics springs and they were all in perfect working order, which is more than can be said of the **** ones they fit on the STI.
I paid £4k for it 3 1/2 years ago and it's been no trouble and cost next to nothing bar service parts, at the time I'd have probably had to pay close to £10k for an STI and fix or change the brakes, suspension and probably have the gearbox out to do the syncro's too, and of course do something about the gastly blue interior and the silly spoiler.
Yep I definitely should have bought an STI.
24 January 2015, 01:39 PM
#114
I had this argument with the WRX haters long before he did and proved the WRX PPP was quicker to 60mph, has more torque and hits it's peak sooner too, combined with the better matched gear ratios of the 5 speed it makes for a formidable foe once you spend a few quid on some handling mods and set it up properly (which is something the STI needs too) then it's more than capable of showing an STI a clean pair of heels.
But hey what do I know, I've only been driving cars and bikes for 32yrs and had various Subarus for 11yrs so as above, it says on the internet that the STI is better so it must be true.
But hey what do I know, I've only been driving cars and bikes for 32yrs and had various Subarus for 11yrs so as above, it says on the internet that the STI is better so it must be true.
24 January 2015, 01:42 PM
#115
Why would I sell my faster spooling turbo for a crap one that most sti owners get rid of as a first mod much better to port and billet my td04 and why would I buy second hand sti injectors when I can just re-flow mine and or fit an FPR
A decent STI is going to set you back at least £8k and for what? so you can junk half the parts and get £5/700 of that back, that makes great economic sense
My Wrx came with PPP and AP4 pots, I have just had the shocks off to fit a set of PCA Dynamics springs and they were all in perfect working order, which is more than can be said of the **** ones they fit on the STI.
I paid £4k for it 3 1/2 years ago and it's been no trouble and cost next to nothing bar service parts, at the time I'd have probably had to pay close to £10k for an STI and fix or change the brakes, suspension and probably have the gearbox out to do the syncro's too, and of course do something about the gastly blue interior and the silly spoiler.
Yep I definitely should have bought an STI.
much better to port and billet my td04 and why would I buy second hand sti injectors when I can just re-flow mine and or fit an FPR A decent STI is going to set you back at least £8k and for what? so you can junk half the parts and get £5/700 of that back, that makes great economic sense
My Wrx came with PPP and AP4 pots, I have just had the shocks off to fit a set of PCA Dynamics springs and they were all in perfect working order, which is more than can be said of the **** ones they fit on the STI.
I paid £4k for it 3 1/2 years ago and it's been no trouble and cost next to nothing bar service parts, at the time I'd have probably had to pay close to £10k for an STI and fix or change the brakes, suspension and probably have the gearbox out to do the syncro's too, and of course do something about the gastly blue interior and the silly spoiler.
Yep I definitely should have bought an STI.
I've had both and driven them for over 4 years in each case and while I agree the WRX can keep up to a point, It's no where near what you make it out to be but that's just my opinion and not dragged off the net so probably doesn't count in this case :P
Last edited by The Pink Ninja; 24 January 2015 at 01:45 PM.
24 January 2015, 01:58 PM
#116
You ever 'owned' a newage Sti ditch or just regurgitating the same old crap that's on the net...and having a go in a mates doesn't really count...and owned in the sense of property not doing him round the curburging?
I've had both and driven them for over 4 years in each case and while I agree the WRX can keep up to a point, It's no where near what you make it out to be but that's just my opinion and not dragged off the net so probably doesn't count in this case :P
I've had both and driven them for over 4 years in each case and while I agree the WRX can keep up to a point, It's no where near what you make it out to be but that's just my opinion and not dragged off the net so probably doesn't count in this case :P
Agree with the blue interior being nasty but it's easy to rectify as I bought the black spec c interior and sold my blue sti one on to none other than a wrx owner for £250
24 January 2015, 02:16 PM
#117
You ever 'owned' a newage Sti ditch or just regurgitating the same old crap that's on the net...and having a go in a mates doesn't really count...and owned in the sense of property not doing him round the curburging?
I've had both and driven them for over 4 years in each case and while I agree the WRX can keep up to a point, It's no where near what you make it out to be but that's just my opinion and not dragged off the net so probably doesn't count in this case :P
I've had both and driven them for over 4 years in each case and while I agree the WRX can keep up to a point, It's no where near what you make it out to be but that's just my opinion and not dragged off the net so probably doesn't count in this case :P
When I bought my 1st WRX new in 04 Well it was 03 but I didn't take delivery until 04. I took both out back to back and instantly discovered the STI's failings after about 10 mins but carried on driving it for about half an hour just to see if it would grow on me because I really wanted to buy the "Better" more expensive one, which was still £2k less than I was going to spend on the Volvo D5 I originally went there to purchase, in the end I went for the WRX because to my mind it was a package that worked better.
I have an STI but it's a Classic V3 Type R, which is a whole different kettle of fish to a Newage STI as you know, If I were ever to purchase a Newage STI it would be a Spec C, S202, or Standard JDM STI in that order dependant on which was the best example I could find at the time. HTH
24 January 2015, 07:14 PM
#120
Scooby Regular
I've owned both a JDM STI and a SPEC C. Both modified. The SPEC C is no more of a "drivers" car then a JDM STI imo. Both extremely competent, but one is more focussed..... but that doesn't make it any more of a "drivers" car because of that. Especially when you start tinkering with them..... and who doesn't do that in the world of Subaru.