Summonds for Careless Driving
03 May 2001, 02:51 PM
#61
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Well, I said I’d post the result of my court case, so here it is. Bear in mind that I already had 6 points for speeding from 18 months ago, and that this was another speeding offence (99 on the motorway).
After some legal wrangling …… 5 points and a £180 fine!!! To say I was gob smacked is to totally understate the case – at the very least I was expecting a £500+ fine if I **only** got 6 points. In reality I was expecting a 1-3 month ban and a £250+ fine.
I took the time to chat to the solicitor afterwards, both about my case and about the process in general. I hope that any of you in the same situation as myself find some or all of the advice I received to be of value.
1 Magistrates don’t hold it against you if you turn up with a solicitor. Quite the opposite – it shows that you’re taking the offence seriously.
2 If you plead guilty by post, then get summonsed to appear at a later date, you will almost certainly get a stiffer sentence than if you turned up in the first place.
3 A solicitor will make sure that you don’t reveal too much. I’m not saying that you should lie to the court, but there may be circumstances where you should keep your gob shut. In my case, I was on a bike at the time of the offence, but the summons stated I was in a car. In general magistrates don’t like bikes, so we just mentioned that I was driving rather than riding, and that my vehicle (by which they definitely meant ‘car’) was a Honda CBR. Presumably if I’d said Honda CBR900 Fireblade they’d have twigged … they've all heard of 'Blades.
4 When you go through the statement of means, be honest, but don’t forget ANY of your expenses. Did you remember insurance costs, TV licence, house insurance etc etc. Stick all that in (I’d forgotten until the solicitor pointed it out) and your disposable suddenly looks a fair bit smaller.
5 Look remorseful and worried. Even if you think it’s all a joke (and you won’t once you’re sitting in the court room, you really won’t), avoid ANYTHING that might be interpreted as a smile.
6 Think about what you say. Any questions from the bench are not likely to be deep probing pieces of cross-examination, but in any case don’t dig a hole for yourself. Have your story completely sorted out in your head before you go in, and stick to your script.
7 Don’t speed near Bow or Ealing. They’re the firmest/most evil magistrates on the face of the planet.
As I said above, I hope some of this helps. The solicitor I used was Andreas Serghis, who is an absolute star. Having tried him out, I’d recommend him to anyone.
Bros
After some legal wrangling …… 5 points and a £180 fine!!! To say I was gob smacked is to totally understate the case – at the very least I was expecting a £500+ fine if I **only** got 6 points. In reality I was expecting a 1-3 month ban and a £250+ fine.
I took the time to chat to the solicitor afterwards, both about my case and about the process in general. I hope that any of you in the same situation as myself find some or all of the advice I received to be of value.
1 Magistrates don’t hold it against you if you turn up with a solicitor. Quite the opposite – it shows that you’re taking the offence seriously.
2 If you plead guilty by post, then get summonsed to appear at a later date, you will almost certainly get a stiffer sentence than if you turned up in the first place.
3 A solicitor will make sure that you don’t reveal too much. I’m not saying that you should lie to the court, but there may be circumstances where you should keep your gob shut. In my case, I was on a bike at the time of the offence, but the summons stated I was in a car. In general magistrates don’t like bikes, so we just mentioned that I was driving rather than riding, and that my vehicle (by which they definitely meant ‘car’) was a Honda CBR. Presumably if I’d said Honda CBR900 Fireblade they’d have twigged … they've all heard of 'Blades.
4 When you go through the statement of means, be honest, but don’t forget ANY of your expenses. Did you remember insurance costs, TV licence, house insurance etc etc. Stick all that in (I’d forgotten until the solicitor pointed it out) and your disposable suddenly looks a fair bit smaller.
5 Look remorseful and worried. Even if you think it’s all a joke (and you won’t once you’re sitting in the court room, you really won’t), avoid ANYTHING that might be interpreted as a smile.
6 Think about what you say. Any questions from the bench are not likely to be deep probing pieces of cross-examination, but in any case don’t dig a hole for yourself. Have your story completely sorted out in your head before you go in, and stick to your script.
7 Don’t speed near Bow or Ealing. They’re the firmest/most evil magistrates on the face of the planet.
As I said above, I hope some of this helps. The solicitor I used was Andreas Serghis, who is an absolute star. Having tried him out, I’d recommend him to anyone.
Bros
03 May 2001, 03:21 PM
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Well done matey..
I am still swinging between posting it or appearing with a Solicitor...
I think the fact that less is read out if I post it seem a good, with a speeding offence you did 99mph it is an open shut thing, with an accident you never know what the Police report might say or hint at etc...
I have Andreas number and I might ring him...
time is running out as my case is 25th...
I really should decide what I am doing.
Congratulations Bros....
Off the subject but what Blade do you have? I have a MY98...in red...
I am still swinging between posting it or appearing with a Solicitor...
I think the fact that less is read out if I post it seem a good, with a speeding offence you did 99mph it is an open shut thing, with an accident you never know what the Police report might say or hint at etc...
I have Andreas number and I might ring him...
time is running out as my case is 25th...
I really should decide what I am doing.
Congratulations Bros....
Off the subject but what Blade do you have? I have a MY98...in red...
03 May 2001, 03:35 PM
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Oh you got a real one 
Mk 1 are a lovely machine.
I am considering selling my blade and getting a 600 or 750, not looking forward to this years insurance renewal...
But then I have put 47,000miles on the bike since I bought it new in Aug 98 so I don't fancy seeing how much it isn't worth now either.
Mk 1 are a lovely machine.
I am considering selling my blade and getting a 600 or 750, not looking forward to this years insurance renewal...
But then I have put 47,000miles on the bike since I bought it new in Aug 98 so I don't fancy seeing how much it isn't worth now either.
03 May 2001, 09:04 PM
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THE DIFFERENCE BTW THE OFFENCES WITHOUT DUE CARE AND RESONABLE CONSIDERATION IS USUALLY THE END RESULT IE DUE CARE = CRASH . REASONABLE CONSIDERATION + UPSETTING SOMEONE.
PLEAD NOT GUILTY AND GET ALL THE PAPERS YOU CAN FROM THE POLICE THEN MAKE A BALANCED DECISION ON ALL THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE, YOU CAN ALWAYS PLEAD G BEFORE THE COURT DATE. USUALLY THE OTHER WITNESSES WOULD HAVE FILLED OUT A PROFRMA AND WILL ONLY BE REQUIRD TO MAKE A STATEMENT IF THE POLICE BELIEVE YOU ARE PLEADING N/G. DONT LEAVE IT TOO CLOSE TO THE COURT DATE TO MAKE UP YOUR MIND OR YOU COULD GET STUNG FOR XPENCES. DONT SELL THE BIKE
PLEAD NOT GUILTY AND GET ALL THE PAPERS YOU CAN FROM THE POLICE THEN MAKE A BALANCED DECISION ON ALL THE EVIDENCE THAT YOU HAVE, YOU CAN ALWAYS PLEAD G BEFORE THE COURT DATE. USUALLY THE OTHER WITNESSES WOULD HAVE FILLED OUT A PROFRMA AND WILL ONLY BE REQUIRD TO MAKE A STATEMENT IF THE POLICE BELIEVE YOU ARE PLEADING N/G. DONT LEAVE IT TOO CLOSE TO THE COURT DATE TO MAKE UP YOUR MIND OR YOU COULD GET STUNG FOR XPENCES. DONT SELL THE BIKE
04 May 2001, 12:11 AM
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I am scared to say it, but I haven't been done on a bike, in 10years of riding.
Been pulled twice on a bike 9years ago but it was in Wrangler Colours and stood out like a sore thub, even though it was only a 125, but wasn't done for anything.
I have been done for speeding 3times, 3points each time the most recent of which was in November 96. All three were in a car, first two were normal cars (a fiesta and an Astra) and the last one was the day I picked up an MR2 which stood out a bit.
So I haven't had any trouble in the Scooby other than this accident.
Oh and I have been pulled on the Blade on the M25 once and lectured about how I should be riding, but then he added that I was riding fine anyway and they went over the bike with a fine tooth comb.
A friend of mine did get caught in an STI with gold wheels and a big spoiler... at 120 in a 60 and received a years ban. Whether if he has been in a white van he would have not been targeted I don't know.
I have heard of someone on a bike getting pulled for doing 80mph on a motorway amoungst 20odd cars also doing 80mph and the officer said that he only pulled him because he could target the laser at the headlight whcih was switch on in the day time easily.
Be safe be seen, so you can be nicked... not a good advert...
Been pulled twice on a bike 9years ago but it was in Wrangler Colours and stood out like a sore thub, even though it was only a 125, but wasn't done for anything.
I have been done for speeding 3times, 3points each time the most recent of which was in November 96. All three were in a car, first two were normal cars (a fiesta and an Astra) and the last one was the day I picked up an MR2 which stood out a bit.
So I haven't had any trouble in the Scooby other than this accident.
Oh and I have been pulled on the Blade on the M25 once and lectured about how I should be riding, but then he added that I was riding fine anyway and they went over the bike with a fine tooth comb.
A friend of mine did get caught in an STI with gold wheels and a big spoiler... at 120 in a 60 and received a years ban. Whether if he has been in a white van he would have not been targeted I don't know.
I have heard of someone on a bike getting pulled for doing 80mph on a motorway amoungst 20odd cars also doing 80mph and the officer said that he only pulled him because he could target the laser at the headlight whcih was switch on in the day time easily.
Be safe be seen, so you can be nicked... not a good advert...
04 May 2001, 12:33 AM
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Duke,
It seems clear to me that you should get a good solicitor and get in there and plead your case on not guilty. The reason your better pleading not guilty is that the charge states the overtake was bad and the initial cause of the accident, get the brief to explain why you are pleading not guilty. I would advise turning up with the best solicitor you can get and the guy mentioned earlier by Bros sounds the right man. Remember this conviction once its on there is there for 4 years and any subsequent speeding or anything else will muliply the damage.
He who represents himself in court has a fool for a client, you just have to see how fly Bros's brief was on the Fireblade thing to understand its a different game your playing and one where you have no knowledge.
Regards and best of Luck.
Cammy
It seems clear to me that you should get a good solicitor and get in there and plead your case on not guilty. The reason your better pleading not guilty is that the charge states the overtake was bad and the initial cause of the accident, get the brief to explain why you are pleading not guilty. I would advise turning up with the best solicitor you can get and the guy mentioned earlier by Bros sounds the right man. Remember this conviction once its on there is there for 4 years and any subsequent speeding or anything else will muliply the damage.
He who represents himself in court has a fool for a client, you just have to see how fly Bros's brief was on the Fireblade thing to understand its a different game your playing and one where you have no knowledge.
Regards and best of Luck.
Cammy
04 May 2001, 09:09 AM
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Duke,
I couldn't agree more with Nevr. Don't sell the bike - it'll be worth bugger all with 47k on it. Unless you sell it to me for a low low price!
If you're stuck for bike insurance, give me a call. I have a contact at Carole Nash Insurance Brokers (he's the owner's son!) who can sort things out for a good price.
Bros
I couldn't agree more with Nevr. Don't sell the bike - it'll be worth bugger all with 47k on it. Unless you sell it to me for a low low price!
If you're stuck for bike insurance, give me a call. I have a contact at Carole Nash Insurance Brokers (he's the owner's son!) who can sort things out for a good price.
Bros
04 May 2001, 10:55 AM
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The whole thing is a nightmare, do I go guilty, not guilty, by post or in person...
I have a clean licence at the minute so partly thinking it might be worth risking guilty by post.
I would love to keep the bike and I will talk to you nearer renewal date which is August, cheers very much for the offer.
I don't think it is worth much to sell but is just as useful to me with 47k as with 4k on so I may as well keep it.. was intending only insuring it for 6months through the summer after this year but I am changing jobs and commuting to London on it from June. So that might not be feasable.
I guess you are going to have to ride like a saint with 11points?...
I have a clean licence at the minute so partly thinking it might be worth risking guilty by post.
I would love to keep the bike and I will talk to you nearer renewal date which is August, cheers very much for the offer.
I don't think it is worth much to sell but is just as useful to me with 47k as with 4k on so I may as well keep it.. was intending only insuring it for 6months through the summer after this year but I am changing jobs and commuting to London on it from June. So that might not be feasable.
I guess you are going to have to ride like a saint with 11points?...
04 May 2001, 11:44 AM
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Duke,
Ride like a saint? Nah, just means I'll have to more track days.
Bear in mind that in comfortably over half a million miles this is only my third motoring offence, and that in a year 6 points disappear, I should be OK. Just have to be ultra-careful on motorways, cos that's where they're starting to really clamp down.
Incidentally, although I am known for travelling a warp speeds in both the car and on the bike, I've never been pulled in the car. The police deny that they single bikers out, but I suspect they do subconsciously.
The same, I imagine, goes for Scoobys with big spoilers, gold wheels, and drainpipe exhausts? Or is it just us bikers who are the persecuted minority?
Bros
Ride like a saint? Nah, just means I'll have to more track days.
Bear in mind that in comfortably over half a million miles this is only my third motoring offence, and that in a year 6 points disappear, I should be OK. Just have to be ultra-careful on motorways, cos that's where they're starting to really clamp down.
Incidentally, although I am known for travelling a warp speeds in both the car and on the bike, I've never been pulled in the car. The police deny that they single bikers out, but I suspect they do subconsciously.
The same, I imagine, goes for Scoobys with big spoilers, gold wheels, and drainpipe exhausts? Or is it just us bikers who are the persecuted minority?
Bros
07 May 2001, 07:50 AM
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"If you plead guilty by post, then get summonsed to appear at a later date, you will almost certainly get a stiffer sentence than if you turned up in the first place."
NOT TRUE. The sooner you plead the better. I earned major plus-points for pleading by return of post. If you are guilty, say you are guilty without 'thinking about it'.
Getting the case adjourned due to a postal plea will not affect the case one bit. The Magistrates on the day, will have no idea when or how many times the case was adjourned (only the clerk will know this, and he/she is not allowed to disclose it to the magistrates so as focus on the issue in hand), they will only have details of when the summons was sent, and when a guilty plea was made.
Speak to a Solicitor - quickly - and get expert advice. I can give you a number of an exceptional (but expensive) traffic specialising lawyer who will lay it on the line for you. But what ever you are pleaing, do it quickly!
NOT TRUE. The sooner you plead the better. I earned major plus-points for pleading by return of post. If you are guilty, say you are guilty without 'thinking about it'.
Getting the case adjourned due to a postal plea will not affect the case one bit. The Magistrates on the day, will have no idea when or how many times the case was adjourned (only the clerk will know this, and he/she is not allowed to disclose it to the magistrates so as focus on the issue in hand), they will only have details of when the summons was sent, and when a guilty plea was made.
Speak to a Solicitor - quickly - and get expert advice. I can give you a number of an exceptional (but expensive) traffic specialising lawyer who will lay it on the line for you. But what ever you are pleaing, do it quickly!
07 May 2001, 09:26 AM
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Duke,
Unfortunately I am not a solicitor or barrister, don't have a degree in law and know very little about the judicial system.
Therefore I (like most of the others on this board) am not qualified to give you advice. I can offer rumour, hearsay and my own opinion, but this will be of little help to you.
So the best advice I can give is consult someone who knows the law.... A SOLICITOR, and NOW, before you leave it too late and they have to rush around trying to put your case together.
Sorry if that was blunt, but it's the truth.
All the best
Dave
Unfortunately I am not a solicitor or barrister, don't have a degree in law and know very little about the judicial system.
Therefore I (like most of the others on this board) am not qualified to give you advice. I can offer rumour, hearsay and my own opinion, but this will be of little help to you.
So the best advice I can give is consult someone who knows the law.... A SOLICITOR, and NOW, before you leave it too late and they have to rush around trying to put your case together.
Sorry if that was blunt, but it's the truth.
All the best
Dave
14 May 2001, 03:47 PM
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I said I'd post this for info. My first brush with the law has left me £400 poorer and with 5 penalty points. Could have been worse, could have been better I suppose. The hearing was 2 weeks ago and I have still not heard in writing so I rang the courthouse today.
14 May 2001, 04:14 PM
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Boost,
To be honest, that's about the best you could hope for. 5 points isn't the end of the world and won't massively affect your insurance.
Glad to see it (kind of) worked out for you.
Bros
To be honest, that's about the best you could hope for. 5 points isn't the end of the world and won't massively affect your insurance.
Glad to see it (kind of) worked out for you.
Bros
15 May 2001, 09:27 AM
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Boost II,
That is good news... a nice rap on the knuckles but not too much of a pain in the butt...
I am hoping for much of the same.
I posted my plea of guilty yesterday.
Decided it would be better to take what is coming than to re-live it all in court and then get a similar punishment.
I could perhaps do a sweep stake on the outcome, I might get lucky and make enough to cover the fine? Don't tell me Dave-T-S that would be making light of the seriousness of it all wouldn't it!
I am about to send off my application for Institute of Advanced Motorists, so at least out of all of this I should end up a better driver, and later I intend doing the bike bit too so better rider.
So if you didn't hear for more than two weeks Boost then I have over a month of waiting to go......
Duke
That is good news... a nice rap on the knuckles but not too much of a pain in the butt...
I am hoping for much of the same.
I posted my plea of guilty yesterday.
Decided it would be better to take what is coming than to re-live it all in court and then get a similar punishment.
I could perhaps do a sweep stake on the outcome, I might get lucky and make enough to cover the fine? Don't tell me Dave-T-S that would be making light of the seriousness of it all wouldn't it!
I am about to send off my application for Institute of Advanced Motorists, so at least out of all of this I should end up a better driver, and later I intend doing the bike bit too so better rider.
So if you didn't hear for more than two weeks Boost then I have over a month of waiting to go......
Duke
15 May 2001, 10:12 AM
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Yeah, not too bad - it was just a bit disappointing to finally get the news after 4 months, I was just forgetting the accident by now. In terms of accidentally passing speed cameras and notching up 3 points here and there, I suppose having 5 is not that diferent to having 3. £400 is OK but I have seen people get a lot less for a lot more.
15 May 2001, 10:37 AM
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Yes I watched the news about the train crash and the Landrover driver getting a summons for Dangerous Driving at the weekend, was thinking I am very lucky.
On the one hand he should be hung, but on the other hand poor guy!
On the one hand he should be hung, but on the other hand poor guy!
15 May 2001, 10:52 AM
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Fortunately for the Landrover Driver its all about intent in this country and not measured by the outcome.
He never intended to derail a train but is alleged to have driven Dangerously and the outcome of this was the train derailment and the tragedy that went with this.
Its could happen to any of us so there but for the grace of God and all that. I suppose the real punishment for this guy is living with the guilt. What more could they do to him !!!
Regards
Cammy
[This message has been edited by camk (edited 15 May 2001).]
He never intended to derail a train but is alleged to have driven Dangerously and the outcome of this was the train derailment and the tragedy that went with this.
Its could happen to any of us so there but for the grace of God and all that. I suppose the real punishment for this guy is living with the guilt. What more could they do to him !!!
Regards
Cammy
[This message has been edited by camk (edited 15 May 2001).]
15 May 2001, 11:19 AM
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Cammy, I disaggree with you. Not in principle but in practice.
If I am not paying attention to the road and I have to break at the last minute to avoid hitting something and i am spotted by the police it is highly unlikely they would do anything.
If i was not quick enough and I damaged my own car - again probably no come back.
If i was not quick enough and I hit someone elses car I would probably get done for diving without due care and attention.
If in the same circumstances it was a pedestrian I ran over and killed I'd get dangerous driving and a criminal record.
If I hit the same pedestrian in the same circumstances and he was not hurt I'd probably get away with nothing again.
The out come of the same incident ie me not paying attention to the road would pretty much be governed by pure chance.
If I am not paying attention to the road and I have to break at the last minute to avoid hitting something and i am spotted by the police it is highly unlikely they would do anything.
If i was not quick enough and I damaged my own car - again probably no come back.
If i was not quick enough and I hit someone elses car I would probably get done for diving without due care and attention.
If in the same circumstances it was a pedestrian I ran over and killed I'd get dangerous driving and a criminal record.
If I hit the same pedestrian in the same circumstances and he was not hurt I'd probably get away with nothing again.
The out come of the same incident ie me not paying attention to the road would pretty much be governed by pure chance.
15 May 2001, 02:01 PM
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It might well be the Causing death by dangerous driving charge, I am not 100% sure it just was called Dangerous Driving on the news report I watched.
Would make sense.
Wow I got a thread into three pages!
Would make sense.
Wow I got a thread into three pages!
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