JTaylor

Not if you're in Christ. It'll take you about 2 minutes to read the passage, read it and then you'll see why we're not "all doomed"!

neil-h

Does that not strike you as totally wrong? That the church rates sex outside of wedlock as just as bad as child molestation/murder/rape. I know I'd certainly struggle to rationalise that.

JTaylor

It's a tough one for sure. Verse 23 says we all fall short of God's glory so a sin is a sin and means we've not led a sinless life and therefore can only be redeemed by the blood of Christ. Now, there is such a thing as earthly justice which sees people like me who have sex outside of marriage face no punitive measures, but a child killer will, if caught by the police, face a life sentence in jail. Now, if they're a psychopath, they'll never repent and they'll go to hell. But if one sincerely repents and asks for forgiveness from the Lord they'll be 'saved' - but will suffer their earthly punishment (punitive and self-inflicted, almost intolerable guilt). My earthly punishment of living with someone with whom I'm not married is the torment of wanting to make love, but knowing I grieve the Lord by doing so. I imagine the earthly torment of one who's saved, but who has committed a heinous crime must be so severe as to not require incarceration. They experience hell on earth! And so they should, but they will be released from that upon their passing - heaven.

steve05wrx

Hi,
If God created the Universe and is the all seeing eye - he must be watching over us and taking control of our lives.
Therefore, if he wants us to be good or bad - he decides.
This means that he must be in control of what i do - so I am happy with that and will continue doing exactly what I am currently doing.
A bit simplified - but I imagine you get my drift.
Cheers
Steve

neil-h

That still doesn't really seem right/fair though. Endure 40 or so years of hell on earth, repent and spend an eternity in heaven. Unless of course the conscience is taken to be part of the soul in which case an eternity in heaven would be a hollow prize if you still have live with the guilt of what you did on earth.

JTaylor

I do get your drift. It's the sovereignty vs. free will paradox. There are a couple of extremes; some people emphasize the sovereignty of God to the point that humans become automata and some place such emphasis on free will that God no longer has control of all things. The truth, as I see it, is that God does not violate our wills by choosing us and redeeming us, but He changes our hearts so that our wills choose Him. “We love Him because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19), and “You did not choose me, but I chose you” (John 15:16).

Think of God as a master logician or a chess master; He knows every single combination of moves you can make and he gives you the choice to make the move, but knows what the outcome will be.

JTaylor

No, one's released from earthly guilt when judged by God because they're justified by Christ's blood. Guilt is for a fallen world, not heaven.

Geezer

So he knew Ian Huntley would murder those girls. Nice move God, I'm sure they appreciate that.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

So where does God stand on psychopaths and other similarly mentally disturbed criminal types? Born or made, they are not responsible for their errant behaviour yet are irretrievably 'lost' from the Christian standpoint. Is this fair or is 'fair' an unrecognised concept?

jonc

That just smacks of having your cake and eating it. Why don't you just do the right thing and marry your other half. You live a life of convenience (a materialistic choice?) whilst you inflict "earthly punishment" on yourself and on your other half. I seriously doubt that intolerable guilt will be on your conscience and mind when you're in ***** deep, but it's ok as long as you repent. What torment do you suffer if sex so easily over rules your Lord? Let's not kid ourselves and try to justify it with "intolerable guilt." What you're effectively saying is that whilst you feel you suffer this "intolerable guilt", marriage is to your loved one is a fate much worse that you're willing suffer the cross you bear (though to be fair, some days can feel like that! ). Hell on earth, my ****!

jonc

And to add to that:
https://www.scoobynet.com/1034784-sc...l#post11802440

JTaylor

I didn't say I suffered "intolerable guilt".

Yes, when Paben asked the question I remembered yours. It's a very difficult one to answer because there are several issues in play which are, among other things, a) the problem of evil and the fall b) the sovereignty/free will paradox and c) how that fits in to theistic evolution narrative. I will do my best to answer in a bit.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

I think I'd rather spend an eternity with my friends, most of whome will no doubt be in hell, because I doubt it'll be much fun in heaven with a bunch of dithering old god bothers, no sex or alcohol is going to make for a pretty dull experience.

Are you sure you want to go there JT considering your current preferences for a few glasses of wine and sexual debauchery.

JTaylor

Isaiah 25:6 if you can manage it.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

This is not far removed from the multiple virgins that the suicide bombers are promised, surely something only the very dimmest can actually believe.

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Ok that's the grub and alcohol covered, but what you gona do about poontang?

Opps scratch that question, place is going to be full of drunken birds so I'm sure we'll all be getting laid, no different to a night out on the town in my yoof.

Geezer

Another confusing concept of heaven is what are you like when you go? My mother and mother in law were in a very sorry state when they died, so do they spend an eternity like that? Or are they restored to the point before they got ill? And if so, why then, why not when they were 18?

What about people who marry again because their spouse died? Now that's going to be awkward, "hi, yes, George, I know you loved me, but well life went on. I'm with Frank now, so I will be spending eternity top jockeying him, if that's ok?" or, "Frank, I know we had 20 wonderful years together, but I never really got over George, so thanks, but cya!"

And going back to the "it's ok, you can come in no matter what you have done as long as you accept Christ", it's going to be a bit awkward to say the least when Fred West and his daughter meet up. Heaven is going to be full of fighting. Does God mediate?

JTaylor

It paints a picture.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Yes, a picture of earthly delights in heaven. But isn't the promise of heaven supposed to transcend such base pleasures? Is this really all that great godliness will lead to, a feast? It doesn't seem to be worth the effort or sacrifice to be honest.

JTaylor

This is a sermon delivered by a visiting pastor just a couple of weeks back. It was odd because a few days before the sermon was preached my partner had been asking the kind of questions that you ask above and we sat and talked about Revelation 21. Also, she rarely comes to church, but did the morning of the sermon and, lo and behold, we're in Revelation 21. If you or anyone wants to listen you're more than welcome.

http://www.calvaryogmore.co.uk/sites...ermons/335.mp3

Words are very limiting, you know that, Paben. The delights of heaven will be, as the preacher above describes, another dimension. He's also a physicist, for what it's worth. He's a Valleys boy with whom one can discuss quantum mechanics and how that relates to the realm of God.

Geezer

OK, I listened to all 30 minutes of that, it was pretty hard going to be honest, but at least I did.

A few things struck me. Like you, he seems to be looking for redemption. He lived a life, for whatever reason he wasn't particularly proud of it, I'm guessing he thought Christianity may atone for it.

Would be interesting to know how many born again Christians have had dodgy lives. I know of two who I was in school with, both had extremely chequered pasts. I would guess that most 'normal' people, if you'll excuse the phrase have no such hang ups.

He did touch on Revelation 21 and that everything Heaven is new. Ok, but again, it doesn't really address my question. What is new? Define how the new you will be? If you are interacting with others in Heaven (and let's face it, that is how it will have to be, otherwise eternity on your own doesn't really appeal.) then even your physical self is gone, your soul will surely have an appearance? Or, is it all just voices in your head? Is heaven a dark place where you can just hear?

It also does not address the question I raised about former spouses. Your memories will not be new, otherwise it isn't you. How is that resolved?

The idea of Heaven, in any shape or form is so fraught with contradiction and holes, it's laughable.

As for atheists being terrified of death, I know personally of many cases where this simply isn't so. As Forrest Gump's mother said, dying is just a part of life, we all have to go through it. I don't doubt that some people find it unnerving (which is why we have religion!), but I have had personal experience of people who don't believe who were quite at peace at the end.


As Woody Allen said "I am not afraid of death, I just don't want to be there when it happens"

Paben

iTrader: (5)

I can't agree. Words are only as limited as the person using them; they have infinite possibilities in the right hands. The celebrated writers and poets know that the simplest words, employed with subtlety and craft, can create incredible atmosphere and emotion in their works.

It sounds as though you are surprised to find a valley boy with more than half a brain. I'm a valley boy too, half witted perhaps but I am sure that portraying a feast as a description of heaven is a poor effort by any standards.

JTaylor

Ok, well thanks for listening it really is appreciated. Allan trained our current pastor and I'm very fond of them both.

I wouldn't play down a man's conversion; I can assure you that when one comes fully to Christ one does so having made a profound leap. To trust in the unseen on the other side is not to be taken lightly. And don't think life becomes easier when you've landed, it doesn't; contrition is a particularly uncomfortable, but important part of regeneration. Every spec of dirt is highlighted and magnified! So it comes as no surprise that many born again Christians are particularly sickened by their past, a past without God.

As for your questions about the true nature of heaven after death I maintain, as I have with Paben, that there aren't sufficient words in the language to describe it accurately. I hear your objections and the various conudrums you present, but I'm unconcerned as I know that God, whose wisdom is infinite, will have already solved and overcome them.

I'm pleased for you that you're not afraid to die, I hope that when the hour comes you pass through with dignity. I wonder if in those closing moments you'll hear the laughter of those who believed in heaven. Not malice, but joy as they see the face of Jesus.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Read Philip Pullman's 'His Dark Materials' to see what might have really happened to God and his angels! It panders to the belief that God is dead and is considered sacrilege in some quarters, gives food for thought though.

JTaylor

Words do not have infinite possibilities, language is finite. It can be beautiful and exhilarating and has the power to both destroy and heal, but let's not imagine that the word ineffable is redundant.

Don't put yourself down!

Why don't you describe heaven as you imagined it when you were a kid in the Valleys?

lozgti1

Never ,ever understood how much passion there is trying to deny God.Lol.In fact more so last 15 years.No idea why there is so much passion for it when God isn't exactly up there to give you a hard time.lol

ditchmyster

iTrader: (7)

Thing is as I see it you haven't landed, to be fair you haven't even made the leap, you live in sin, so how can you claim to have committed to your christ and religion.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

As a kid I could have wished for nothing more from heaven than perpetual fishing, shooting, camping and walking in the mountains, playing under waterfalls and in the rivers, just generally messing about. What I got was Hell, incarceration in various schools from the age of eight, worse than any prison sentence yet with no crime committed other than being a child with no say in anything.
Yet in reality neither would qualify as the idea most people have of heaven or hell. Unless you are suggesting that heaven can be whatever you want it to be?

JTaylor

Have you read Romans yet?

JTaylor

That's a sad read, Paben. Like most, my childhood had it's challenges, but I also remember periods of unbridled joy! Did you not have those moments at all?