Hopefully it will go the same way as the scoobynet poll

 

Thing is, whatever it ends up at on the eve of polling day, won't necessarily translate into the same overall vote. Obviously.

Just interesting from an academic POV, if nothing else.

 

As leader of a third-party country in the whole affair (ie. not the UK, not an EU member-state), the dignified thing for Obama to have done would be to confine his comments to whether and how Brexit might directly impact on the US, not how it might impact on the UK in its relations with the US. A subtle distinction you might say, but a very important one IMO.

 

Yes I accept that, but for the Leave campaign to cry foul every time someone foreign nation expresses an opinion is simply ridiculous.


But even then, how many of us offer our advice to friends, when on that basis, we should keep our noses out?

 

If there is one thing that we should have learned, especially from the Scotland's referendum, is that those wanting change will always shout the loudest. Having said that I have no idea how the silent majority will vote.

 

Brexit the movie now available to watch


(Also on Vimeo https://vimeo.com/166378572 )

 

I fear I may be naïve and look for good arguments to balance. I was undecided/biased towards remain until watching Brexit the movie. The issue is not immigration or the economy, but sovereignty. The fear of leaving feels like the fear of leaving an abusive relationship.

 

So a UKIP propaganda video, featuring all the usual suspects has swayed you?

What do the British people actually want in terms of sovereignty?

 

I think he may been jokin

 

The Brexit movie was easy and clear to understand, explanation of the EU and it's unaccountable setup, population funding it's own interest and propaganda. A huge juggernaut of bureaucracy swallowing more and more in funding. Then simple examples of what could be achieved if we left and sort to sell our goods elsewhere in the world

We don't even need to think about dealing with the EU, they will be desperate to deal with us on our terms

 

It appears so. The government document through the door was unimpressive.

Is there a good quality debunking presenting the other side?

Is the EU anti-democratic? Do trade deals matter? Should we stay because the EU will punish us if we leave?

 

lol, Delingpole - the first speaker, an absolute nutcase conspiracy theorist

who spouts Agenda 21, claptrap - most things he says are simply lies

Durkin - the producer of the The Great Global Warming Swindle movie - which has been so catastrophically debunked - indeed large parts were removed after it was broadcast, Channel 4 had to apologies for the distortions and misquotes

I would not trust that lot

but then you had Ian Duncan Smith talking about how the EU lowers wages and workers rights

fine - but just look at his voting record on wages and rights issues

voted against the minimum wage

voted against the social chapter

those are the ones I know about

he has obviously had a changed of heart !!!!!

 

Wouldn't mind living in Switzerland,looks lovely and clean.

 

John, I'm afraid you're onto a loser there. Martin doesn't do facts and analysis, he does name calling ("propaganda") and smear. Which I why I've blocked him.

The FACT that Durkin raised funds on kickstarter (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...exit-the-movie) to make the film doesn't stop Martin from trying to call it UKIP propaganda (like that's a bad thing!). He's an idiot. To expect a reasoned response from him is a fools errand. You'll see from his response why I blocked him.

There are arguments to be made on both sides of the debate, for me Brexit is by far the most compelling.

 

Excellent Warren, go ahead then and give us some of the good reasons to remain.

That would be a first

Also isn't calling me an idiot make once again fail your own 'personal attacks' test? You're such a flippin hypocrit!

The ONLY reason you blocked me is because kept owning you, and calling you on your ideological claptrap.

 

My reasons to remain were:


1. Doesn't cost that much
2. Might prevent WW3
3. Trade barriers


I think free trade and controlled immigration are good things.

 

1) Really? I call 350 billion quid a lot and bad value https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-m...ee-55-million/
2) That was Nato, the EU only came into being after the Lisbon treaty, before that it was the EEC, a body at that time concerned only with trade. Common defence and cooperation is only recent. Remember Nick Clegg saying the EU army was a myth? See http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...n-Dutch-forces
3) You saw the film about that!

 

It depends what you mean by free trade

Obviously we would be free to "negotiate" free trade deals

We would NOT be able to simply participate in "free trade" with Europe without accepting free movement of goods services AND people

If you are talking about controlled immigration from outside Europe, fine but explain (Ian Duncan Smith couldn't) what that has got to do with Europe

Please don't simply say we could trade freely with Europe and not participate in the free movement of people - from the EU

Otherwise you will just come accross as deluded and part of the bat **** crazy brigade

 

We already trade with other countries around the world and will be able to set better deals and liaisons without our hands being tied to EU controls. I honestly believe we won't need to deal with the EU block, there is so much potential in the rest of the world.

It would be nice to trade with the EU but if they take their bat and ball home, big deal.

As a block the EU are on a steep slope of decline compared to the rest of the world in Trade terms.

 

Wouldn't it be so nice to make our government accountable and able to introduce laws as the population saw fit.
It certainly hasnt done the Swiss people any harm, not to be in the EU

I have always liked Switzerland. Wealthy, clean and democratic

 

Why oh why did Cameron think saying that was a bright idea? Anyone with half an ounce of common sense sees it for the utter rubbish that it and I really can't see it's done the in campaign any favours what so ever.

 

did Cameron say it would prevent WW3

I would like to see the source for that

I think he said something along the lines of "future conflicts"

it was Boris who then inflated it to WW3

but then not surprising since he has played the Hilter card this morning

lets get the FACTS straight

otherwise MYTHS get born

 

Switzerland and democracy is a odd one too

the must in the first flushes of it, women only got the vote in 1971 and it took another 12 odd years for them to elect a women MP

 

Cameron opened the gate by linking the EU to previous world wars, so it was Cameron's problem.

 

get the text of his speech up and we can check

The EU was born out of the 2 world wars, that is simply a FACT

get the quote where he talked about WW3

 

In the same time the EU has morphed into an un accountable juggernaut, ignoring referendums

 

sure - if you think I am saying the EU is perfect and simply agree with everything it does

I don't there is plenty wrong with it, like any institution, whether national or international it is not perfect

to my knowledge no one says it is

don't build a strawman

 

Preventing WW3 was a possibility I'd considered myself, I hadn't noticed the politicians actually saying it.


I am wondering why we would have different immigration rules for EU vs non EU. Why not use the same standards for all immigrants?


Same for trade?


I'm not precious about my own reputation or understanding here, I am no expert. I simply have a responsibility as a voter to make the best decision I can.

 

@john

2 points

Point 1

If we leave the EU we are free to treat both EU and non EU immigration the same

And put any rules we want to limit either

Point 2

If we want to enter in the free trade agreement (whether actually in or out of the EU) with Europe we have to agree to the free movement of EU citizens

To think otherwise is simply nuts (bat **** crazy), in these fundamental principles the EU is not a pick and mix

You may well be confused by it because the Brexiters spread FUD around this issue

So to recap if we leave we have total control of everyone's entry, if we leave but want "free trade" with the EU then we are in exactly the same position as we are now

If we leave and want to negotiate a trade deal that does not include free movement then all bets are off and we would have to see what we could negotiate


A final point is that all studies show that EU immigration is a net benefit to the UK economy

 

My own experience in this is supplying services to the US. We just signed a contract and got on with it.


On another occasion, we personally imported a large and valuable machine from China. This involved the services of a shipping agent who charged fees, along with VAT and duty. There was a little more paperwork involved than buying a machine from the EU.


These are my most significant personal transactions with overseas companies. The best company to sell services to was in the US, the best company to buy a product from was in China.


Currency, language, distance, timezones and cultures are all issues. As they are in Europe. VAT is a zero sum game. Duty is disappointing.


I guess there would be a lot more aggro setting up the movement of goods outwith the EU?


What else am I not getting about trade deals?