I found about it doing work for both cat and jcb but more cat side.Sometimes go to jcb plant at uttoxeter and said the letter is doing the rounds on the net.

 

in the news as well

 

And the unfounded daily ad hom award goes to......

 

yes, my mistake

I think I was referring to the NHS as an institution rather that former council run care services

but my point is these problems (including our welfare system) are neither caused nor will be cured by our membership or not of the EU

my further point was that politicians of all parties (but mostly from the Tory right) have been giving away power for the last 30 years

 

Was that the point you were originally making? As I already said that at the bottom of post #1404...(the post you only partially quoted).

Is there any concise online resources to support this? Just during the last 30 years we've had 13years of continuous Labour, 5years coalition and 12 non-continuous Tory. To me that's a mixed bag of party rule. Dare I speculate that it's as at least equally as much the 13 years of centre-right Labour government's doing than just the "more to the right" Tory's

 

Surely the question of who gave what away and when is a little irrelevant. The real question is

DO YOU WANT THAT POWER BACK?

 

After watching this, admittedly I found Brexit more compelling

 

I think its important to highlight that there are two different types of right-wingers supporting the leave campaign.

There are the Nationalists, such as BNP, UKIP, Britain First etc. who's motives are almost exclusively on the immigration issue from an background of racial intolerance.

Then there are the Capitalists; The Conservative party right wingers, Johnson, Gove etc. who don't really care much about the immigration issue, they are merely looking for personal power or ways to make themselves or their friends richer.

Its quite telling that there are two separate leave campaigns divided on the Nationalists/Capitalist boundary because fundamentally, they disagree on many key issues. There are begrudgingly working together on the basis of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Post Brexit, they will no doubt once again turn against each other!

 

There's a good reason for that...

 

I see some Brexiters are getting hot and bothered about the voting extension

(In a perfect world it should not have happened obviously - but the world, and the EU is imperfect )

The beginnings of a conspiracy?

And at least one threatening to "go legal" and challenge an in vote, should it happen

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...endum-36486369

You would have thought that if the argument is all about democracy it would be welcomed

apparently not (for some)

 

Just watching the latest leave political broadcast. OMG, it just beggars belief.

Who believes this kind of nonsense?

 

Whatever you do Martin don't switch to channel 5 right now....there's a woman on the dole stripping off in the job centre in protest about the migrants "tekin' der jerbs"*

If you do happen switch it on (on benefit: Bargain Barbie and Desperate Dole Claimants)...it will answer your question.


*the word " jerbs " maybe copyrighted by the makers of South Park

 

49 pages and this is my first post on the thread.

After reading masses of articles and watching all the ITV programmes, I can't help but think the Remain campaigners just come across as really desperate. They lie, invent things to try to strengthen their points, don't have any real evidence to back up anything they assert will happen if we leave, and almost everything they say is just so obviously an attempt to scaremonger, trying to exploit people's general innate fear of change and the unknown. The worrying thing is so many people believe their scaremongering. I compare the mentality of the Remainers to Stockholm syndrome, where deep down they must know they're being controlled and taken for mugs, but for some bizarre reason they're too scared to take back their freedom... like they almost enjoy being powerless and dominated by scumbags. The other analogy is the film the Matrix, where the babies are kept in those incubators, are used and abused, kept by the machines as slaves, but don't know any better and are fooled into believing they are free.

Whatever one's view is, I find it incredible that anybody could've watched the ITV programmes and not perceived the Remain campaign's efforts as pitiful. Cameron was so poor I find it extremely worrying that he's our PM - very weak, repeats the same few soundbites again and again, overall just a very poor politician, a complete amateur really. The clear winner was Farage. He made clear, rational points, backed up with evidence and facts. I thought he presented a calm yet compelling argument.

And if I had any doubts whatsoever, the fact Martin thinks we should remain confirms leaving is unquestionably the correct decision. The country will decide. I firmly believe most people in the U.K. are generally clueless about most things, but I sincerely hope they prove me wrong on the 23rd and make the right decision to no longer be a part of this failed, corrupt experiment, otherwise I genuinely fear for the future of our country.

 

Another Leave post bereft of any facts.

 

I also fear for the future of our country, in or out, if you are representative of 'Joe public'

 

How can you take a man who swops out an impreza for an Audi tt seriously lol

 

Ultimately it boils down to one thing to me..
We need to have a very good reason to rock the boat, and I haven't heard one.
All the leave campaign bleat on about is immigration and 350 million per week. That's it. A bigot's charter. Now I've always had plenty to say about immigrants, but right now I'm sick of hearing about them, and the fake 350 million.
2 votes for Remain posted tomorrow.

 

Is that the best you can come back with? Maybe I should've followed your tactic and posted "yes it is/no it isn't/how is it?"

The goal of my post wasn't to provide facts, it was merely to provide my opinion. Every fact and valid reason for leaving has already been mentioned, but you choose to ignore or deny them. Ultimately, you're not intelligent enough to understand, so why would I waste my time?

"Swoops out"? Lol

You really are obsessed with me, aren't you!? Despite often feeling utter dismay and pity after reading your illiterate ramblings, I manage quite easily to completely ignore you. The first post I make on a 49-page thread and you reply instantly, yet again bringing up the car I drive. For the record, it's a TT RS. And for the record, you drive a Xsara. Jealousy is a terrible affliction, one for which I politely suggest you seek help.

 

Well go on then challenge me on this. Give me your opinion, rather than someone else's.
Give me some good reasons we should leave.
Tell me what the socio-economic benefits will be..?

Go ahead smart ****, see how far you get?

 

Yeah that democracy and sovereignty thing is so overrated/not mentioned at all

 

like the polls, most have made their mind up now, no point in trying to nag someone into changing their mind.

 

Question time last night, the Brex****ters got a right hammering. Eddie Izzard did a great job for the remain campaign, he should be a politician! One of the leave panel (can't remember her name) was swearing blind the EU tells us how we can spend the rebate! Even Farage had to admit that was a blatant lie! They were also slaughtered on the £350m week lie! They were slaughtered on their lack of economic plan! There immigration plans were also pulled to pieces as unlealistic and based on Nationalism rhetoric from 1930's Germany!

 

alison Pearson (believe it or not I have had dinner with her, and her husband)

Yes that exchange over the 350 million was embarrassingly pathetic

myth making - a simple lie, that if told often enough gets believed

I have to disagree re Izzard though, from what I saw, and I did not see it all he was a shreeky embarrassment

 

From what i saw, the whole program was pathetic. It seems to spend more time in the realms of petty bickering between Izzard and Farage than it did as an actual panel debate (and yeah that bit about how we spend the rebate was hysterical).

That being said, at least Izzard had the hood grace to accept it when he was told to be quiet. Where as Farage would sit there pouting like some scolded child.

 

I think the whole Question Time format is dreadful. No real debate goes on because everyone shouts over each other and no one listens, pathetic.


Izzard could be a politician as he seems to have mastered the shout over but not listen skill, I just found him irritating and felt he contributed nothing

 

I guess it comes from which position you come from. I found Izzard to be completely deranged. I know he is a tranny, but he just looked and behaved like he was there for pantomime.

 

I thought Izzard's points were valid enough, but he kept badgering about Farage's immigrant background and it just got annoying.

And as much as I respect him for being open about is transvestism, he didn't cut a serious figure.

The Leavers were shown to be a bunch of liars, as already said, the £350million was a shocker.

 

What is not difficult to understand about the numbers, Leave quote gross because its bigger, remain quote net because its smaller and looks less significant.

Whatever amount you want to pick, its a sh!tload of money per week. No one can argue with that.

The remain think its worth it to be in a free trade zone, the leave think it will be better spent and controlled from the UK.

 

To you and I, yes, its a massive amount of money! But compared to the UK weekly budget, even the gross figure pales into insignificance!

Its also very easy to say we can spend that extra money on NHS etc. but reality is, it will all go on the support for the farmers, fisheries, scientific research, universities and regional development that will have lost all the money they get from Europe!

 

The net figure is the important one though. As David Dimbleby pointed out, if he gives you £100 and you give him £25 back, are you £75 or £100 up?

The answer from the Conservative was not the same, a company pays you £30k, it costs them £30k. The fact you have to give tax to the government is neither here nor there, it cost the company £30k. If the company gave you £30k and you gave them the tax and NI back, that would be analagous. But, you don't.

Also, as one audience member pointed out, if the economy shrinks, you've immediately wiped out your savings, so now you have now no trade deal with the (like the one we now have), and no grants or subsidies from the EU.

We might have less immigrants, I don't blame them to be honest, who will want to come to the UK in such a terrible state!

Someone made a point about what they plan to do if we vote Leave and millions of EU migrants come here in the next two years before we exit. There was no answer to that.