View Poll Results: How will you vote in the EU referendum?
Voters: 255. You may not vote on this poll
EU Referendum
14 June 2016 | 03:29 AM
#1651
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 15,633
Likes: 21
From: K
I could reel off loads and loads of well established businesses in the Midlands some that been around since the 1800's that have either closed, moved or been taken over and asset striped by a foreign corporation.
But what is more demonstrative is that between 1997 and 2010, the number of jobs in the manufacturing sector shrunk from 4.5 million to just 2.5 million (source: "The Slow Death of British Industry: a 60-Year Suicide, 1952-2012" by Nicholas Comfort https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Ind.../dp/1849544638 ) this is whilst we're IN the EU and for the most part NOT in recession!
But what is more demonstrative is that between 1997 and 2010, the number of jobs in the manufacturing sector shrunk from 4.5 million to just 2.5 million (source: "The Slow Death of British Industry: a 60-Year Suicide, 1952-2012" by Nicholas Comfort https://www.amazon.co.uk/British-Ind.../dp/1849544638 ) this is whilst we're IN the EU and for the most part NOT in recession!
14 June 2016 | 03:49 AM
#1652
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 46,493
Likes: 13
From: riding the crest of a wave ...
Can't imagine how long take through immigration for some at Gatwick etc if we vote out
Half a day ?
Does the EU control the weather....
Half a day ?
Does the EU control the weather....
Last edited by dpb; 14 June 2016 at 03:52 AM.
14 June 2016 | 07:19 AM
#1653
Scooby Senior
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,635
Likes: 229
From: Friedrichshafen Germany/Preston UK
I'm quite sure they do! Before we were in the EU it was always sunny in the UK! We used to produce wine in Manchester! Now they're forcing this climate change on us and the weather is only getting worse, while southern Europe basks in our sunshine and its all so they can keep the wine production to themselves! 
14 June 2016 | 07:24 AM
#1654
Scooby Regular
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 5,824
Likes: 1
From: Scooby Planet
people have such short memories in this country
we may well lose jobs if we leave but we have lost both jobs and money by being in
3600 jobs at peugot lost to slovenia with a 78million grant from the eu to peugot to help them relocate everyone somehow forgets to mention all the companies that have moved out of britain
peugot (stopped manufactoring)
smc moved edc and hq
legris same as above
timkin same as above
skf (stopped manufactoring)
to name but a few have all moved hq od edc's and production to the eu
we may well lose jobs if we leave but we have lost both jobs and money by being in
3600 jobs at peugot lost to slovenia with a 78million grant from the eu to peugot to help them relocate everyone somehow forgets to mention all the companies that have moved out of britain
peugot (stopped manufactoring)
smc moved edc and hq
legris same as above
timkin same as above
skf (stopped manufactoring)
to name but a few have all moved hq od edc's and production to the eu
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
14 June 2016 | 08:00 AM
#1655
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,296
Likes: 118
From: Api 500+bhp MD321T @91dB Probably SN's longest owner of an Impreza Turbo
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
Why did we stay so long?
Vote Leave 23rd
14 June 2016 | 08:17 AM
#1656
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 15,633
Likes: 21
From: K
lol, the above is just fantasy
Read James Meeks
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00N77GT...ng=UTF8&btkr=1
Private Island: Why Britain Now Belongs to Someone Else
"How the British government packaged and sold its people to the world.
In a little over a generation the bones and sinews of the British economy – rail, energy, water, postal services, municipal housing – have been sold to remote, unaccountable private owners. In a series of brilliant portraits James Meek shows how Britain’s common wealth became private, and the impact it has had on us all. In a series of panoramic accounts, Meek explores the human stories behind the incremental privatization of the nation over the last three decades. As our national assets are being sold, the new buyers reap the rewards, and the ordinary consumer is left to pay the ever rising bill."
and we haven't just sold UK assets to EU (State run!!!) companies, just very quick look at the list above Cadburys to the US, Docks to the Chinese, and the Saudi's, most of London's housing to the middle east
the EU is not responsible for the demise of UK industry, what rubbish WE have done it all on our own, with our dogmatic philosophy that "the market" can solve every problem
Read James Meeks
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00N77GT...ng=UTF8&btkr=1
Private Island: Why Britain Now Belongs to Someone Else
"How the British government packaged and sold its people to the world.
In a little over a generation the bones and sinews of the British economy – rail, energy, water, postal services, municipal housing – have been sold to remote, unaccountable private owners. In a series of brilliant portraits James Meek shows how Britain’s common wealth became private, and the impact it has had on us all. In a series of panoramic accounts, Meek explores the human stories behind the incremental privatization of the nation over the last three decades. As our national assets are being sold, the new buyers reap the rewards, and the ordinary consumer is left to pay the ever rising bill."
and we haven't just sold UK assets to EU (State run!!!) companies, just very quick look at the list above Cadburys to the US, Docks to the Chinese, and the Saudi's, most of London's housing to the middle east
the EU is not responsible for the demise of UK industry, what rubbish WE have done it all on our own, with our dogmatic philosophy that "the market" can solve every problem
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 14 June 2016 at 08:18 AM.
14 June 2016 | 08:18 AM
#1657
Cadbury moved factory to Poland 2011 with EU grant.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
Ford Transit moved to Turkey 2013 with EU grant.
Jaguar Land Rover has recently agreed to build a new plant in Slovakia with EU grant, owned by Tata, the same company who have trashed our steel works and emptied the workers pension funds.
Peugeot closed its Ryton (was Rootes Group) plant and moved production to Slovakia with EU grant.
British Army's new Ajax fighting vehicles to be built in SPAIN using SWEDISH steel at the request of the EU to support jobs in Spain with EU grant, rather than Wales.
Dyson gone to Malaysia, with an EU loan.
Crown Closures, Bournemouth (Was METAL BOX), gone to Poland with EU grant, once employed 1,200.
M&S manufacturing gone to far east with EU loan.
Hornby models gone. In fact all toys and models now gone from UK along with the patents all with with EU grants.
Gillette gone to eastern Europe with EU grant.
Texas Instruments Greenock gone to Germany with EU grant.
Indesit at Bodelwyddan Wales gone with EU grant.
Sekisui Alveo said production at its Merthyr Tydfil Industrial Park foam plant will relocate production to Roermond in the Netherlands, with EU funding.
Hoover Merthyr factory moved out of UK to Czech Republic and the Far East by Italian company Candy with EU backing.
ICI integration into Holland’s AkzoNobel with EU bank loan and within days of the merger, several factories in the UK, were closed, eliminating 3,500 jobs
Boots sold to Italians Stefano Pessina who have based their HQ in Switzerland to avoid tax to the tune of £80 million a year, using an EU loan for the purchase.
JDS Uniphase run by two Dutch men, bought up companies in the UK with £20 million in EU 'regeneration' grants, created a pollution nightmare and just closed it all down leaving 1,200 out of work and an environmental clean-up paid for by the UK tax-payer. They also raided the pension fund and drained it dry.
UK airports are owned by a Spanish company.
Scottish Power is owned by a Spanish company.
Most London buses are run by Spanish and German companies.
The Hinkley Point C nuclear power station to be built by French company EDF, part owned by the French government, using cheap Chinese steel that has catastrophically failed in other nuclear installations. Now EDF say the costs will be double or more and it will be very late even if it does come online.
Swindon was once our producer of rail locomotives and rolling stock. Not any more, it's Bombardier in Derby and due to their losses in the aviation market, that could see the end of the British railways manufacturing altogether even though Bombardier had EU grants to keep Derby going which they diverted to their loss-making aviation side in Canada.
39% of British invention patents have been passed to foreign companies, many of them in the EU
The Mini cars that Cameron stood in front of as an example of British engineering, are built by BMW mostly in Holland and Austria. His campaign bus was made in Germany even though we have Plaxton, Optare, Bluebird, Dennis etc., in the UK. The bicycle for the Greens was made in the far east, not by Raleigh UK but then they are probably going to move to the Netherlands too as they have said recently.
Anyone who thinks the EU is good for British industry or any other business simply hasn't paid attention to what has been systematically asset-stripped from the UK. Name me one major technology company still running in the UK, I used to contract out to many, then the work just dried up as they were sold off to companies from France, Germany, Holland, Belgium, etc., and now we don't even teach electronic technology for technicians any more, due to EU regulations.
I haven't detailed our non-existent fishing industry the EU paid to destroy, nor the farmers being paid NOT to produce food they could sell for more than they get paid to do nothing, don't even go there.
I haven't mentioned what it costs us to be asset-stripped like this, nor have I mentioned immigration, nor the risk to our security if control of our armed forces is passed to Brussels or Germany.
Find something that's gone the other way, I've looked and I just can't. If you think the EU is a good idea,
1/ You haven't read the party manifesto of The European Peoples' Party.
2/ You haven't had to deal with EU petty bureaucracy tearing your business down.
3/ You don't think it matters.
14 June 2016 | 08:53 AM
#1658
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,296
Likes: 118
From: Api 500+bhp MD321T @91dB Probably SN's longest owner of an Impreza Turbo
lol, the above is just fantasy
Read James Meeks
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00N77GT...ng=UTF8&btkr=1
Private Island: Why Britain Now Belongs to Someone Else
"How the British government packaged and sold its people to the world.
In a little over a generation the bones and sinews of the British economy – rail, energy, water, postal services, municipal housing – have been sold to remote, unaccountable private owners. In a series of brilliant portraits James Meek shows how Britain’s common wealth became private, and the impact it has had on us all. In a series of panoramic accounts, Meek explores the human stories behind the incremental privatization of the nation over the last three decades. As our national assets are being sold, the new buyers reap the rewards, and the ordinary consumer is left to pay the ever rising bill."
and we haven't just sold UK assets to EU (State run!!!) companies, just very quick look at the list above Cadburys to the US, Docks to the Chinese, and the Saudi's, most of London's housing to the middle east
the EU is not responsible for the demise of UK industry, what rubbish WE have done it all on our own, with our dogmatic philosophy that "the market" can solve every problem
Read James Meeks
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00N77GT...ng=UTF8&btkr=1
Private Island: Why Britain Now Belongs to Someone Else
"How the British government packaged and sold its people to the world.
In a little over a generation the bones and sinews of the British economy – rail, energy, water, postal services, municipal housing – have been sold to remote, unaccountable private owners. In a series of brilliant portraits James Meek shows how Britain’s common wealth became private, and the impact it has had on us all. In a series of panoramic accounts, Meek explores the human stories behind the incremental privatization of the nation over the last three decades. As our national assets are being sold, the new buyers reap the rewards, and the ordinary consumer is left to pay the ever rising bill."
and we haven't just sold UK assets to EU (State run!!!) companies, just very quick look at the list above Cadburys to the US, Docks to the Chinese, and the Saudi's, most of London's housing to the middle east
the EU is not responsible for the demise of UK industry, what rubbish WE have done it all on our own, with our dogmatic philosophy that "the market" can solve every problem
14 June 2016 | 09:26 AM
#1659
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 38,046
Likes: 301
From: The hell where youth and laughter go
Ahhh, that's the crux; Both past and present, UK politicians (MP and MEP) slept walked through this demise and yet today are banging Pro-EU drums. And you wonder why sizeable chunks of the public (from all walks of life)have no care for what these politicians say when they try to justify why we should remain?
These politicians are the people that failed us. They are still not held to account and they support a wider doctrine that doesn't promise to either stop further dimise or to help regenerate it.
It's very easy to dismiss a short list of companies from the comfort of a (office?) computer, however what isn't so well documented is the loss of the supportive industries that supplied and maintained those lost industries, this isn't just some factories closing, it's the trickle down loss of everything that supports those factories, be it from component supply right through to cleaning staff.
You see that list of car plants and heavy industry that has gone? What I hear from folk around here all beats around the same issues; My area made castings, forgings, sheet steel coatings, sheet steel pressing, plastic mouldings and other large scale component production supplier to these factories. They've gone. It's a permanent loss (it's now all demolished for housing or retail), and what's poignant is because it's gone this threat of further demise from a shrinkage in economy doesn't bother people round here; they feel that they have little left to lose. I've heard it time and time again, no one round here has any care for the EU, because quite simply nobody official (or otherwise) has been able to demonstrate anything positive it has done for people in this area. I could compare it to paying a monthly subscription to a service, say, like "scoobynet plus" (
) that you get no benefit from...why would someone want to continue if they see no personal benefit from it?
14 June 2016 | 09:35 AM
#1660
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 15,633
Likes: 21
From: K
well that is simply a result of globalisation not the EU imo
we (in the UK and US) have had a 40 years experiment in neo-conservative economic theories around market driven liberalisation from everything - prisons (G4S anyone!!!!) to housing, to care homes (Southern Cross anyone!!!)
it has ripped through the very heart of the UK (and US) economy - exporting jobs and industry around the world, based on a simple and coarse economic metric - a simple and narrow view of cost and ROI
it has hit the buffers here and in the US, as the extent of the social problems it ultimately causes becomes obvious - the result is Trump in the US providing easy sound-bite answers and the Brexiters in the UK doing the same
sure blame the EU, blame the bureaucrats, blame everyone but ourselves and total acceptance of market driven economics in EVERY sphere of our lives
a molecule of gas that comes out of your hob has been traded in the market over 25 times before you get to cook with it, bought and sold, no actual value added - just a mechanism for the consumers to get shafted
but its all the fault of the EU - sorry I don't buy it
we (in the UK and US) have had a 40 years experiment in neo-conservative economic theories around market driven liberalisation from everything - prisons (G4S anyone!!!!) to housing, to care homes (Southern Cross anyone!!!)
it has ripped through the very heart of the UK (and US) economy - exporting jobs and industry around the world, based on a simple and coarse economic metric - a simple and narrow view of cost and ROI
it has hit the buffers here and in the US, as the extent of the social problems it ultimately causes becomes obvious - the result is Trump in the US providing easy sound-bite answers and the Brexiters in the UK doing the same
sure blame the EU, blame the bureaucrats, blame everyone but ourselves and total acceptance of market driven economics in EVERY sphere of our lives
a molecule of gas that comes out of your hob has been traded in the market over 25 times before you get to cook with it, bought and sold, no actual value added - just a mechanism for the consumers to get shafted
but its all the fault of the EU - sorry I don't buy it
14 June 2016 | 09:39 AM
#1661
Scooby Senior
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,635
Likes: 229
From: Friedrichshafen Germany/Preston UK
The whole Cadbury fiasco is a pet-hate of mine! Cadbury were such a great company; they made great chocolate and treated their employees extremely well. When they were sold to Kraft (now rebranded as Mondelez) they have destroyed the Cadbury brand, closed factories despite promises not to, they've stopped the Christmas chocolates to retired employees and drained money from the pension scheme! Kraft/Mondelez are purely a bad company! This is not an EU problem, but a problem that both the Government and the British public let them get away with doing these things! I don't let them get away with it! Since Kraft bought Cadbury, I have boycotted all products from Kraft & Mondelez (which is still Kraft under a different name). I no longer buy Cadbury chocolate, or Milka, or Toblerone or any other mondelez product. I won't buy Oreo's, Philadelphia and now there is a partnership with Kraft and Heinz, I also no longer buy Heinz products! The list of Kraft brands is enormous, but I consciously pay attention to what brands they own and avoid them! The EU didn't force the sale of Cadbury to Kraft. The UK government could even have stopped it, but they didn't! How many other people are willing to boycot Kraft/Mondelez? Buy alternatives from British producers and protect UK jobs from unscrupulous corporations!
Dyson moving production out of the UK is another example of greed from large companies! Its no wonder Sir James Dyson, who's clearly so in favour of protecting UK jobs, wants us to leave so he can benefit even more of manufacturing outside of the UK/EU!
The rot of UK manufacturing is a UK problem, not created by the EU, but by the UK corporate biased policies which encourage big corporations to abuse UK workers and harm small companies. If we leave the EU, this corporate culture, the culture Boris Johnson supports, will only get worse!
Ignorance is bliss, but as long as you continue to support these companies by buying there products, you are also part of the problem!
14 June 2016 | 11:35 AM
#1662
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,296
Likes: 118
From: Api 500+bhp MD321T @91dB Probably SN's longest owner of an Impreza Turbo
The rot of UK manufacturing is a UK problem, not created by the EU, but by the UK corporate biased policies which encourage big corporations to abuse UK workers and harm small companies. If we leave the EU, this corporate culture, the culture Boris Johnson supports, will only get worse!
Remember our government wont be able to blame anyone else if they try and shaft the public.
Given the level of distrust and hatred to the politicians now, I don't see either labour or conservative trying it on.
14 June 2016 | 11:48 AM
#1663
Scooby Senior
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
From: North Wales
Why will it, you dont know that working rights wont be improved beyond what the EU demands.
Remember our government wont be able to blame anyone else if they try and shaft the public.
Given the level of distrust and hatred to the politicians now, I don't see either labour or conservative trying it on.
Remember our government wont be able to blame anyone else if they try and shaft the public.
Given the level of distrust and hatred to the politicians now, I don't see either labour or conservative trying it on.
You're right we don't, but seeing as most of the working rights we want were 'forced' on us by the EU, I somehow doubt it.
Also, if they shaft us, there is no one they will have to answer to, like, say, the EU. We can vote out a party, for sure, but experience shows us that they are broadly the same, and rarely undo the unpopular from previous administrations.
14 June 2016 | 12:52 PM
#1664
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,296
Likes: 118
From: Api 500+bhp MD321T @91dB Probably SN's longest owner of an Impreza Turbo
You're right we don't, but seeing as most of the working rights we want were 'forced' on us by the EU, I somehow doubt it.
Also, if they shaft us, there is no one they will have to answer to, like, say, the EU. We can vote out a party, for sure, but experience shows us that they are broadly the same, and rarely undo the unpopular from previous administrations.
Also, if they shaft us, there is no one they will have to answer to, like, say, the EU. We can vote out a party, for sure, but experience shows us that they are broadly the same, and rarely undo the unpopular from previous administrations.
14 June 2016 | 01:02 PM
#1665
Scooby Senior
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
From: North Wales
14 June 2016 | 01:20 PM
#1666
Scooby Regular
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,296
Likes: 118
From: Api 500+bhp MD321T @91dB Probably SN's longest owner of an Impreza Turbo
Dont be too skeptical, who would of thought the UK could be leaving the EU, anything can happen
Last edited by andy97; 14 June 2016 at 01:26 PM.
14 June 2016 | 01:42 PM
#1667
Scooby Senior
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 5,826
Likes: 0
From: North Wales
14 June 2016 | 02:00 PM
#1668
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 15,633
Likes: 21
From: K
just look at the voting record of the prominent Brexiters on things like minimum wage, holiday pay, maternity pay, consumer rights
details to be found here
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/
it would take a change of heart of damascene proportions to think things would change with those crazies in charge
Last edited by hodgy0_2; 14 June 2016 at 02:05 PM.
14 June 2016 | 02:15 PM
#1669
Scooby Senior
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,635
Likes: 229
From: Friedrichshafen Germany/Preston UK
I think the UK has enough problems of its own doing without having to bring on more problems by leaving the EU! We should tidy our own back yard before trying to clean the streets!
We need to reform the house of Lords (If you want to talk about the unelected, then you can start with this lot!).
We need to reform the UK voting system with true proportional representation and not that stupid AV system they tried to fob us off with!
We need regional devolution in England to remove the London-centric decision making we currently have! Moving Parliament to Manchester or Birmingham would also help this IMHO. Also more devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so we can make real decisions where the people understand whats needed.
We need to sort out the welfare state so that only people who genuinely need benefits get them. No contributions = no benefits unless you genuinely can't work. We should boot apprenticeships and OTJ Training to ensure we have the skilled labour we need and are not so dependent on immigrant workers. We need to bin the stupid idea that everyone should go to university - we need builders, farmers, cleaners not unemployable media studies graduates!
We need to move away from the corporate culture and promote small, privately owned businesses that aren't pushed to keep growing beyond their means by greedy stock markets. The reason the German economy is so resiliant is because of thier "Mittlestand" companies - we should be following a similar model!
We also need Press reforms to guarantee freedom from political bias and independence, not all the big news outlets own by one foreign megalomaniac who's free to print whatever bull**** he wants with no restraints. Some of the crap that's been printed in the press (in fairness from both sides, although there is very little pro-remain press), is just plain wrong and the public deserve the truth rather than the populist lies that are currently spouted out!
We need to properly reform the NHS. We need to stop looking at the NHS as some great institution than shouldn't be changed and properly sort it out! The principles of the NHS that everyone is entitled to state of the art, free health care is correct. But the system we've built up to do that is a complete failure. We need to start from the ground up and invent a modern NHS with a modern structure that meets the principles that we expect from the NHS! We don't need all the fat cat Hospital managers, Regional managers at all the other wasters bleeding the NHS dry at the cost of patient care!
These are all UK problems, not EU problems! We should sort these problems out, then we can start looking at weather the EU is good or bad for us! We could even start cleaning up the bad within the EU rather than just leaving!
We need to reform the house of Lords (If you want to talk about the unelected, then you can start with this lot!).
We need to reform the UK voting system with true proportional representation and not that stupid AV system they tried to fob us off with!
We need regional devolution in England to remove the London-centric decision making we currently have! Moving Parliament to Manchester or Birmingham would also help this IMHO. Also more devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so we can make real decisions where the people understand whats needed.
We need to sort out the welfare state so that only people who genuinely need benefits get them. No contributions = no benefits unless you genuinely can't work. We should boot apprenticeships and OTJ Training to ensure we have the skilled labour we need and are not so dependent on immigrant workers. We need to bin the stupid idea that everyone should go to university - we need builders, farmers, cleaners not unemployable media studies graduates!
We need to move away from the corporate culture and promote small, privately owned businesses that aren't pushed to keep growing beyond their means by greedy stock markets. The reason the German economy is so resiliant is because of thier "Mittlestand" companies - we should be following a similar model!
We also need Press reforms to guarantee freedom from political bias and independence, not all the big news outlets own by one foreign megalomaniac who's free to print whatever bull**** he wants with no restraints. Some of the crap that's been printed in the press (in fairness from both sides, although there is very little pro-remain press), is just plain wrong and the public deserve the truth rather than the populist lies that are currently spouted out!
We need to properly reform the NHS. We need to stop looking at the NHS as some great institution than shouldn't be changed and properly sort it out! The principles of the NHS that everyone is entitled to state of the art, free health care is correct. But the system we've built up to do that is a complete failure. We need to start from the ground up and invent a modern NHS with a modern structure that meets the principles that we expect from the NHS! We don't need all the fat cat Hospital managers, Regional managers at all the other wasters bleeding the NHS dry at the cost of patient care!
These are all UK problems, not EU problems! We should sort these problems out, then we can start looking at weather the EU is good or bad for us! We could even start cleaning up the bad within the EU rather than just leaving!
14 June 2016 | 02:24 PM
#1670
I think the UK has enough problems of its own doing without having to bring on more problems by leaving the EU! We should tidy our own back yard before trying to clean the streets!
We need to reform the house of Lords (If you want to talk about the unelected, then you can start with this lot!).
We need to reform the UK voting system with true proportional representation and not that stupid AV system they tried to fob us off with!
We need regional devolution in England to remove the London-centric decision making we currently have! Moving Parliament to Manchester or Birmingham would also help this IMHO. Also more devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so we can make real decisions where the people understand whats needed.
We need to sort out the welfare state so that only people who genuinely need benefits get them. No contributions = no benefits unless you genuinely can't work. We should boot apprenticeships and OTJ Training to ensure we have the skilled labour we need and are not so dependent on immigrant workers. We need to bin the stupid idea that everyone should go to university - we need builders, farmers, cleaners not unemployable media studies graduates!
We need to move away from the corporate culture and promote small, privately owned businesses that aren't pushed to keep growing beyond their means by greedy stock markets. The reason the German economy is so resiliant is because of thier "Mittlestand" companies - we should be following a similar model!
We also need Press reforms to guarantee freedom from political bias and independence, not all the big news outlets own by one foreign megalomaniac who's free to print whatever bull**** he wants with no restraints. Some of the crap that's been printed in the press (in fairness from both sides, although there is very little pro-remain press), is just plain wrong and the public deserve the truth rather than the populist lies that are currently spouted out!
We need to properly reform the NHS. We need to stop looking at the NHS as some great institution than shouldn't be changed and properly sort it out! The principles of the NHS that everyone is entitled to state of the art, free health care is correct. But the system we've built up to do that is a complete failure. We need to start from the ground up and invent a modern NHS with a modern structure that meets the principles that we expect from the NHS! We don't need all the fat cat Hospital managers, Regional managers at all the other wasters bleeding the NHS dry at the cost of patient care!
These are all UK problems, not EU problems! We should sort these problems out, then we can start looking at weather the EU is good or bad for us! We could even start cleaning up the bad within the EU rather than just leaving!
We need to reform the house of Lords (If you want to talk about the unelected, then you can start with this lot!).
We need to reform the UK voting system with true proportional representation and not that stupid AV system they tried to fob us off with!
We need regional devolution in England to remove the London-centric decision making we currently have! Moving Parliament to Manchester or Birmingham would also help this IMHO. Also more devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so we can make real decisions where the people understand whats needed.
We need to sort out the welfare state so that only people who genuinely need benefits get them. No contributions = no benefits unless you genuinely can't work. We should boot apprenticeships and OTJ Training to ensure we have the skilled labour we need and are not so dependent on immigrant workers. We need to bin the stupid idea that everyone should go to university - we need builders, farmers, cleaners not unemployable media studies graduates!
We need to move away from the corporate culture and promote small, privately owned businesses that aren't pushed to keep growing beyond their means by greedy stock markets. The reason the German economy is so resiliant is because of thier "Mittlestand" companies - we should be following a similar model!
We also need Press reforms to guarantee freedom from political bias and independence, not all the big news outlets own by one foreign megalomaniac who's free to print whatever bull**** he wants with no restraints. Some of the crap that's been printed in the press (in fairness from both sides, although there is very little pro-remain press), is just plain wrong and the public deserve the truth rather than the populist lies that are currently spouted out!
We need to properly reform the NHS. We need to stop looking at the NHS as some great institution than shouldn't be changed and properly sort it out! The principles of the NHS that everyone is entitled to state of the art, free health care is correct. But the system we've built up to do that is a complete failure. We need to start from the ground up and invent a modern NHS with a modern structure that meets the principles that we expect from the NHS! We don't need all the fat cat Hospital managers, Regional managers at all the other wasters bleeding the NHS dry at the cost of patient care!
These are all UK problems, not EU problems! We should sort these problems out, then we can start looking at weather the EU is good or bad for us! We could even start cleaning up the bad within the EU rather than just leaving!
Put it another way, would being in the EU make doing all that easier ?
14 June 2016 | 02:54 PM
#1671
Moderator
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 38,046
Likes: 301
From: The hell where youth and laughter go
I think the UK has enough problems of its own doing without having to bring on more problems by leaving the EU! We should tidy our own back yard before trying to clean the streets!
We need to reform the house of Lords (If you want to talk about the unelected, then you can start with this lot!).
We need to reform the UK voting system with true proportional representation and not that stupid AV system they tried to fob us off with!
We need regional devolution in England to remove the London-centric decision making we currently have! Moving Parliament to Manchester or Birmingham would also help this IMHO. Also more devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so we can make real decisions where the people understand whats needed.
We need to sort out the welfare state so that only people who genuinely need benefits get them. No contributions = no benefits unless you genuinely can't work. We should boot apprenticeships and OTJ Training to ensure we have the skilled labour we need and are not so dependent on immigrant workers. We need to bin the stupid idea that everyone should go to university - we need builders, farmers, cleaners not unemployable media studies graduates!
We need to move away from the corporate culture and promote small, privately owned businesses that aren't pushed to keep growing beyond their means by greedy stock markets. The reason the German economy is so resiliant is because of thier "Mittlestand" companies - we should be following a similar model!
We also need Press reforms to guarantee freedom from political bias and independence, not all the big news outlets own by one foreign megalomaniac who's free to print whatever bull**** he wants with no restraints. Some of the crap that's been printed in the press (in fairness from both sides, although there is very little pro-remain press), is just plain wrong and the public deserve the truth rather than the populist lies that are currently spouted out!
We need to properly reform the NHS. We need to stop looking at the NHS as some great institution than shouldn't be changed and properly sort it out! The principles of the NHS that everyone is entitled to state of the art, free health care is correct. But the system we've built up to do that is a complete failure. We need to start from the ground up and invent a modern NHS with a modern structure that meets the principles that we expect from the NHS! We don't need all the fat cat Hospital managers, Regional managers at all the other wasters bleeding the NHS dry at the cost of patient care!
These are all UK problems, not EU problems! We should sort these problems out, then we can start looking at weather the EU is good or bad for us! We could even start cleaning up the bad within the EU rather than just leaving!
We need to reform the house of Lords (If you want to talk about the unelected, then you can start with this lot!).
We need to reform the UK voting system with true proportional representation and not that stupid AV system they tried to fob us off with!
We need regional devolution in England to remove the London-centric decision making we currently have! Moving Parliament to Manchester or Birmingham would also help this IMHO. Also more devolution to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland so we can make real decisions where the people understand whats needed.
We need to sort out the welfare state so that only people who genuinely need benefits get them. No contributions = no benefits unless you genuinely can't work. We should boot apprenticeships and OTJ Training to ensure we have the skilled labour we need and are not so dependent on immigrant workers. We need to bin the stupid idea that everyone should go to university - we need builders, farmers, cleaners not unemployable media studies graduates!
We need to move away from the corporate culture and promote small, privately owned businesses that aren't pushed to keep growing beyond their means by greedy stock markets. The reason the German economy is so resiliant is because of thier "Mittlestand" companies - we should be following a similar model!
We also need Press reforms to guarantee freedom from political bias and independence, not all the big news outlets own by one foreign megalomaniac who's free to print whatever bull**** he wants with no restraints. Some of the crap that's been printed in the press (in fairness from both sides, although there is very little pro-remain press), is just plain wrong and the public deserve the truth rather than the populist lies that are currently spouted out!
We need to properly reform the NHS. We need to stop looking at the NHS as some great institution than shouldn't be changed and properly sort it out! The principles of the NHS that everyone is entitled to state of the art, free health care is correct. But the system we've built up to do that is a complete failure. We need to start from the ground up and invent a modern NHS with a modern structure that meets the principles that we expect from the NHS! We don't need all the fat cat Hospital managers, Regional managers at all the other wasters bleeding the NHS dry at the cost of patient care!
These are all UK problems, not EU problems! We should sort these problems out, then we can start looking at weather the EU is good or bad for us! We could even start cleaning up the bad within the EU rather than just leaving!
I totally agree. And I think anyone here would be silly to disagree on this. Our problems are ours.
However...what are our choices?
We have a two (once three) party system to represent us. Of those three main parties all show the same ignorance or inability to tackle those issues you mention.
We cannot get rid of them
We have no referendum on devolved England
We have no referendum on reforming the Lords
We have no true referendum on reforming our voting system (4million UKIP votes gives one seat in the commons).
What's more, as things stand it's unlikely we ever will. I believe the EU referendum changes that...for the first time ever it's got politicians properly worried (and rightly so).
Its no coincidence that we are seeing this vote rebellion; When the three main parties (if you call lib dem a main party now) are pro EU and the average voter who doesn't want any of these three parties carrying on like they've done for the past several decades (regardless of their EU stance) but has no way of voicing that desire. So is it any wonder there is such a backlash, especially amongst hardcore labour voters; where the politicians they voted for don't represent their interests.
Whilst I don't want to be out of the EU (just in case anyone forgot that
) I cannot see any other way of getting our politician's attention.
14 June 2016 | 03:11 PM
#1672
Scooby Senior
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,635
Likes: 229
From: Friedrichshafen Germany/Preston UK
The point is, the EU is seemingly being blamed for everything that is wrong with the UK and that's just not true! We could do a lot about the immigration problem by restricting non-EU migration, but we're not, but its very easy to blame all the immigration problems on the EU alone which isn't really correct!
Leaving the EU poses a massive risk the the UK economy. We already have enough problems to deal with without having to deal with all the problems that will come from leaving the EU! The EU problems really are the least of our problems and we could start addressing the EU problems from within the EU at the same time as dealing with our own problems!
The problems are not the EU, the problems are politics in general and the press having more control than the politicians!
How can it be that 80% of our elected leaders are pro remain. Virtually all economists and reputable world leaders are pro-remain. All UK scientists and universities are pro-remain. Yet only a hand full are pro leave, including right wing Conservatives, ultra right wing nationalist organisations such as BNP, Britain First and UKIP, a hand full of business leaders (such as Sir James Dyson), who exports are mainly non EU, who are already guilty of moved UK manufacturing jobs to the East Asia (countries with poor working conditions and child labour) and will personally benefit greatly from the UK leaving the EU, no doubt to the detriment of their remaining UK employees having more jobs exported to cheaper lands?
How can it be that seemingly the majority of the UK, believe these minority of extremists? Perhaps it has a lot to do with that foreign megalomaniac Rupert Murdoch who controls nearly all the UK's media and wants us to leave because its the policy which is selling more newspapers and making him even richer!
14 June 2016 | 03:19 PM
#1673
Scooby Senior
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,635
Likes: 229
From: Friedrichshafen Germany/Preston UK
I totally agree. And I think anyone here would be silly to disagree on this. Our problems are ours.
However...what are our choices?
We have a two (once three) party system to represent us. Of those three main parties all show the same ignorance or inability to tackle those issues you mention.
We cannot get rid of them
We have no referendum on devolved England
We have no referendum on reforming the Lords
We have no true referendum on reforming our voting system (4million UKIP votes gives one seat in the commons).
What's more, as things stand it's unlikely we ever will. I believe the EU referendum changes that...for the first time ever it's got politicians properly worried (and rightly so).
Its no coincidence that we are seeing this vote rebellion; When the three main parties (if you call lib dem a main party now) are pro EU and the average voter who doesn't want any of these three parties carrying on like they've done for the past several decades (regardless of their EU stance) but has no way of voicing that desire. So is it any wonder there is such a backlash, especially amongst hardcore labour voters; where the politicians they voted for don't represent their interests.
Whilst I don't want to be out of the EU (just in case anyone forgot that ) I cannot see any other way of getting our politician's attention.
However...what are our choices?
We have a two (once three) party system to represent us. Of those three main parties all show the same ignorance or inability to tackle those issues you mention.
We cannot get rid of them
We have no referendum on devolved England
We have no referendum on reforming the Lords
We have no true referendum on reforming our voting system (4million UKIP votes gives one seat in the commons).
What's more, as things stand it's unlikely we ever will. I believe the EU referendum changes that...for the first time ever it's got politicians properly worried (and rightly so).
Its no coincidence that we are seeing this vote rebellion; When the three main parties (if you call lib dem a main party now) are pro EU and the average voter who doesn't want any of these three parties carrying on like they've done for the past several decades (regardless of their EU stance) but has no way of voicing that desire. So is it any wonder there is such a backlash, especially amongst hardcore labour voters; where the politicians they voted for don't represent their interests.
Whilst I don't want to be out of the EU (just in case anyone forgot that
) I cannot see any other way of getting our politician's attention.This is really the crux of it! People are voting to leave as a protest against the system! I don't think they really, in their heart of hearts want to leave the EU, then just want to shout and be heard for a change! And I'm very much with them on this!
But leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for the UK! The people need to find a better way of protesting against the system and making their voices heard! Maybe taking a leaf out of the French's book would be a good idea! Remember the fuel protests in the UK a few years ago - that worked! The government listened to the people!
Maybe more united, organised, direct protesting against the government is the solution! But permanently damaging the UK by leaving the EU, just to make a point, is not the way forward!
14 June 2016 | 04:36 PM
#1676
Scooby Regular
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 7,647
Likes: 22
This is really the crux of it! People are voting to leave as a protest against the system! I don't think they really, in their heart of hearts want to leave the EU, then just want to shout and be heard for a change! And I'm very much with them on this!
But leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for the UK! The people need to find a better way of protesting against the system and making their voices heard! Maybe taking a leaf out of the French's book would be a good idea! Remember the fuel protests in the UK a few years ago - that worked! The government listened to the people!
Maybe more united, organised, direct protesting against the government is the solution! But permanently damaging the UK by leaving the EU, just to make a point, is not the way forward!
But leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for the UK! The people need to find a better way of protesting against the system and making their voices heard! Maybe taking a leaf out of the French's book would be a good idea! Remember the fuel protests in the UK a few years ago - that worked! The government listened to the people!
Maybe more united, organised, direct protesting against the government is the solution! But permanently damaging the UK by leaving the EU, just to make a point, is not the way forward!
But both sides of the argument presented by each side are only driven to highlight the worst case scenarios and the great risks posed with either choice, failure of the economy for out, full integration for being in. In my opinion, as always the truth will lie somewhere in the middle. I don't think we will be affected massively either way, the world will still continue, countries will still continue to trade, people will still come in and out of the country, everyone will still go about their way of life with little change to one's circumstances.
14 June 2016 | 04:38 PM
#1677
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 14,758
Likes: 0
From: Home
14 June 2016 | 06:57 PM
#1678
Scooby Regular
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 5,387
Likes: 0
From: Scoobynet
This is really the crux of it! People are voting to leave as a protest against the system! I don't think they really, in their heart of hearts want to leave the EU, then just want to shout and be heard for a change! And I'm very much with them on this!
But leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for the UK! The people need to find a better way of protesting against the system and making their voices heard! Maybe taking a leaf out of the French's book would be a good idea! Remember the fuel protests in the UK a few years ago - that worked! The government listened to the people!
Maybe more united, organised, direct protesting against the government is the solution! But permanently damaging the UK by leaving the EU, just to make a point, is not the way forward!
But leaving the EU would be an absolute disaster for the UK! The people need to find a better way of protesting against the system and making their voices heard! Maybe taking a leaf out of the French's book would be a good idea! Remember the fuel protests in the UK a few years ago - that worked! The government listened to the people!
Maybe more united, organised, direct protesting against the government is the solution! But permanently damaging the UK by leaving the EU, just to make a point, is not the way forward!
14 June 2016 | 07:41 PM
#1679
Scooby Regular
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,222
Likes: 0
From: Type 25. Build No.34
What a load of BS! People are voting to leave because they don't want the UK to be part of a failed socialist experiment any longer, it's nothing to do with a protest against the system at all, it's a vote towards building a more stable and sustainable platform for the future of the UK.
Surely in your more reflective moments you must realise that this is nonsense.
This has overwhelmingly been about immigration (or the fear thereof) and anti-politics. To say the majority of leave supporters are rebelling against a 'failed socialist experiment' is just daft.
Last edited by Martin2005; 14 June 2016 at 07:43 PM.
