Hodgy, you make me laugh

 

And yet there are people the leave side who believe the EU will be begging to trade with us if we leave. I think you're far closer to reality personally.

 

yes, this is what I find so extraordinary

do people really believe it - really

they must do, they think that the EU it is all one big con, offering nothing

and we can up sticks leave, and then nock back on the door, with a big "wad of folding" and simply ask to re-tarmac the drive - and carry on trading as if nothing has happened

I honestly can't wait for the mass recognition that they have been simply lied to

 

I don't know what the result will be, but a lot of my friends can see some tough times ahead for the UK in the long run, if 'leave' wins. All the reasons have been previously put on the table here, so I'm not repeating.
They say that it will be like a marriage broken; like a thoughtless divorce.

 

Nonsense , were all going to be 6 quid a week better off

Well, at best

 

I think the argument goes...


They sell us more than we sell them, therefore they'd be mad not to give us the same access to the single market as we have now - sound logical doesn't it?


The difficulty is that our trade deficit is very large with a few countries (mainly Germany), but we have a trade surplus with many EU countries, so their motivations are going to be somewhat different to Germany's.


Whatever deal we do with the EU has to be done with 27 countries, the deal has to be unanimously agreed upon by those countries. For a lot of those nations freedom of movement (amongst other things) will be the over-riding issue, not trade. So what are we going to offer them?


The bottom-line is we will either have to pay for access and have freedom of movement, or leave the single market and accept the obvious economic consequences - THOSE ARE THE CHOICES. Anyone telling you different is not telling you the truth.

 

The average Joe doesn't understand this.

 

yes it's crazy

then they talk about "rational self interest"

its the same type of deluded b0ll0x that Alan Greenspan spun about the banking collapse of 2008

"the banks simply could not collapse because rational self interest simply would not allow it"

maybe these people are the same people that click the links to

"Wanna meet a housewife near you, no sign-up, no credit card, no bullsh1t"

 

Bloody free loaders

 

Why does there have to be free movement? The rest of the world trade without this being a necessity.

I understand about a club and all that, also the theory of free movement is fine.

The reality is though is very much different. because that a few countries are doing much better than others, large amounts of people flock to countries and have overwhelmed their housing, social services, healthcare, causing concerns, fears from the invaded countries,

This has also caused a people drain on the poorer countries within the EU, which cant generate enough income due to lack of people, a vicious circle from unchecked, uncontrolled movement. They will never for the foreseeable future become desirable for their original population to return

The EU is not willing to allow individual countries some control over this, creating resentment. That shows to me that the EU is not working in the best interest of the member countries.

 

Those are the challenges of the free-market


These things probably shouldn't be judged on the short-term impact, instead viewed through a much longer lens, then it all makes much more sense

 

yes I agree

the EU is FAR from perfect

 

It is, but more alarming is its unwillingness to alter and accommodate individual countries needs. Fuelling the backlash of resentment

 

I know both sides have said stupid things, but this is one of the most stupid yet, the threat of the EU reneging on the deal.


I mean, really, why would they? They want the UK to stay, either because they fear a Brexit will pave the way for other countries to leave, or because the UK is seen as key to the success, or the money we give is too much to lose, or whatever, it doesn't really matter.


So, we vote to remain, they say "well, we're not honouring that". What do you think the UK will do? Despite what the Leave campaign have you believe, we are a sovereign state, the ultimate authority for law in the UK is Parliament. There is nothing they can do to stop us leaving. Hell, if they did that, I would back a Leave vote.


To suggest otherwise it simply misleading.

 

I never said which way until now.

 

You are welcome to your opinion, just like I am. But it seems you dont like my projection or gut feeling but then I couldn't give a flying **** either way.

If we remain then I will quite happily revisit this thread in 6 months-1 year time and lets see how we are doing. Quite happy to be proved wrong but I doubt it .

 

but compared to others we get a pretty good deal, and we have quite a lot of influence

maybe, this vote will be a wake up call

 

after watching a lot of stuff about it in my opinion it comes down to rich v poor.

the rich have fair reason to vote in as it benefits them and the poor want out as to them its all about immigration driving their wages down to them.

oh and the under 25s are clueless.

 

Wake up for whom?

You must have noticed and read/heard that the EU's ultimate aim is to merge all countries into one?

Do you want that?

I don't, when I go to Europe I want to see different things from each individual countries, not the same.

If the EU is to redeem itself it should take several step back and allow more autonomy from individual countries over what they see fit to control

 

have you got a source for that?

 

yes, I made point a few pages ago, in connection with the nebulous idea of "freedom and control"

the richer you are the more freedom and control you have - simple

 

Further evidence that it's in Britain's best interests to leave, following Mr Bliar saying we ought to remain, is that Mr Beckham, that well known footballing intellectual, also says today that we ought to remain.

For goodness sake, I saw someone in the Remain camp with a beard the other day. What more proof do you need?

Roll on Friday....

 

It's not your projection, you have just repeated it, I wasn't having a go at you.


Instead of taking umbrage, why don't you address the point? Bearing in mind why I think it's unlikely, please explain why you think the EU would renege on it? What would they have to gain?

 

When you said I repeated it, did you mean I had mentioned this before or I was repeating someone else's comment ?

And I took no umbrage ( though as you called me stupid yet said you were not having a go at me ) , as I mentioned I couldn't give a toss what you thought. I have nothing to suggest they will, I just feel that post vote and we remain in, then I think our position will be far shakier than currently.
And all the assurances that they gave to Cameron will be hotly contested or watered down.

As before it is my belief that is what will happen (amongst all the other backroom dealing that will go on) but quite happy to be proved wrong.

 

Here is a recent one
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-official.html

Jean Monnet(founder of the European project) was credited as to saying this

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation.”

or

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening.”


https://eufundedproeutroll.wordpress...he-superstate/

Now it was either all bullsh!t or looking back at what has actually happened with treaty changes over the last 20 years or so. Do you think that there might be some weight by the argument?

 

No, it's an old Leave thing, not that you repeated it from yourself or from someone earlier in this thread. Also, I said it was a stupid thing to say, I never said you were stupid. I can see why you may have thought that, but that was not my intention!


But, again, what have they to gain? The mood of roughly 50% of the population is leave, they cannot stop us leaving is we choose to.


What rationale (not gut feeling) have you for saying they will renege on it?

 

My rationale is that a) given the length of time it took to get those assurances and the outcome of those so called "fantastic " deals, the reality is that it has done nothing for us in the long term and in fact proved the opposite by polarising the other member states and b) the way the EU operates behind the scenes shows there is little they wont stop at rolling out their master plan . We the UK will just be the proverbial 'winging pom'

And what is wrong with having a gut feeling. It has stood me well in the past and really I dont trust those lot in Brussels as far as I could throw them.

On the flip side I dont exactly have much faith in a large portion of the current govt to hold true to their promises anyway. If I had to be 100% honest, the only nagging thing in the back of my mind is if we leave we would have to send out our crack team of trade negotiators to do deals with the rest of the world. And god I worry about the " crack team"

 

Would we be allowed proper light bulbs if we leave

 

What is not to like about LED technology apart from the price

 

you mean the ones that came on and provided instant light instead of the " oh lets warm up gradually like a ****ing 50's Grundig TV set whilst you stumble around the room in a dim light tripping over **** and standing on lego" style ?