DRUNKNORGY

I have been following this thread and felt that a point has been overlooked.
The average weight of a scoob is around 1300 KG (or 230 bhp ish per ton and with the transmission soaking up 30-40 bhp? correct me if I'm wrong)A car putting out 300 bhp at the crank will be 260-270 bhp? on the asphalt.
The average weight of a modern sportsblke is between 165-180 KG. (an R1 offers over 850 bhp per metric ton (or 130-135 bhp at the back wheel.
Any rider who pushes their bike hard be it with knee down or classic riding style(as opposed to reaching their own riding limits) will know that riding on a rough surface will seriously slow them down. As with a car when your suspension reaches the limits of its travel and the wheels leaves the road you have no control over your direction. A bumpy surface will seriously unsettle a rider as they are manhandling the machine through the bends ( bear in mind that the suspension of a sports bike has very short travel to suit track conditions and the scoobs are set up for forest stages. A well set up car with power steering does not require anywhere near the level of input to achieve the same thing (This is where the skill part comes into it and makes even mediocre drivers look good). If you ask any Rider/Driver what they prefer, driving a quick car or riding a quick bike they will say 9 times out of 10 a bike because you cannot get the same reward from car driving. You only get out what you put in. The main fly in the ointment for bikes is road contamination or debris and the fear of this is what holds most back, As for grip, we go back to the weight issue again and even though there is a lot more tread on the road with a car, there is also over 7 times more weight trying to force a slide.

Andy Porter

I can go round long sweeping bends about 15% quicker on the bike than the Scoob. The bike handles btter than the car at high corner speeds.
However, on slow/bumpy bends the car will always win.
Acceleration on the bike is MUCH quicker than the car.
Regards,
Andyp
95 STI
99 CBR6

^Qwerty^

Thats what I was trying to say, but never managed it So how do you measure grip?

My Scooby is a lot closer to my bike in cornering ability on fast sweepers, and is substancially better on some slower ones, but I really really really don't see how the Mrs's VW Polo with its crappy Ecom-Wyso-Cheap-Dyke-Seeker narrow OEM tyres will get around 70-80mph type corners faster than my bike, on the pure reason that the car runs out of grip. Yet the Scooby on the very same corner with me driving and riding at the same time (if it were possible) would be hounding the bike to get past... possibly....(yer it would if I were honest about my riding/driving ability).
But as someone has said, I'd pick the bike everytime in the dry, because the mental reward you get when you get a corner "right" can't be matched in the car, but thats not what we are talking about.

Superb discussion so far

ukhuskynox

"On 4th May, the MRO held their meeting at Snetterton. I decided to look at the 400 Supersport class. Your average 400 puts out around 60bhp and weighs in at 170kgs, thats a PWR of 0.35bhp/kg, so pretty close. Fastest lap? 1:18.71"

Thats is incorrect, 400cc bikes do NOT race with MRO

Just my 2p

Andy - GP250 mechanic

[Edited by ukhuskynox - 6/14/2002 5:40:30 PM]

NotoriousREV

Sorry, it wasn't MRO, it was Bemsee, but the results were off www.mro.org.uk so it confused me

And Qwerty, I'll apologise for the tosser remark, seeing as it's friday

ukhuskynox

It was indeed Bemsee.....winning 600cc time 5/5/02 1:12.61

^Qwerty^

Thanks

I can see ur point of view, and hopefully you can see mine (not even a point of view I guess) but what people see, or experience when they ride/drive their bikes and cars. I *really* wasn't having a dig at you in my first post, and hopefuly you can see that now, after the development of the discussion.

Now Im at Donington in two weeks... do you think they'll let me take the car and bike on the track to do comparisions?

ttfn

NotoriousREV

If they do, I want in too

BTW, Andy, which 250's do you work with, TZ's or RS's?

DRUNKNORGY

The Scoob tackles the cornering in a clever way which bike manufacturers have been slow to catch up with and thats with all wheel drive, In a rear wheel driven vehicle (ie bikes and 95% of cars when cornering) , inertia wants to make the vehicle continue in a straight line and when the front wheels turn, the weight is transfered onto the front of the vehicle. A 4 wheel drive transfers the weight back to the rear wheels by powering the front end and helps to redress the balance.This is where the skill comes in as a rider will balance the weight of the bike on the throttle and reduce the load on the front tyre. Yamaha is working on a 2 wheel drive system at the moment which is a hydraulic system driven from the front sprocket through kevlar hoses. It is already in the prototyping stage and has been under developement for 10 years. When it comes on line, it will give a similar advantage scoobs have over 2 WD cars.

Jon1T

..and respect to Denzil Dog for one of the best scoobynet threads for ages.....even if he is a (Ba Baracus voice)'crazy fule'

ukhuskynox

TZ's for me although I might be @ Snetterton next weekend throwing spanners @ a RS

I am a 250 GP bike tart

actually i'd love to own one but....
@ Snett. they will use 0.5L of fuel a lap...and the unleaded is about £3.00 a Litre or about £1.00 for Avgas and you have to replace the pistons every 250 miles

numbskull

It's not the cornering where the car wins, (which will be about the same with a good bike and rider), but the braking.

The bike's maximum braking force is when the back wheel starts lifting off the ground, effectively leaving it with only the front tyre providing the braking traction.

The car, although heavier, has a much lower centre of gravity in proportion to the car. Therefore all four tyres keep traction and are the limiting factor.

In the twisties, I imagine that the bike's advantage in acceleration and the car's advantage in braking would near enough cancel each other out.

Jon1T

yes- but don't forget that a bike has a lot less mass - so less braking effort is needed to bring to a halt for agiven speed - excluding the effect of Scoob's ABS - see it's all variable - you can never make a definitive statment on this!

kenb@manx

Trust me, you can be sure about brakes. My other toy is an R1 and I have explored the brakes all the way to a crash (it's not big and it's not clever, you should see the cost of insurance now). Performance cars really do have the edge on superbike brakes because of the contact patch on the road. Sure the R1 will lift the rear wheel at over 100 mph but it doesn't stop you any quicker. And in the wet there is no contest at all. Sorry to disagree but at speeds above 100 a car goes round corners better too. Whether it's the increased gyroscopic effect or the (my??) inability to get big angles of lean (no knee down at these speeds matey, I'm not sure but your average cebera made mincemeat of me coming down the mountain curves a couple of years ago. No contest in a straight line though. It's the bike every time.
A couple of years ago bike (might have been superbike) magazine did a head to head with an R1 and a scooby. The scooby won by a fraction overall because of the brakes and turns. I can't find the article just now but would be interested to see if anyone else saw it.

ken

bluto22b

I agree with Neil (Mr Moderator). You cannot play roulette with your conscience. I couldn't live with myself if I blew one away in the Maxi and he injured himself or worse trying to keep up. Seriously though, don't take them on brothers and sisters. If you want to race, buy a blinking playstation2....Blutes

skiddusmarkus

Yeah but using the maxi gives you an unfair power to weight advantage over the bike,so not a fair comparison.The grip from the 135 tyres and braking from the solid discs and drums will have the bikers running scared.Not to mention the superier aerodynamics.....

Sphyncter

Well blow me, considering Mutant-Matt states that this thread has been "Done to death", I am astounded at the number of responses and the degree of differing views.

Still, It's nice to see you guys on this forum having a "Healthy" debate.

One poster stated that "Most Bikers cant ride". I'd be interested to see where he gets this "Evidence" from. Seems aretty subjective generalisation to me.

I have riden bikes for about 7 years, and NOTHING (in driving terms) can beat the feeling you get when your knee hit's the deck, and you know youv'e taken the bend well.

Interstingly, many people who have subaru's also state that they get more fun from riding their bikes, in suitable conditions.

I just like the exhilaration I get from speed, and the exitement I get from pushing a vehicle (whether bike or fast car) as far as I can, WITHOUT endangering outher road users.

Scooby's are fantastic cars. I wish I cpould afford one. I'll just have to get my kicks out of my £5K bike, until I have a spare £15K to spend on a nice sccop.

BTW, Capri's are the greatest classic sports car of all time

scottdg

imho - in the real world it all depends on who is at the wheel/bars.

They're all fast, can't we be happy with that. At least we're not all driving 950 diesel fiesta's!!!!

CataIunya

Didn't they do roadtest in EVO magazine betweena bike and evo 6 and many othe cars?
I think the evo6 won round this twisty track

Tiggs

whos done track days in their car and on their bike? if you have and your car is quicker its either cause you cant ride a bike or your car is a caterham.

i have never heard of a scoob getting round a track as quick as a quick bike- not ever.

T

ps- i went to goodwood as a passenger with my mate a few weeks back in his elise- my god! i could have fallen asleep has he dawdled round yet he was still passing others- i was about 20 secs per lap quicker on my R1!

ohyeah- and who said you cant get your knee down over 100mph and so a car is quicker in high speed bends???? goodwood is 100mph plus everywhere and the knee is down plenty!

[Edited by Tiggs - 6/15/2002 4:50:50 PM]

W9GTR

By far the funniest moments on this thread are the "Physics Lessons" from ntellectual Pygmies
How may G's you is pulling is vital mann as it tells you how fast you is going round da bend init!!
Keep up the good work and forget about all that inertia in 1200 or so KG's of lardy scooby mass as you try to change direction at 95mph

Not saying which is faster as there are too many variables.
But it would be fun to see it for myself if any of you fancies a combined car and bike day
for real
Steve

Rokerlad

I think it was Superbike magazine or Performance Bike ( or something like that ) that did a track test against an R1 and a STi V in 1998. Basically the R1 pi$$ed on the STi v, though they had nothing but praise for the Scooby. I still have the article somewhere...will dig it outif anyones interested.

My advice is don't mess with bikes, let them have their fun. It's far too dangerous and the fast bikes I see on my drive to work seem to be riden by lardy guys hanging on for dear life. There's one thing to be said for driving a fast car, no one can tell you are a fat b****rd.

Tiggs

and all the "ohhhhhhhhh, what about the twisties" ppl, would you call your twisties twisty if they were 4 times as wide? well on a bike they are- while your lugging your car round the corner a bike will straight line 50% of them- and you've all agreed bikes are faster in a straight line

T

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

LOL will this arguement never die?

Hands up all those that have watched the video of JohnF's westie going around the ring with the R1, anyone who does not have their hand up track it down and watch it. It is as close to a definitive answer as you'll get and rember to bear in mind that the westie is just a bit quicker through bends than a scoob not to mention how much quicker itis in a straight line (lots).

Tiggs

highlight of that video is where the R1 backs off on the straight and makes a cuppa cause john's car is soooooo slow

T

skiddusmarkus

I think the point that most people are trying to make is that on an average uk country road with all it's bumps,bends and surface imperfection,an average driver in a fastish car willl be quicker than most bikes with an average rider.On a road with a better surface it will be reversed.As for comparing R1's etc to imprezas on track,it's like comparing a touring car to a moped,a better comparison would be a dedicated sportscar with a similar power to weight ratio.

Pavlo

Well, in the Jersey Hill climb, a 250GP racing Kart pisses over everything, mainly due to grip in all directions (should pull about 2.2-2.5G in a corner).
A car is low and wide, so you can load up the tyres much more than on a bike, even if you lean like a madman.

BUT

If you are only pootling round on road tyres, where you can't get that much grip, a bike and a car are going to be pretty similar I would think.

Just my $0.02

Paul

kenb@manx

Tiggs, was that you I saw today chasing Rossi to the line in the moto gp? Top man, I take my hat off to you for getting your knee down at 100 plus. It was proper knee down with the pegs on the deck too wasn't it, and not just hanging off?

Rokerlad, I have been looking for that article this weekend and can't find it. I would like to see a copy of it to confirm my senility because I thought the scooby won by a smidgen.

Gotta go and put the dainese's on to slide round in the wet on the R1. Knee down, followed by elbow, shoulder, **** and head - all at less than 100 mph !

scoobynutta555

Read some of the comments on this thread. All i can say is that i had a "race" with an R6 last year in Milton Keynes, me in a P1. Through the roundabouts said bloke was toasted by a large margin, he only caught up as i was approaching the next roundabout. And yes we were both really going for it, i could even see the mad look in his eyes behind the visor.

flat4

i have one point to add to this endless debate:

Isle of Man TTs - average lap speed of around 130mph (race specced 1000cc road bikes)

try and get round quicker than that in a car, i think you'll find there's enough twisty bits there to suit all of you (and all on public roads )


kev