JTaylor

The problem of evil can't be explained to the layman in a few paragraphs which is why we have the story of the Fall. Do you want me to abridge the major theodicies for you? Well, I'm afraid you'll have to do a bit of work and look at said theologians (and others). Have you read The Brothers Karamazov? If not, it might be more palatable.

JTaylor

I explore the 'Problem of Evil' here to a certain extent:

https://www.scoobynet.com/non-scooby...l#post11793970

Incidentally, I have two copies of CS Lewis's The Problem of Pain. If you're seriously looking for meaningful answers to your sound questions, I'm happy to send you one of my copies for you to keep.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Many thanks, that's very kind of you but I wouldn't wish to put you to that trouble.

I struggled through an English translation of The Brothers Karamazov in my late youth and rather later in Russian (thanks MoD). Although incredible literature it apparently answered none of my questions, probably because back then I wasn't actively looking for any answers.

I referred back to the old thread and it dawned on me that we are living in an extended version of Groundhog Day.

JTaylor

Yes. I've actually acknowledged in another thread that the problem of evil is the most mysterious and paradoxical of theological issues. When one meditates upon the story of the Fall, however, the truth is revealed, but that truth is almost impossible to articulate. There's a certain knowing which human language is incapable of conveying and can only be adequately illustrated through the arts. You might wish to revisit Dostoyevsky one day.

JTaylor

Treat yourself.

Mr Fuji

Not exactly impartial, is it?

It's back to the old "oh God is wiser than us, we cannot possibly know his mind". Something else to hide behind?

JTaylor

Yet God is wiser than us. That's obvious even from a conceptual standpoint. We simply do no have a God's eye view of creation. It's not something to "hide behind"; Lewis did not and nor do I have any hiding to do, it's a matter of metaphysical fact. And why should the book be impartial? It's written by a Christian apologist for goodness sake!

Paben

iTrader: (5)

Come on now, when debating the existence or otherwise of God and His works you can hardly quote his 'obvious' wisdom to prove His existence! This is going around in circles and leading back to the beginning, one of the problems of entrenched views that are practically unshakable.

JTaylor

We were debating God's attributes and the problem of evil. I'll state again that even a conceptual view of God has to acknowledge that He is beyond the limits of human understanding and certainly beyond description in entirety owing to the limitations of human language. This is one of the reasons Jesus says that nobody can come to the Father except through Him. We can only 'know' the Father through the God-man.

People's views do change when they're prepared to swallow their pride and follow the truth. Pride's a killer.

Peedee

iTrader: (4)

Wow, the irony!

domino46

you just described my normal Saturday night

Paben

iTrader: (5)

If God and His desires are beyond human understanding then what hope is there that we might do His will? He demands faith, in effect blind faith, the two being inseparable as they are the same thing viewed from different perspectives.

And you're confusing pride with thoughtfulness and commonsense.

JTaylor

We can know the Father through the Son whose truth can be found in the Gospels. Knowing the Father is quite different from understanding His mind in its entirety; the idea that we can is absurd. And I'm not confusing anything; I have a mini-ministry building in both the 'real' world and across social media and at the root of all rebellion is pride. My experiences merely back-up what the Bible tells me. Incidentally, I don't exclude myself from this; I regularly pray for ego-death and I recommend you do the same. James 4:10.

Paben

iTrader: (5)

I fear you are losing your grasp on reality, this is borderline madness. And if you want ego death then go and find some LSD, although that can seriously misfire and send you off your head. You're not on it already are you?

Mr Fuji

Conceptually, yes, because you can say anything you like for the properties of a fictional being.

But, you put that up as en explanation as why God allows evil, and I say it doesn't really cut it. It;s like Hitler justifying the Holocaust. He has a skewed viewpoint as his starting point, it cannot be objective.

The real issue is that the world works in a logical way, but discussing God cannot allow any logic, or it all falls apart completely (o rather it cannot allow objective, logic within the narrative works, but makes no sense to an impartial observer).

I always find it interesting that people who believe in God rely on logic, doubt & proof in their lives every single day, yet cannot apply that same process to questioning what is so obviously incorrect.

There's nowt as queer as folk!

JTaylor

Infinite regress is not logical.

JTaylor

I'm not, no.

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Death-To-Self

Paben

iTrader: (5)

And is this what God wants of his children? A complete denial of self and a spiritual rebirth that has no place in the reality of normal life? Christ allegedly died on the cross to save us, not so we would copy his example. I'm sorry, but you need to get a grip before you tip over the edge.

Jamo

iTrader: (23)

Yup

Peedee

iTrader: (4)

I came to the conclusion that this guy has gone over the edge a few pages back, so stopped replying. You can’t reason with someone who’s been radicalised. I find it sad that vulnerable people like JTaylor can be so taken in by the false premise that is religion. I would perhaps understand if it led to something. You know, like if you work your entire life, you get a pension, money in your hand.......a physical renumeration to reward you for your work. What do you get for following a god for your entire life.....a good chance of suffering from some sort of debilitating condition like arthritis, dementia, heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer’s, osteoporosis etc etc etc etc, the list is endless. Gee, thanks your lordship, an entire life of worshipping you and this is how you reward me.

Torquemada

It's weird here, in Texas, most people I know are super reigious, it's just the way it is here. My mother in law is a goddist but doesn't put it on anyone else or anything, I respect that my wife's family can be religious etc. My wife is not religious, though.

I was once told by someone here that I was going to hell because I didn't worship christ. Hey ho, that's what they want to believe then I'm not going to try and change their religion. I might not think the most of them for judging me like that but it's their loss, really.

I'm not bothered as long as people don't try and force me to believe in what they do.

JTaylor

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topi...re-Like-Christ

ZANY

You've hit the nail in the head there pal
Don't know why others even bother with this individual just take the p!ss out of him sideways instead IT'LL soon go ITS own way

Mr Fuji

Infinite regress is a problem for religion too. But essentially it boils down to "we don't know yet, and may never do" for atheists or "it's God, he is eternal" for people who believe, which is as nonsensical as anything else, to be perfectly honest.

You cannot claim one is impossible and the other is not.

The Trooper 1815

iTrader: (31)

The truth is the demise of religion.
Oh and free thinking individuals who are not following a group of men who suppress women that they cannot marry but who bum young children.

neil-h

The reward is eternal paradise in heaven...

I'm sure this was covered earlier.

Peedee

iTrader: (4)

'Eternal paradise in heaven'.....sure......juuuuust after you've spent X amount of years in chronic pain confined to a hospital bed being fed through a tube. Any physical proof that this paradise exists? Few photos, bit of movie footage, maybe a couple of instagram pictures.....just something that people can be sure is there to make all the helpless suffering worth it.

JTaylor

One is more logical than the other. You believe in the virgin birth of the universe.

JTaylor

Hebrews 11:1

neil-h

You know eternity is longer than 80-90 years right?

As for physical proof, if you can come up with a way to bring people/things back from the dead (or indeed to take things with you when you die) then we'll see what happens.