kimera

i dont think the mcse is worth anything anymore anyone, any numpty can get one. forgot about chasing that years ago. the key is find something you enjot doing coz working till your 65 is along time.

P1_BEN

Have to say I agree entirely, I left school at 16 and got a job at bottom of the pile.... TAPE MONKEY.... reel tapes oh what fun.... 7 years on and i'm now apps engineer on one of the biggest internet projects in europe... also allowing me to be proud owner of P1....!!!! I agree with previous comment as well.. it's not what you know its knowing where to find it out... PS I'm a Unix person... so don't agree with MCSE anyway.......

super_si

Unix aaaaaaaaaaaaaargh i wanna dual boot that soon!

found loads junior / traning Vb asp woohoo


ta mate well good site

Si

darlodge

I started work when I left school after my GCSE's. I was 16 and got a job as an Office Junior in a small IT consultants. Since I joined my role responsibilities have increased and as a result, my pay increased. I've been there just under 3 and a half years and now earn easily more than university leavers, 5-6 years my senior

I am really glad I got a job straight from school instead of going to college and Uni as it does not give you any experience. Friends of mine that went down the Uni route and are studying Computer Courses can barely diagnose a hard disk fault, and they are half way through a degree, it’s scary really. They are (on paper) far more likely to get a job than me!! Some people think that qualifications mean more than experience and others believe the opposite, it’s really the luck of the draw.

My employer now sends me on regular training courses a year and I still get paid for them, and I get to use the new skills. If you sit a MCSE course you will easily forget about the skills unless you use them day-to-day.

Basically what I am saying is get a job now. Training can be picked up along the line.

Oh, and I am only slightly older then you. I’m 20 (going on 35 )

Darren

super_si

Ive done Computer Diploma at college Distinction got 1st year BSc behind me so think ill leave Education there now

these jobs look really good

Si

David_Wallis

that junior job could get more money than me!...doh

I get 19.5k basic.. + bonus, bens... probably get 22k

I need to move... anybody work in recruitment... want 25k..

Skills, you name it I do it.. and i dont just learn something.. I learn everything about one thing... not something about everything.. Just dont do subnetting as I hate it

David

super_si

search theres a nice Vb/asp junior job think id like that more, programming

kimera

dual boot unix hmmmm, linux/solaris person myself

unix definition of GUI = girls user interface

kimera

what skills u got david, we may be looking in leeds area

David_Wallis

well I cant drive for a start... (banned)

Windows NT (6+ Years)
Desktop Security and Roaming / HotDesking Users.
Network Associates / McAfee Antivirus Software including Epo
Veritas Backup Exec
All Internet Technologies, Including IIS.
Scripting (Kix, BatchFiles, AutoIt, WindowsScript, ADSI) + Registry
Installing and administering SMS 1.2 and 2.0 Sites and Package Deployment / Creation using SMS Installer.

Compaq Proliant Servers and Deskpro Desktops
Windows XP, Windows 2000 Pro. Windows NT Server and Workstation
NetWare Admin & Support
Network Associates E-Policy Orchestrator (All Versions)
Desktop Security and Administration
Citrix Metaframe
Some programming in VB6 & VB.NET

Sorry if some is repeated... Just lifted off my cv.

David

ChrisB

LOL! I can understand it when doing it on a training course, but as soon as I walk out the door....

super_si

i needa job take me on lol

P1_BEN

Have to agree I'm a Solaris, Linux person as well.... LOL at the GUI.............

David_Wallis

si, somebody gives me a job... then you can have mine... just the sort of person ive been looking for to replace me! Lol.



David

super_si

oh well just done 7 hour drinking session lol need a job lol to much money spent lol

carl

I would do a degree, in case you regret not doing so later. When you're older (possibly married + mortgage + kids), even if circumstances permit doing a degree then it's not the same as when you're in your late teens/early 20s.

munna

SI...get a job in a school!!!...not bad pay...great environment to learn...and all the holidays in the world!!...plus all the 6th formaer girls!!

snowcrash

yes - one good thing about doing a degree it is 3 years of drunkenness and dodgy nightclub encounters

although is it worth being 3 years behind the rest of the crowd?

if i had my choices again - i wouldn't have done the degree (i've been on the **** more [in the first 6 months of working] than in the total of 4years @ university) although i actually now work for said university .

super_si

cant drink ne more drank to much lol did 5pints from 7-9:30 lol go knows how many by 1 lol

Si

P1Fanatic

Its a sad state of affairs but lots of big companies do look for the initial paperwork/qua;s when checking applicants. I did a BSc (Hons) in Business Information Technology and it was a waste of time in preparing me for the real world. Everything taught is 1-2-3 years old which is ancient in IT terms. I did f*ck all work wise and still got a 2:1 so I know that its a pointless piece of paper.

Even the more well known quals in IT are dropping in standards. A CCNA means you can read and regurgitate a book without understanding the majority of the networking concepts. Even the coveted CCIE title isnt as respected as it used to be. Our in house trainer said that when he became the first Cisco Instructor outside of Cisco, that he took a 2 week course in San Jose. That same qual can now be done in a 1 day lab in the UK.

At the end of the day nothing beats hands on experience but its hard to find a company/HR bod that appreciates that fully.

Simon.

super_si

cheers for all help im just sick of sitting in lecutures all time

i like it play/experiemnt like ive done few hours ASP today and also being doing 3d Max for last 2hours i enjoy playing n seeing what happens
think networking would be ideal
Si

carl

I did Physics/Astrophysics. Surprisingly useful for IT/networking work (statistical analysis, latency and jitter, etc.)

MarkO

I did a Computer Science BSc, and whilst a lot of it was academic and irrelevant to the 'real' world, much of the theoretical stuff created a good basis to which newer technologies can be applied. For example, learning about algorithmic efficiency is not exactly new-world, but is always useful.

As for the MSCE, don't bother. I've discussed this on numerous development lists and the usual response mirrors mine: they're not worth the paper they're written on. Many courses are available guaranteeing a pass within 2 weeks (or whatever) - hardly makes it a valued qualification, does it?!

Even MS admitted a year or so ago that so many people had taken the courses that they were now devalued currency. IMO, if I had two similarly able candidates in an interview, one with an MSCE and one without, I'd pick the latter - as it shows some industry nouse (i.e., he/she didn't waste their time with a pointless course!).
[/i]

[Edited by MarkO - 6/26/2002 8:29:44 AM]

Chris_S199

I finished my BSc degree in Computer Science a year ago and got a good graduate job with IBM and I'm still there and happy. IMVHO, a degree is a must in this job market as employers want something easy they can filter their applicants on. It's the same with University applications where they just look at your A-level grades. Just the way the world is going, so the key is to have something that they'll remember you by.

I did a sandwich course at Uni (not bread-related!) which involved a paid 18 month placement in a company and this sort of experience is what employers look for. It also helped me make contacts who were very useful for my final year project.

Forget MSCE as there is an IT industry outside MS! Java certification seems to be a big push in the industry currently, but if you want to get something that's not going to go out of fashion, do some networking courses as this seems to be the future of computing...

Chris

ps We had a work experience student who was extremely keen and liked to surprise us with his enthusiasm. Somehow, he gained access to our machine room and was in the process of formatting the hard disks on our servers so he could put replace it with Windows 95 as that's what he knew! Lucky we caught him before he got a chance to do too much damage. I wonder what he's up to now...

super_si

lol thats funny 95 dark ages lol

Trumble

Have to say being on both sides of the fence looking for a job and looking for staff I would say :

Msc forget it - they're for people who couldnt make the right decision in the first place.

Bsc - in an IT subject - at 2.1 or better desireable although not essential. Dont get me wrong a 1st Bsc Hons will open doors but...

By far and away is experience - I guess starting the degree just varies the level of bottom.

I have hired people who have 1st class degrees but simply cant communicate and just do WTF they want - then have to do it again - larf !!!!!

Dont give up.

T.

carl

Explain, please? I have an MSc which I did over two years, part-time, evenings and weekends (not via the OU either) at my own expense and whilst holding down a full-time job. Whilst I don't expect it to open doors (I only did it because firstly it was interesting to me and secondly I only got a 2:2 but wanted to make sure I had the prerequisites for a PhD should I decide to do one in the future), I certainly wouldn't expect to get marked down for it.

BTW you learn Boolean algebra and binary when you do a Physics degree -- which means I can do subnetting properly

IWatkins

Look at it this way:

Person 1, straight from A Levels (18), joins company. Starts on crap wage because he knows nothing.

Person 2, goes to Uni, gets some Bsc in Software Engineering, gets out at (21), joins company. Starts on maybe higher wage/job level but knows nothing as a BSc doesn't really give you anything relevant to this (or probably any) workplace.

At the age of 30, person 1 has been with the company for 12 years and person 2 for 9 years.

If they are equally intelligent, have put in the work, been on courses etc. who do you think will be payed more/higher on the food chain ?

I bet in most companies (where people are rewarded on merit and work put in), person 1 will be higher up/better paid.

I've seen lads straight from school, fearful at first, know nothing put in the work and are now great programmers. I've seen Uni. Computer types who join and also are a bit fearful, but they *think* they know something because they have been to Uni. They are now not quite as high up or are OK programmers.

If I was hiring and firing where I work, having a degree would *not* be a requirement. If the guy can write some code, is obviously interested, has masses of initiative and is willing to dig in and have a go with anything, he will do.

I'm not saying don't get a degree. Just get working then get the degree. Open University course can get you all the nice bits of paper you want, but you won't end up with huge debts, you will still be earning/gaining experience at the same time. Oh, and if you are lucky, work will pay your fees.

Cheers

Ian

carl

Yeah, like that's the same. Their requirements for a degree are the same as anyone else's, so if a normal degree is 3/4 years and you want to complete in 6/8 years you have to be working half-time on it (i.e. around 20 hours a week). OK if you have a job with (a) short hours and (b) a short commute.

I think companies that base salaries/promotions/etc. on length of service are very short-sighted (that's why I'm freelance ). Whoever does the better job should be paid more -- don't think of a degree as training more as a general experience thing. There's stuff that I can do that isn't directly relevant to my job (fast fourier transforms anyone?) but comes in damn useful on odd occasions.

Mind you, it will all be irrelevant now we've got a changing fine structure constant

MrDeference

All this is totally irrelevant. How many of the respondees can assess, in an interview, the total quality of a candidate? If you can, come and work with me and I will make you a rich man. Sourcing the right people is the biggest problem for any organisation, so people use short cuts. Like not speaking to any candidate without a degree.

If you want to get into development at any company worth joining in a first job, a degree is a prerequisite. Otherwise you had better have a good response to the "Why did you do one year of a course on programming and then quit? Why should we want to teach you what you could have learnt on the course, and pay you at the same time?"

If you want to do SysAdmin or "Networking", then it's make your mind up time. Why? If you don't know what you are talking about as someone of graduate age(gradute or not) in that environment there are plenty of people looking for jobs that do. Sell your kick **** computer, and buy 4 old PCs. Spend day and night installing, uninstalling, configuring, networking and generally behaving like a sponge soaking up everything about computers until you can get someone to take you seriously in an interview.

Good luck.