Tim W

iTrader: (1)

I think I'm correct in saying that the VF22 was fitted to the MY98 WRX.

I hope that the SR wotsit doesn't suffer the VF22 habit for destroying compressor wheels at boost pressures greater than 1.4 bar

APS

Guys,

Just for comparison purposes, a WRX TD04 is finished at 280H.P. flywheel. The various versions of the IHI’s will make from 320-360 H.P. flywheel, depending upon the specific model.

Dave
APS

Trout...

Bias out up front - I have an HKS FMIC for which I paid the same as the APS unit. I also have an TD MD254 hybrid - which acheives 0.5bar at 2,500 and 1bar at just over 3,000rpm. (With a TMIC - i.e. before the HKS FMIC - the car produced 346bhp ATF).


But an observation that has been made before - a post goes up and the first response is a supplier saying my product is best - with a slightly overenthusiastic qualification.

When this supplier made a habit of this - I felt compelled to alert the moderator.

I think this thread demonstrates the foolhardiness of this approach by a supplier. Maybe naivety or overenthusiasm.

Of course the supplier is going wax lyrical about a product he sells - he sounds like a man with integrity who wants to help and rightly believes in a product he sells. However for the average owner who asks a question it is not an appropriate response.

An appropriate response from a supplier may well be that there are a number of products - of which these perform well - either subjective opinion or objective test. That's it - nothing more, nothing less.

Specifically in this thread - even the manufacturer is contradiciting the suppliers marketing - which is a shame as the enthusiasm has made the supplier look naive again.

Trout

Joules

Guys,

Again thanks for the support. Can I get back to the issue again.... the info is great and a little heavy for my poor head.

My set-up to recap

STiV, GEMS ECU, Grp N Exhaust, Blitz Ind Kit

I checked spool up figures posted against mine on my way home and into work and got the following -

1.0Bar at 3000 rpm
1.3Bar at 3300 rpm

The car is very responsive and pulls strong up to 6000 where it is mapped to back off. I know, I know a little conservative.

What I would ideally like is more torque coming in no later than 3000rpm. I don't want a huge peak power as on the roads I use it is less practical. My car is currently mapped mainly for mid range sacrificing some peak possibility.

From what I can see I would need a Hybrid Turbo and I am still unsure if the FMIC would increase lag significantly??

I have designed my own splitter for the TMIC but this only reduced temp whilst rolling by a steady 1.5 ~ 2 Deg C.

Any thoughts on my spool up figures.

Cheers,

Joules

Airwolf

I think you want to lay off the chap, I cannot see where his enthuiasm has made him look naive at all!!! He firmly believes in something, is this wrong?

...and where did the manufacturer contradict him? From what I see it just backs up what Jamie says, for instance, an STI UK hits 1 bar of boost at 3400-3600RPM, and guess what, so does an SR40 from what Dave APS says!!!

Trout/ Dave Rannock whatever your name is, you and many others obviously have far too much time on your hands to let this stuff bother you and should let things lie, at the end of the day, Jamie wasn't forcing anyone to do anything, so what makes you think you have the right to judge or even comment on something that has FA to do with you?

Jamie has left this thread as he works for himself and doesn't have the time and to be honest feels quite pi55ed with the way you have been, you want to try being in his shoes!

Yes, I know Jamie personally and feel the way he has handled your unfair responses shows his strength of character, rather than your 'cleverness'. Also I know how he takes it to heart so stop trying to come up with one clever answer after the other, you just look malicious and to be honest up your own ******! Trout the amount of slack you got last time for trying to cause trouble, is it really worth trying to get back into somthing which backfired on you last time?

There are many people on this board who respect Jamie's opininion, he is not trying to get in with your elite hardcore, he is however doing his best and doing a bloody good job at it at the same time!

The reason I don't post much on this bbs is because of people like you, Jamie supports Scoobynet, what exactly do you do?

I wont be responding to anyone elses smart **** comments on this thread, so go for your lives!

R19KET

Airwolf,

I'll tell you what the problem is......

Joules posted that he has an STi5. This uses a VF28, which will easily achieve 1bar of boost @ 3000rpm. He also CLEARLY SAID "I DON'T WANT TO LOSE MUCH PICKUP THOUGH".

Now, Jamie comes on, and posts that he would recommend the APS SR40, stating that it "BEHAVES LIKE STANDARD".

Taken in context, Jamie is claiming that the SR40, will spool up the same as the VF28. This is clearly INACCURATE, and MISLEADING.

Had Joules of purchased the SR40 from Jamie, he would have been VERY DISAPOINTED, given his STATED CRITERIA.

The fact that Jamie turns out to have an STi UK, which is NOTORIOUSLY LAGGY, and that the SR40 spools up comparatively the same on HIS car, is IRRELEVANT, and USELESS information to Joules.

There are some people on this bbs, that understand how different turbo's work in relationship to our engines, ECU's, mod's, and mapping. There are others who CLEARLY DON'T.

Now I'm not involved with APS at all, but even I know, that if I was suggesting one of their turbo's to suit Joules's requirements, it would be one of the SR30 range.

It's bad enough if an individual posts inaccurate, misleading information, but when a SUPPIER does it, in the process of trying to sell a product, he deserves all the flack he gets.

Mark.

Tim W

iTrader: (1)

Joules, your spool up figures look fairly normal for the stock VF28 turbo. A hybrid could be made to improve the spread of power accross the range, but at the end of the day I think you would have to accept peak torque moving up towards the 4000 rpm mark.

I did, going from a TD04 (in my case it 'was all over' at around 250hp and 260lb/ft for some reason, I know others who get nearer 300hp out of them) which was producing peak torque at about 3000 rpm to a set up that produces peak torque by 4500 rpm. I didn't find this a hardship at all, most people who have been in the car are impressed by the drivability of the set up and the way it just keeps on pulling to the red line (7000 rpm in my case).

With an Sti engined car I think you could be fairly safe taking the engine to the higher 8000 rpm red line, particularly on a lower boost of 1.25bar peak (which I run purely for safety reasons on my rattley old engine - 20k miles on these mods though!) with a good Hybrid this should give you more torque and power, but it will be moved up the rev range.

I think ideally you need experience what a car fitted with the mods your after really feels like, not easy because most cars with the set up your after are down south well for now at least...

Incidentally I had a look at the Blitz intercooler yesterday, the core has cast end cans like the HKS, it is a tube and fin construction, the overall core size similar to the HKS, but tubes (in the core) are larger and there are less off them. The connecting pipe work is natural stainless steel (would need a polish) which looks better to some people than the powder coated steel pipes of the HKS. Price wise it's a little cheaper than the HKS too...really a case of personal preference...

Trout...

Mmmmm - wonders who Airwolf is - he seems to clearly know who I am - which indicates more than just a passing interest in this board. I love these anonymous newbies with three posts to their name who clearly aren't anonymous at all - merely hiding behind a mask. Oh, and by the way Rannoch is spelt with an 'h', and it is David, not Dave as you suggest.

As for my posts 'backfiring' - I had a large number of emails thanking me for my helpful comments for people tuning their cars or fixing problems they have had. Over the years I have made over 2000 posts here - mostly in Drivetrain - mostly to get help or share ideas and suggestions with others. My technical knowledge is far from perfect - but that is what this board should be about - learning together. If only we knew who you were we could see what contribution you have made to this board....

I do wonder however, how my post is in anyway undermining Jamie - I am trying to suggest in a even way how Jamie might temper his enthusiasm - and get more attention and credibility in the interim.

In terms of your technical point - I can in no way see or remotely understand your comment about how an STi UK can be used as a reference point for setting up an STi V. They are very different cars in set-up and operation.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++

Joules.

one thing to consider in all of this - especially in setting up your car with a new turbo - is that this can be very sensitive to the downpipe that you select. When I changed from a BPM twin-dump to a custom 3in Scoobysport - my spool-up came around 600-800rpm earlier depending on the mapping set-up. For on road driving this is excellent. However even tho' it makes 1bar around 3000rpm, peak torque is still around 3,900-4,000rpm - that is with the MD254 which is a particularly responsive - 'large turbo'.

In terms of on road behaviour - the car is much stronger low down than a standard Sti V - but that is due in the main to the de-cat.

However before I suggest that the 3in SS is the bees knees - there is a cost - it is around 6db louder than the BPM and experience elsewhere suggests that at the very top end - with big boost - it is a little more restrictive.

The point being - carefully consider your choice of turbo - but also think about related elements - they all combine to acheive what you want and there is no perfect product - merely a combination of compromises that suits you. Speak to a number of tuners who understand this and make your choice as to who has the most references from satisfied customers who you feel will meet your needs.

Finally - until very recently I only ran with a TMIC and have a number of RR runs with around 340-345bhp. For the road it was perfect - however I was persuaded to go FMIC for track driving - to maintain lower temps over a longer period.

IMHO - and my car is an STi V too - I would explore the turbo option first - and perhaps consider water injection. Only going to FMIC if you cannot control your inlet temps/resulting detonation.

Trout

Mr J

Hm...I can just say if I were to chose from a suppliers advice or a person with a lot of experience in scoobs with no economic interest.

I would take the advice from ex Mark,Adam,Tim W, Trout, John Banks etc anyday !!!

As we do not have much of experience in moding Scoobs here in Sweden, I have talked to a lot of nice guys asking for advice around the world.

And it have probably saved me some Ł..but also got me to invest more Ł in my scoob but

But without there advice it had cost me a fortune !!
I also have received some tips from suppliers that have saved me Ł
but..there have not been many that have been that honest

Just my 2c

/Kvarnis

deleted some not very helpful comments!


[Edited by johnfelstead - 7/18/2002 12:18:40 PM]

johnfelstead

OK guys, cut out the comercial advice etc and lets get back to discussing the facts/technical aspects of the question. I dont want to lock this thread but unless the technical aspects only are discussed in future i will have no choice but to do so!

Adam M

I am wondering if joules shouldnt stick with a similar sized turbo or even the stock one he has now.

The way to achieve low down torque is low temp boost.

there are hybrids which are small with a small exhaust housing for spool up but can still flow fairly well at the top end such asd tims.

Would it not be worth you havign a remap to run say 1.4 bar but only at the bottom?

If mapped well you would get the same spool up as the turbo is the same and the low level boost will not change so long as they dont adjust the low level fuelling. In short it will come in the same way but produce more torque due to the higher boost.

I suppose it just comes down to whether you have the ***** to run the boost at the bottom end.

I must admit, I would sill be inclined to ask mark about getting a hybrid, purely because the higher boost levels is not something I would be comfortable with on a vf28.

CraigH

Airwolf,

Nothing like an ubiased view is there?

Jamie,

Maybe it would be better to personally mail potential customers rather than using the board? Just an observation

TimW,

I would say that arguably, my car with the APS FMIC had the most extreme use - due to state of tune and trackday useage etc. Not saying my car was best, just that I haven't seen the other cars have as much track time as I did - if any at all.
In this time, the only problem was one of the pipes blew off. The pipework didn't perish, collapse or anything. In fact when it was sold, it cleaned up to virtually as new. I can't compare it to the HKS as I didn't own one - but in my own experience I was very happy with the FMIC and HFA. All I can assume is that some were not fitted correctly or the cars haven't been looked after?

Joules,

Coming from a car that had 1 bar of boost at 4k, if the car is mainly for road use I would strongly advise you think long and hard about the turbo. Ultimate power is great, especially when on track, but for road use it's an almighty pain in the 4ss.
Speak to owners who have had the different flavours of FMIC and not manufacturers. I would imagine if HKS came on the board they would have a similar convincing argument
If I was going to do what I did again, I would probably try one of their turbos - but if you are considering those, bear in mind that AVO Australia also supply bolt on Garret turbos for Scoobs in various incarnations......

nom

One thing I am pretty sure about - as Trout says, there's no need to go for a FMIC at this point. For 'value', it's try getting as much out of the current set-up with (possibly loony) mapping as Adam thinks, if not good enough then chuck on a not-very-big hybrid - which should reduce charge temperatures anyway if used as you say - but if they are high for some reason, either go for a front-mount or uprated TMIC.
One thing against the FMIC if a large turbo isn't used is I'd have thought it would then produce noticeable lag 'cos the ickle turbo (for low-down use) can't produce the flow to fill the extra tubing. As someone, somewhere, pointed out, the TMIC isn't actually that bad, as long as track performance isn't too important.
All just IMHO of course

Adam M

agree with nom,

stick with tmic for now.

go for a funky but small (say vf 28) based hybrid. with a modified wastegate P18 housing for spool up.

In fact ignore me, ring R19KET and ask him personally, he has more experience with these things than anyone else.

R19KET

Joules,

Firstly, can you post your dyno graph, so we can see exactly what you're currently achieving. Peak figures really don't show the whole picture.

I would also speak to Steve Simpson (?) about a re-mapping the Gems, to achieve more power in the areas that you think are lacking, but, I suspect you will be limited with your current turbo. 300ftlbs @ 3400rpm, is pretty impressive from a VF28, and I doubt the is much more to come.

IMO, the only way you are going to get more torque low down, is to either run more boost, or find a turbo that can spool up earlier. This may, or may not compromise your top end power though.

The SR30 series may be a good option, but I have no experience of it, and IIRC, won't be available for a while. I'm sure Jamie could give more up to date info though.

Mark.

Trout...

Just another comment about sticking with a TMIC - getting 346bhp (Bob Rawle got a similar figure - also with a TMIC) remember that on the RR especially - a TMIC is critically compromised and power will almost certainly be down.

The other aspect - seat of the pants I am sure - is that there are other cars around with more power and more torque - who use bigger turbos - but they consistently praised the on road behaviour of my car - especially it's apparent torquey nature - even tho they may have had more absolute torque.

This is not because I am big, or clever - just got lucky I guess

But I would consider focusing on the turbo and mapping - as with an FMIC my car is not quite as sharp as it was before and at the moment I am losing boost - no doubt due to a loose connector and my crap fitting!

Trout

PS Airwolf - I know people who enthusiastically beleive in God but they can't make my car go faster either

[Edited by Trout - 7/18/2002 2:53:00 PM]

APS

Guys,

Just a couple of explanatory points:

1. The VF22 (The largest of the IHI ball bearing STI units), was actually originally fitted to versions 1 / 2. Sorry.

2. Our SR series units are durable to continuous 2.5 BAR positive, so long as the massflow limits are not exceeded.

3. Adam – specifically

3.1. I did not say the SR30 spools as fast as a TD04. I said as fast as a TD05. (Please re-read my post). While I am not inclined to waste time arguing, the balance of your first paragraph is meaningless.

3.2. Where did you get VF22/450H.P.? The absolute maximum a VF22 will support, immediately prior to compressor wheel explosion, is 360H.P. I was just providing a low spool comparison.

3.3. I specifically provided the intercooler data in as simple a format as possible. I deliberately specified the massflow, IE. 320 H.P. This immediately states the work the compressor is doing. It is supplying 32 lbs/min of air. By direct implication, it must be at max pressure ratio, for that particular application. (Approximately 1.0 BAR).

Dave
APS

MorayMackenzie

APS,

Re: "1. The VF22 (The largest of the IHI ball bearing STI units), was actually originally fitted to versions 1 / 2. Sorry."

The STI version 1 and 2 were both based on the older style engine which exhibited individual coil-over-plug ignition and a completely different induction system layout. The induction system layout on these cars was not compatible with the IHI VF series turbocharger units. IIRC, they actually ran Mitsubishi TD series sleeve bearing turbochargers. The STI 3 was the first of the STI cars to run the later style induction layout and also the first to run an IHI VF series turbocharger, which was the VF23.

I am suprised that someone posting technical statements on behalf of APS would not have known this.

Moray
bbs.22b.com

Adam M

APS - specifically.

I wrote what I wrote because Jamie (your representative in the UK)wrote this:

"The SR40 behaves like standard but is good for upto 450BHP aplications".

Not because you mentioned the TD04 or TD05.

In fact I didnt mention these turbos at all with reference to what jamie considered to eb a standard turbo because I noted that jules runs an sti 5 which runs a vf28 as standard although I am sure you knew that.

Either way it doesnt matter. my objection was to what jamie wrote. No standard turbo available with any standard impreza can flow 450bhp, regardless of spool up ability, inlcuding the VF22 and TD05, the biggest the impreza came with.

So what i said stands, looking at spooling up, taking the worst case scenario of the VF22 or TD05, you will never get a turbo to exhibit those characteristics and go on to flow 450bhp (unless it has variable geometry of course, which yours doesn't!).


please dont take this as a slanging match. I am a big fan of your products, and very nearly bought an sr turbo (ask trey cobb). I also run your cold air induction kit, and had it not been for unfortunate supply problem at the time would also have one of your intercoolers (although I was put off at the prospect of running 2.5 bar of pressure through silicone hoses).

APS

Moray,

Sorry again. You are correct. My original statement was the correct one, simply not expansive enough. The VF22 was used on the version 3, RA variants, homologated for motor sport.

Adam,

Since you appeared to be addressing my post, I thought you were responding to my comments. Sorry. However, I believe you are still somewhat off the mark. Our SR40 feels exactly like a VF22 at low RPM (which is what I said), however, has sufficient massflow for 450 H.P. flywheel, maximum. It will, in fact, make around this number, (when matched with appropriate external components), on an internally standard version 7, at 21psi boost.

Dave
APS

Trout...

Dave,

so you are saying that with standard internals - you can get 450bhp by the application of a certain turbo?

What are the appropriate external components - this is very interesting - one imagines

fuelling
Injectors
FMIC
Induction
ECU - which one?

Anything else? Do you have dyno grpahs you can post for a Scoob?

Trout

[Edited by Trout - 7/20/2002 8:53:06 AM]

Plantie

I'd love to see 450bhp on standard internals!!!!

Doubt it though... someones living in their own little fantasy world!

Pavlo

Mr APS,

That doesn't seem like very much, care to elaborate?

Paul

R19KET

Paul,

360bhp on a VF22 doesn't seem very much......

Are you kidding....

Personally, I think 360bhp out of a VF22 is somewhat optomistic.

Mark.

Pavlo

Okay, I thought the VF22 was the biggest of the lot. But I think now what people mean is it has the most lag for the boost it gives.

Paul

dingy

I would love to see 360 on standard internal's plantie....

Melt bend bang



Fitted several differnent FMIC's, tested a few.

Behr still make the best IC in the world

APS

Guys,

Did you all miss my “version 7” (ie current STI) comment, in relation to the 450 H.P. number, or am I misreading your posts? I was certainly not talking about a WRX!!

RE the VF22, yes it has the largest VF series compressor and yes, 360 H.P. is right at its optimistic ragged edge. I most certainly was not claiming it is durable at that. Merely that it would make it. After all, I did say, “immediately prior to compressor wheel explosion”!!

Dave
APS

R19KET

Dave,

"has sufficient massflow for 450 H.P. flywheel, maximum. It will, in fact, make around this number, (when matched with appropriate external components), on an internally standard version 7, at 21psi boost."

Please could you post a dyno graph, of an STi7, that you achieved this on, and the list of mod's required.

Mark.

Adam M

APS,

hang on,

are you saying that the standard internals of the sti are strong enough to handle 100bhp more than the sti 6 and earlier?

I would also like to see the dyno results that prove this!

and what exactly is the difference between it "feeling like" it spools like a VF22 and it actually spooling like a VF22?

[Edited by Adam M - 7/22/2002 10:58:59 AM]

CraigH

I would be interested to see this as well.

If this is the case, I'd assume it would be very unreliable, due to the significantly lower power produced by your STI 7 kits.

Is this 450hp meant as an absolute maximum, prior to destruction?

An as it has the SR40 turbo, can we assume even with 450hp it will drive much like a std car with a VF22?