WELL DONE BMW.................a lesson to Subaru!
07 June 2001, 02:20 PM
#31
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Fat Boy:
<B>Both great in different ways (by the way bmw £42k, P1£31.5k), but don't compare apples and pears.
[/quote]
Erm.... M3 £38k, P1 WR £37.5k (and still no-where near the spec of the M3).
To spec a P1 to the level of a base M3 would cost over £40k
You are right - don't compare apples and pears 
<B>Both great in different ways (by the way bmw £42k, P1£31.5k), but don't compare apples and pears.
[/quote]
Erm.... M3 £38k, P1 WR £37.5k (and still no-where near the spec of the M3).
To spec a P1 to the level of a base M3 would cost over £40k
You are right - don't compare apples and pears
07 June 2001, 02:43 PM
#32
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 7,957
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is pathetic!
They are different cars aime at different markets.
Arron, when you bought the P1 it was the best thing since sliced bread, you opinion of it has changed due to bad experience.
How do you know the BMW wont end up the same way?
I also dont understand if we are such sad *******s, why do you keep leaving us and then coming back? you clearly dont feel welcome, so why not just stay away?
But then announcing your return with bmw rocks subaru is crap, you are bound to ghet such responses. this post would have been better suited on the evo bbs perhaps where both cars have a following.
I personally think the M3 looks lovely, (not in black) and although I havent driven one would love to give it a go.
But then I will walk into my BMW dealer in jeans and a t shirt and I am sure he will say,
"it's terribly expensive sir, perhaps you should look at something a little closer to home?"
all I can say in return, is who the hell gets dressed up to test drive a car on their day off?
That is what I hate about BMWs, and you wont be able to change that.
There are other stupid points about BMW ownership. Everyone else has got one. They will be everywhere. I see bmw coupes all the time, and I guarantee once the M3 is out I will see these too. It makes for a much less interesting purchase if you see yourself at every junction.
Plus the biggest point to me is upgradability?
How many people will be fitting new exhaust manifolds, water injection, lambda and knocklinks, hybrid turbos, fmics, uprated suspension etc.
No one. You buy the M3 you leave it alone. Perhaps because it can't really be improved upon. Either way, it removes much of the fun, and gives a community such as this (which doesnt exist for bmws) a lot less to talk about.
It is a great car arron, for you, so stop whinging about it, and wait in silence.
They are different cars aime at different markets.
Arron, when you bought the P1 it was the best thing since sliced bread, you opinion of it has changed due to bad experience.
How do you know the BMW wont end up the same way?
I also dont understand if we are such sad *******s, why do you keep leaving us and then coming back? you clearly dont feel welcome, so why not just stay away?
But then announcing your return with bmw rocks subaru is crap, you are bound to ghet such responses. this post would have been better suited on the evo bbs perhaps where both cars have a following.
I personally think the M3 looks lovely, (not in black) and although I havent driven one would love to give it a go.
But then I will walk into my BMW dealer in jeans and a t shirt and I am sure he will say,
"it's terribly expensive sir, perhaps you should look at something a little closer to home?"
all I can say in return, is who the hell gets dressed up to test drive a car on their day off?
That is what I hate about BMWs, and you wont be able to change that.
There are other stupid points about BMW ownership. Everyone else has got one. They will be everywhere. I see bmw coupes all the time, and I guarantee once the M3 is out I will see these too. It makes for a much less interesting purchase if you see yourself at every junction.
Plus the biggest point to me is upgradability?
How many people will be fitting new exhaust manifolds, water injection, lambda and knocklinks, hybrid turbos, fmics, uprated suspension etc.
No one. You buy the M3 you leave it alone. Perhaps because it can't really be improved upon. Either way, it removes much of the fun, and gives a community such as this (which doesnt exist for bmws) a lot less to talk about.
It is a great car arron, for you, so stop whinging about it, and wait in silence.
07 June 2001, 02:54 PM
#35
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
'****** and stones may break bones but I laugh when I'm in my M3'...... the P1 is not a patch on a new M3, and as GaryC said, to bring a P1 up to spec with a standard M3 would cost close to £40K, I know this because I spent enough on my P1 when I had it.
Also why is it that an 11 year old E30 M3 EVO Sport still costs as much as some 2-3 year old Imprezas, answer is quality and the driving experience......
Adam M, you want upgradability, then go and speak to Birds, how about a 460 BHP V8 M3, if that's not upgradability I don't know what is!!
[This message has been edited by Andrew O'Hara (edited 07 June 2001).]
Also why is it that an 11 year old E30 M3 EVO Sport still costs as much as some 2-3 year old Imprezas, answer is quality and the driving experience......
Adam M, you want upgradability, then go and speak to Birds, how about a 460 BHP V8 M3, if that's not upgradability I don't know what is!!
[This message has been edited by Andrew O'Hara (edited 07 June 2001).]
07 June 2001, 03:03 PM
#36
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Built by germans, driven by tossers 99% of the time. Dont forget the mechanics drive em about 1%
Well said Adam. I totally agree.
Aaron, please just go away. If you are as **** as you seem, you need to sell the car and buy something more suited, early Lada, or reliant. Then you really will have something to moan about, and your life will be complete. The money you save will fund your stamps for your letters to watchdog.
"Also why is it that an 11 year old E30 M3 EVO Sport still costs as much as some 2-3 year old Imprezas, answer is quality and the driving experience...... " so using your logic, the best driving experience on the road would more than likely be an early RS Turbo, Uno Turbo, Sierra Saphire cossy, as all of these have been going up in value lately. Supply and Demand... wassat then?
robski
Well said Adam. I totally agree.
Aaron, please just go away. If you are as **** as you seem, you need to sell the car and buy something more suited, early Lada, or reliant. Then you really will have something to moan about, and your life will be complete. The money you save will fund your stamps for your letters to watchdog.
"Also why is it that an 11 year old E30 M3 EVO Sport still costs as much as some 2-3 year old Imprezas, answer is quality and the driving experience...... " so using your logic, the best driving experience on the road would more than likely be an early RS Turbo, Uno Turbo, Sierra Saphire cossy, as all of these have been going up in value lately. Supply and Demand... wassat then?
robski
07 June 2001, 03:10 PM
#37
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 13,735
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Adam M:
<B>when you bought the P1 it was the best thing since sliced bread[/quote]
...and all the car mags agreed.
Now the M3 is out, they love that.
Cars as a fashion accessory? I wish I had that sort of money.
Edit: sorry, that sounds like jealousy. It isn't. Good luck to those who can afford to do it - it is called "hard-earned" after all! Just don't come back, call us sad, start an argument and expect us to worship you.
[This message has been edited by chiark (edited 07 June 2001).]
<B>when you bought the P1 it was the best thing since sliced bread[/quote]
...and all the car mags agreed.
Now the M3 is out, they love that.
Cars as a fashion accessory? I wish I had that sort of money.
Edit: sorry, that sounds like jealousy. It isn't. Good luck to those who can afford to do it - it is called "hard-earned" after all! Just don't come back, call us sad, start an argument and expect us to worship you.
[This message has been edited by chiark (edited 07 June 2001).]
07 June 2001, 03:16 PM
#38
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 3,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Adam,
what stops you, say, for instance, of the top of my head, putting an M5 engine into an M3 body? now that would be an upgrade... only disadvantages might be slightly less fuel economy and a possible change in weight distribution... which could be addressed, at least in part, in suspension tuning.
It's fairly straightforward to put a e34 3.8l m5 or e36 3.2l double vanos(sp) engine into an e30 m3...
robski,
The e30 m3 is a fantastic driving expirience... the evo sport would be even better... there were only, IIRC, 600 evo sports ever made... no wonder there is such high demand for them.
I am getting to like my m3 better every time i drive it... it is a real racecar for the road... my scooby is a fairly convincing rallycar for the road... they are not really comparible as race and rally are two very different beasts with different requirements.
Moray
[This message has been edited by MorayMackenzie (edited 07 June 2001).]
what stops you, say, for instance, of the top of my head, putting an M5 engine into an M3 body? now that would be an upgrade... only disadvantages might be slightly less fuel economy and a possible change in weight distribution... which could be addressed, at least in part, in suspension tuning.
It's fairly straightforward to put a e34 3.8l m5 or e36 3.2l double vanos(sp) engine into an e30 m3...
robski,
The e30 m3 is a fantastic driving expirience... the evo sport would be even better... there were only, IIRC, 600 evo sports ever made... no wonder there is such high demand for them.
I am getting to like my m3 better every time i drive it... it is a real racecar for the road... my scooby is a fairly convincing rallycar for the road... they are not really comparible as race and rally are two very different beasts with different requirements.
Moray
[This message has been edited by MorayMackenzie (edited 07 June 2001).]
07 June 2001, 03:37 PM
#40
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Moray,
hence my comment "Supply and Demand... wassat then?"
i.e. I was saying, little supply = big demand
big supply = little demand
obviously other factors as well, but it never goes away.
subarus are not in short supply now, when they were they didnt loose much money year after year.
I thought stuff like putting the M5 engine in an M3 chassis tye of stuff was the bread and butter of the tuners who specialised in BMW tuning work? So as Adam says, there isnt any tinkering to do is there!
BMW themselves have stated that the M3 is at the absolute limit of the engine. IMHO thats gonna make it a tad fragile, maybe I will be proved wrong, but if its 100% safe, then I dont believe that for a production engine (albeit a top spec one) its gonna be at 100% of its potential.
If it was that easy to get 100% of potential reliably why do soooooo many F1 failures occur!? (including BMW!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
robski
hence my comment "Supply and Demand... wassat then?"
i.e. I was saying, little supply = big demand
big supply = little demand
obviously other factors as well, but it never goes away.
subarus are not in short supply now, when they were they didnt loose much money year after year.
I thought stuff like putting the M5 engine in an M3 chassis tye of stuff was the bread and butter of the tuners who specialised in BMW tuning work? So as Adam says, there isnt any tinkering to do is there!
BMW themselves have stated that the M3 is at the absolute limit of the engine. IMHO thats gonna make it a tad fragile, maybe I will be proved wrong, but if its 100% safe, then I dont believe that for a production engine (albeit a top spec one) its gonna be at 100% of its potential.
If it was that easy to get 100% of potential reliably why do soooooo many F1 failures occur!? (including BMW!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
robski
07 June 2001, 03:47 PM
#41
Scooby Regular
Join Date: May 2000
Location: MY00,MY01,RX-8, Alfa 147 & Focus ST :-)
Posts: 10,371
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One other thing to consider Aaron (and I do think the M3 is a fab car, although just too similar to a 330C to really stand out) - In the recent list of warranty claims (measured as the number of cars per hundred made of each model that required a warranty claim), Subaru came joint 11th with Ford and........you guessed it, BMW!!
Chris
Chris
07 June 2001, 04:15 PM
#42
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are two issues here, P1 vs M3, and Scooby vs M3.
Some reality first. The P1 was overpriced (especially in WR form), and what originally seemed like a sure-fire winner in terms of power, exclusivity, and quality has fallen some way short of the mark. Yes, it’s stunningly fast and for some this alone will be enough, but others (such as myself) would want something a bit more special for £40k, which is what it would cost to get you one to anywhere near the spec of the M3.
Given that the cars are similar in price, try this little test on yourself. Imagine two sets of keys on the table, one for a P1, one for an M3. You can have either one, but you’ve got to put up with your choice, foibles and all, for three years and 60k miles. You’ve got to get to work, carry the kids around, but also want to do a couple of track days a year. Now look at the costs. Ignore petrol/servicing/insurance/tyres (which will be broadly similar in cost) the biggest difference will be depreciation – you’ll probably be £6-8k better off over the period in the M3. Now try telling yourself that you’d choose the P1. Me, I’d choose the M3 in the blink of an eye.
A far more difficult choice would be MY01 vs M3; sure the M3 is a bit quicker (marginally) and better built (lots), but then it costs DOUBLE the price of an MY01. I’d agree that it looks way better, but is it really worth the difference? I’d take the MY01 (a Dutch import, for preference) rather than the M3 and buy a Caterham AND have a couple of skiing holidays with the difference.
Bros
Some reality first. The P1 was overpriced (especially in WR form), and what originally seemed like a sure-fire winner in terms of power, exclusivity, and quality has fallen some way short of the mark. Yes, it’s stunningly fast and for some this alone will be enough, but others (such as myself) would want something a bit more special for £40k, which is what it would cost to get you one to anywhere near the spec of the M3.
Given that the cars are similar in price, try this little test on yourself. Imagine two sets of keys on the table, one for a P1, one for an M3. You can have either one, but you’ve got to put up with your choice, foibles and all, for three years and 60k miles. You’ve got to get to work, carry the kids around, but also want to do a couple of track days a year. Now look at the costs. Ignore petrol/servicing/insurance/tyres (which will be broadly similar in cost) the biggest difference will be depreciation – you’ll probably be £6-8k better off over the period in the M3. Now try telling yourself that you’d choose the P1. Me, I’d choose the M3 in the blink of an eye.
A far more difficult choice would be MY01 vs M3; sure the M3 is a bit quicker (marginally) and better built (lots), but then it costs DOUBLE the price of an MY01. I’d agree that it looks way better, but is it really worth the difference? I’d take the MY01 (a Dutch import, for preference) rather than the M3 and buy a Caterham AND have a couple of skiing holidays with the difference.
Bros
07 June 2001, 05:18 PM
#43
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 311
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm bored of this type of post; everyone has their own priorities (and wallets!!) when buying a car - aimless rantings like this prove nothing. I'm happy with mine and that's all I care about
Richard
Richard
07 June 2001, 06:04 PM
#45
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Robski,
You try reving an engine at 18,000 rpm for two hours at a time and it will soon go bang.
For CHRIST'S SAKE we are comparing road cars here not F1 cars and engines that rev to 18,000 rpm
If you revved your car, whatever it may be, at the maximum rpm for two hours, it wont do it any good at all. F1 engines and all race car engines for that matter are designed to last for a short period of time before they need rebuilding, this is not a characteristic of a road car engine.
BMW state that figure as that is what is safe to use for the longevity of the car and reliability, surely that is what people want and not having to have it rebuilt every year
You try reving an engine at 18,000 rpm for two hours at a time and it will soon go bang.
For CHRIST'S SAKE we are comparing road cars here not F1 cars and engines that rev to 18,000 rpm
If you revved your car, whatever it may be, at the maximum rpm for two hours, it wont do it any good at all. F1 engines and all race car engines for that matter are designed to last for a short period of time before they need rebuilding, this is not a characteristic of a road car engine.
BMW state that figure as that is what is safe to use for the longevity of the car and reliability, surely that is what people want and not having to have it rebuilt every year
07 June 2001, 06:05 PM
#46
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,223
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andrew
You may slate me for saying what I think. I still do think it was hard to realise in black that it was an M3 looking straight at the front. Certain colours show the flared arches better than others. I found exactly the same with my two S3's.
Whilst I also agree the P1 was only available in one colour, I dont think its out of order to request other colours from BMW. The old M3 had the Estoril Blue, which you could get on a std 3 series. In the UK you couldnt order a four door Turbo in Sonic either. LSB is a crap colour IMHO and I would like to see some better colours full stop.
I'm hardly one slating the car, as I am due to spec mine up in the next 6-8 weeks. I am finding it hard to choose a colour for it.
Jonathan
You may slate me for saying what I think. I still do think it was hard to realise in black that it was an M3 looking straight at the front. Certain colours show the flared arches better than others. I found exactly the same with my two S3's.
Whilst I also agree the P1 was only available in one colour, I dont think its out of order to request other colours from BMW. The old M3 had the Estoril Blue, which you could get on a std 3 series. In the UK you couldnt order a four door Turbo in Sonic either. LSB is a crap colour IMHO and I would like to see some better colours full stop.
I'm hardly one slating the car, as I am due to spec mine up in the next 6-8 weeks. I am finding it hard to choose a colour for it.
Jonathan
07 June 2001, 06:28 PM
#47
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chins,
Sorry if I offended you mate, btw Estroil blue was specific only to M cars.
Guys,
At the end of the day it's each to their own and I prefer the M3, that's why I've had 2 before, still own one now and new one coming in April 2002.
[This message has been edited by Andrew O'Hara (edited 07 June 2001).]
Sorry if I offended you mate, btw Estroil blue was specific only to M cars.
Guys,
At the end of the day it's each to their own and I prefer the M3, that's why I've had 2 before, still own one now and new one coming in April 2002.
[This message has been edited by Andrew O'Hara (edited 07 June 2001).]
07 June 2001, 08:16 PM
#48
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: In wrxshire
Posts: 6,725
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The only BMW I would consider is a 330D and only then if big mileage was an issue. The M3 maybe a good car but value for money , for 40K I would look for a second hand LHD 355 . Now which keys would you pick up off the table
My scooby does exactly what I need it to, big boot, carry 5 people, is very quick, looks and sounds great and mine cost a lot less than an M3 (yes I drive a Jap 280 PS WRX ). I will put up with its downsides because I drive what I want. If you want to try something else then thats your choice and your loss IMHO.
cheers
chrisp
[This message has been edited by chrisp (edited 07 June 2001).]
, for 40K I would look for a second hand LHD 355 . Now which keys would you pick up off the table My scooby does exactly what I need it to, big boot, carry 5 people, is very quick, looks and sounds great and mine cost a lot less than an M3 (yes I drive a Jap 280 PS WRX
). I will put up with its downsides because I drive what I want. If you want to try something else then thats your choice and your loss IMHO.cheers
chrisp
[This message has been edited by chrisp (edited 07 June 2001).]
07 June 2001, 08:23 PM
#49
Scooby Senior
Join Date: Jun 1999
Posts: 3,410
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
robski,
I hoped that was what you were meaning. I was just worried when you included the rs turbo (ford's spectacularly unsucessful rally car attempt) and uno turbo ( this space intentionally left blank ) in the same argument.
Alpina, and other companies, do shoehorn engines into smaller bm's than they were originally intended for... but there really isn't much to stop anyone doing that for themselves... plenty to tinker with and then pretty much factory reliability to look forward to... bmw factory reliability, that is. When I have finished my scooby project, I may well try the shoehorn process myself...
Oh, and Adam doesn't tinker with cars... he has other persons to do that for him... after all, why get your hands dirty if you don't have to?
Moray
I hoped that was what you were meaning.
I was just worried when you included the rs turbo (ford's spectacularly unsucessful rally car attempt) and uno turbo ( this space intentionally left blank ) in the same argument. Alpina, and other companies, do shoehorn engines into smaller bm's than they were originally intended for... but there really isn't much to stop anyone doing that for themselves... plenty to tinker with and then pretty much factory reliability to look forward to... bmw factory reliability, that is.
When I have finished my scooby project, I may well try the shoehorn process myself... Oh, and Adam doesn't tinker with cars... he has other persons to do that for him... after all, why get your hands dirty if you don't have to?
Moray
08 June 2001, 12:05 AM
#51
Scooby Regular
It seems like some newbies were the ones that slammed Arron's remarks. Just went on to strengthen Arron's case that the BBS was going downhill
Personally, theres times when it waivers (and I've thought about chucking it), but I think it's still the best out there. There are a few to$$ers about, but you get that everywhere and no doubt others have probably thought the same about me
You can compare the P1 and M3 on performance, but when it comes to quality and VFM I think the M3 wins hands down. Remember Arron had a nightmare with his P1 and if I had just shelled on £30K I'd be pretty pi$$ed too.
Some people just like to irritate and poke others, but someday they'll grow out of it.
Stefan
Personally, theres times when it waivers (and I've thought about chucking it), but I think it's still the best out there. There are a few to$$ers about, but you get that everywhere and no doubt others have probably thought the same about me
You can compare the P1 and M3 on performance, but when it comes to quality and VFM I think the M3 wins hands down. Remember Arron had a nightmare with his P1 and if I had just shelled on £30K I'd be pretty pi$$ed too.
Some people just like to irritate and poke others, but someday they'll grow out of it.
Stefan
08 June 2001, 08:37 AM
#52
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by chrisp:
<B>The only BMW I would consider is a 330D [/quote]
My kinda guy
The F1 thing - don't forget F1 engines are close to 300hp per litre the M3 is barely 100hp per litre, as is regarded as one of THE best engines in the world. All BMWs other failings (or lack of them) aside, their engines are about the best in the world
<B>The only BMW I would consider is a 330D [/quote]
My kinda guy
The F1 thing - don't forget F1 engines are close to 300hp per litre the M3 is barely 100hp per litre, as is regarded as one of THE best engines in the world. All BMWs other failings (or lack of them) aside, their engines are about the best in the world
08 June 2001, 03:55 PM
#54
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Aug 1999
Posts: 1,947
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Andrew,
my point was that if its that easy to get to the maximum safe stage of engine development, and have it on the limit, then it shouldnt be hard to do. 18000 RPM is just a limitation, 100% reliable at 18000 RPM for 2 hours if thats what you want, but it wint be as powerful. Anyway F1 engines dont sit at 18000 ROM for 2 hours, its closer to 1.5 hours.
Moray tis true though, I was just disproving the rather simplistic statement that it was the car itself ignoring the exclusivity and other factors that was affecting the depreciation.
I dont think anyone has said that the M3 is a ****e car, I would be tempted myself if I had that sort of money to spend, but I can say Im more likely to source a good 22B than an M3, its a sure fire way to minimise your depreciation.
Id like to see how low M3 depreciation will be guaranteed. If people start parallel importing with the associated savings then UK sourced are going to be just as impcated as scoobs have been (in a few years when more are available), and thats the key, availability, ooo supply and demand again.
Just look at the TTs, 2 year waiting list disappeared within months, when all the specualators who thought they were going to make some easy profit pulled out.
Actually, I bet there is a hig correlation between the kid who always had to have the latest toy at christmas, and the sort of people who order cars such as P1s without driving them.
Was the P1 a classic absolutely, was it overpriced, yep most people think so.
Is the new M3 destined to be a classic, im sure, it is overpriced, probably not, as more people are willing to pay for the BMW badge.
Still everyone to their own, some people choose to buy fords, lol!
robski
my point was that if its that easy to get to the maximum safe stage of engine development, and have it on the limit, then it shouldnt be hard to do. 18000 RPM is just a limitation, 100% reliable at 18000 RPM for 2 hours if thats what you want, but it wint be as powerful. Anyway F1 engines dont sit at 18000 ROM for 2 hours, its closer to 1.5 hours.
Moray
tis true though, I was just disproving the rather simplistic statement that it was the car itself ignoring the exclusivity and other factors that was affecting the depreciation.I dont think anyone has said that the M3 is a ****e car, I would be tempted myself if I had that sort of money to spend, but I can say Im more likely to source a good 22B than an M3, its a sure fire way to minimise your depreciation.
Id like to see how low M3 depreciation will be guaranteed. If people start parallel importing with the associated savings then UK sourced are going to be just as impcated as scoobs have been (in a few years when more are available), and thats the key, availability, ooo supply and demand again.
Just look at the TTs, 2 year waiting list disappeared within months, when all the specualators who thought they were going to make some easy profit pulled out.
Actually, I bet there is a hig correlation between the kid who always had to have the latest toy at christmas, and the sort of people who order cars such as P1s without driving them.
Was the P1 a classic absolutely, was it overpriced, yep most people think so.
Is the new M3 destined to be a classic, im sure, it is overpriced, probably not, as more people are willing to pay for the BMW badge.
Still everyone to their own, some people choose to buy fords, lol!
robski
08 June 2001, 05:00 PM
#56
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 147
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For what it's worth here's my own take on the M3 debate...
Until recently I was going to buy either a MY01 WRX Sportwagen or a BMW 330dse Touring to replace my company car (Golf GTi Turbo-pants!).
However having driven both cars extensively and carefully looked into the sourcing and purchase options for both I didn't feel COMPELLED to buy either. That's not to say that they are not great cars in their own way but they didn't inspire L-U-S-T. Whilst I ideally wanted a "lifestlye" estate I was prepared to look at other options if they existed. Jonathan (Chins) suggested a P1 and it's a great car, but not what I really wanted and I don't want to get into the huge P1 debate. Therefore I decided to test drive the M3 at my local BMW ****, sorry, Dealer. The dealer was pretty poor, at best, but the car is a blast. It's worth £40k and I also feel that over the short to medium term, a good investment/buy. I'm by no means a rich man but just one whose sick of crap company cars and therefore I'm opting out of that lottery and getting something I actually really want and desire. The 'BMW image thing'is something I can do nothing about but then I'll worry about that when the M3 SMG arrives in May 2002...Incidentally don't believe the 18 month/2 year waiting lists. Phone a few dealers (especially those in the 'sticks')and you may be surprised with a 12 month wait, as I am.....wish I knew how I was going to pay for the M3 though!!!.
At the end of the day I would say to anyone whose intrigued by the M3, DRIVE IT and then post your views for everyone to share.
Incidentally I have now seen the M3 in all the colours I was thinking of-Carbon Black/Phoenix Yellow and Laguna Seca Blue- and think it's between the yellow and black, with black slightly ahead. Looks amazing in the sunlight when it changes colour to a deep blue hue.
Jonathan-Best of luck with your choice for colour/spec.Apologies for the long response but just wanted to offer another view.
Gareth.
Until recently I was going to buy either a MY01 WRX Sportwagen or a BMW 330dse Touring to replace my company car (Golf GTi Turbo-pants!).
However having driven both cars extensively and carefully looked into the sourcing and purchase options for both I didn't feel COMPELLED to buy either. That's not to say that they are not great cars in their own way but they didn't inspire L-U-S-T. Whilst I ideally wanted a "lifestlye" estate I was prepared to look at other options if they existed. Jonathan (Chins) suggested a P1 and it's a great car, but not what I really wanted and I don't want to get into the huge P1 debate. Therefore I decided to test drive the M3 at my local BMW ****, sorry, Dealer. The dealer was pretty poor, at best, but the car is a blast. It's worth £40k and I also feel that over the short to medium term, a good investment/buy. I'm by no means a rich man but just one whose sick of crap company cars and therefore I'm opting out of that lottery and getting something I actually really want and desire. The 'BMW image thing'is something I can do nothing about but then I'll worry about that when the M3 SMG arrives in May 2002...Incidentally don't believe the 18 month/2 year waiting lists. Phone a few dealers (especially those in the 'sticks')and you may be surprised with a 12 month wait, as I am.....wish I knew how I was going to pay for the M3 though!!!.
At the end of the day I would say to anyone whose intrigued by the M3, DRIVE IT and then post your views for everyone to share.
Incidentally I have now seen the M3 in all the colours I was thinking of-Carbon Black/Phoenix Yellow and Laguna Seca Blue- and think it's between the yellow and black, with black slightly ahead. Looks amazing in the sunlight when it changes colour to a deep blue hue.
Jonathan-Best of luck with your choice for colour/spec.Apologies for the long response but just wanted to offer another view.
Gareth.
08 June 2001, 05:40 PM
#58
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 1,999
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Gareth Williams:
<B>
Until recently I was going to buy either a MY01 WRX Sportwagen or a BMW 330dse Touring to replace my company car (Golf GTi Turbo-pants!).
[/quote]
I went from MY99 PPP to 330dse Touring Auto. Very different but love it to death, and as previously stated the savings I will make over the first year will pay for a Caterham to inject REAL performance to my weekends and track excursion
Do I miss the Scoob - Yes
Do I regret changing - No
Would I go back - not with the current Subaru offerings
Do I enjoy saving £8000 per year - You Bet
Will the Scoob be THE car that stays in my heart - probably
If you do consider the 330d - feel free to mail me with any questions
<B>
Until recently I was going to buy either a MY01 WRX Sportwagen or a BMW 330dse Touring to replace my company car (Golf GTi Turbo-pants!).
[/quote]
I went from MY99 PPP to 330dse Touring Auto. Very different but love it to death, and as previously stated the savings I will make over the first year will pay for a Caterham to inject REAL performance to my weekends and track excursion
Do I miss the Scoob - Yes
Do I regret changing - No
Would I go back - not with the current Subaru offerings
Do I enjoy saving £8000 per year - You Bet
Will the Scoob be THE car that stays in my heart - probably
If you do consider the 330d - feel free to mail me with any questions
08 June 2001, 06:22 PM
#59
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: same time, different place
Posts: 11,313
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Thanks Gareth.
You're telling us you drove a 22k car and a 27k car and didn't lust for them, but drove a 38k car with a year's waiting list and you really liked it.
Funny that.
BJH
PS I'd just like to tell you all that I've returned from a weekend in Rome and, despite the fact that he is not Italian and has recently been seen in a mosque and a Greek Orthodox church, the Pope is, in fact, Catholic!!!
You're telling us you drove a 22k car and a 27k car and didn't lust for them, but drove a 38k car with a year's waiting list and you really liked it.
Funny that
.BJH
PS I'd just like to tell you all that I've returned from a weekend in Rome and, despite the fact that he is not Italian and has recently been seen in a mosque and a Greek Orthodox church, the Pope is, in fact, Catholic!!!
08 June 2001, 06:27 PM
#60
Scooby Regular
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 296
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bros:
<B>There are two issues here, P1 vs M3, and Scooby vs M3.
Some reality first. The P1 was overpriced (especially in WR form), and what originally seemed like a sure-fire winner in terms of power, exclusivity, and quality has fallen some way short of the mark. Yes, it’s stunningly fast and for some this alone will be enough, but others (such as myself) would want something a bit more special for £40k, which is what it would cost to get you one to anywhere near the spec of the M3.
Bros[/quote]
That's simply not true. All the WR bits apart from the brakes are completely unnecessary. The only upgrade you need for serious driving (or track work)is a bigger brake kit for about £1500, bringing the price to £33k, assuming you pay list (actually you can buy ones with 0 miles for 28k, meaning £29.5k). That's a fair saving on the M3. And it has definite performance advantages over the M3, namely much lower weight and 4 wheel drive. I agree that the M3 has its strengths and seems a very good car (nice leather interior, normally aspirated engine, quicker acceleration, BMW build quality, RWD if you prefer that) but it costs 8-9k more than a P1 right now, assuming you buy no options.
Personally with the type of situations I drive in, I would still go for the P1 if the M3 cost £30k. It and the Evo VI/VII are still unchallenged IMO as back road hackers which you can chuck around to your hearts content in all conditions.
<B>There are two issues here, P1 vs M3, and Scooby vs M3.
Some reality first. The P1 was overpriced (especially in WR form), and what originally seemed like a sure-fire winner in terms of power, exclusivity, and quality has fallen some way short of the mark. Yes, it’s stunningly fast and for some this alone will be enough, but others (such as myself) would want something a bit more special for £40k, which is what it would cost to get you one to anywhere near the spec of the M3.
Bros[/quote]
That's simply not true. All the WR bits apart from the brakes are completely unnecessary. The only upgrade you need for serious driving (or track work)is a bigger brake kit for about £1500, bringing the price to £33k, assuming you pay list (actually you can buy ones with 0 miles for 28k, meaning £29.5k). That's a fair saving on the M3. And it has definite performance advantages over the M3, namely much lower weight and 4 wheel drive. I agree that the M3 has its strengths and seems a very good car (nice leather interior, normally aspirated engine, quicker acceleration, BMW build quality, RWD if you prefer that) but it costs 8-9k more than a P1 right now, assuming you buy no options.
Personally with the type of situations I drive in, I would still go for the P1 if the M3 cost £30k. It and the Evo VI/VII are still unchallenged IMO as back road hackers which you can chuck around to your hearts content in all conditions.