A Message To RC Developments/Warrender (i did warn you)
05 August 2002, 10:30 AM
#31
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They have failed to reply......
I have the independent engineers report in my hand, this report was done on 18th July 2002, this was 2500 miles after RC Developments rebuilt my 8200 mile engine, which failed.
At the moment I am taking legal advice
I have the independent engineers report in my hand, this report was done on 18th July 2002, this was 2500 miles after RC Developments rebuilt my 8200 mile engine, which failed.
At the moment I am taking legal advice
05 August 2002, 01:23 PM
#36
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From a totally objective point of view, this company that did the inspection - are they in a similar line of business to RC developments?
The report itself doesn't look very detailed - is there anymore to it? When a report was done on my engine each component was analysed.
Where it says about excessive boost being used on std rods and pistons - what was the boost? And did you think you were getting uprated pistons and rods or did you know they were being kept std? And was the boost higher than described by RC? If not, then it's your assessors opinion that the pistons/rods can't take the boost but RCs opinion it can....
Their comment about the Apexi causing problems - if it's set up correctly it shouldn't, so it's a very sweeping statement.
Saying that, we did find the Apexi units on my car struggle at higher boost.......
I'm not sticking up for RC here - I've been quite vocal in the past that it is my opinion that they consistently exaggerate power claims on their upgrades - I just think if that's all their is to the report you should get another more detailied one done to backup your findings.
Do RC dyno the cars now after the mods now? I believe they didn't used to.......
Good luck with getting it sorted out.
The report itself doesn't look very detailed - is there anymore to it? When a report was done on my engine each component was analysed.
Where it says about excessive boost being used on std rods and pistons - what was the boost? And did you think you were getting uprated pistons and rods or did you know they were being kept std? And was the boost higher than described by RC? If not, then it's your assessors opinion that the pistons/rods can't take the boost but RCs opinion it can....
Their comment about the Apexi causing problems - if it's set up correctly it shouldn't, so it's a very sweeping statement.
Saying that, we did find the Apexi units on my car struggle at higher boost.......
I'm not sticking up for RC here - I've been quite vocal in the past that it is my opinion that they consistently exaggerate power claims on their upgrades - I just think if that's all their is to the report you should get another more detailied one done to backup your findings.
Do RC dyno the cars now after the mods now? I believe they didn't used to.......
Good luck with getting it sorted out.
05 August 2002, 01:35 PM
#37
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Its a pity, I always thought Warrender/RC Dev. looked like a decent company, and I was considering doing business with them. Don't think i will now, as they appear to be using the 'bury head in sand and hope it all goes away' technique of complaint management. Losers, in my opinion...
Beef
Beef
05 August 2002, 01:42 PM
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Craig
Having read through this post in full.I would agree......... As a consultant myself.When I ask for reports i always get 2-3 done and ask for very detailed reports. That way I have never got "Shot down " in court.
Having read through this post in full.I would agree......... As a consultant myself.When I ask for reports i always get 2-3 done and ask for very detailed reports. That way I have never got "Shot down " in court.
05 August 2002, 01:59 PM
#39
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CraigH
There are quite a few things not contained in the report that were witnessed by more than 8 people (all independent), Ant will eventually reveal all details.
Jeremy
There are quite a few things not contained in the report that were witnessed by more than 8 people (all independent), Ant will eventually reveal all details.
Jeremy
05 August 2002, 02:34 PM
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Interesting reading on the report, but i do feel some things have to be mentioned and some questions asked.(as we don't know the full picture).
my first point is that I personally have been to some of the so called 'best' tuners and had nightmares, i've also been to ones i've heard were poor and had nothing but good experiences.
I have recommended friends to use companies I have used successfully in the past, but there own experience proved costly and expensive and far from pleasant.
In 3+ years of Subaru ownership I am still to find a tuning holy grail that give me what i want, at a sensible price and for me to trust them 100%, my experiences have shown that if you like someone your using or about to use and you havent had a problem then why change after someone else visit, if we all posted our bad experiences im pretty sure there wouldnt be a tuner left in the country who had any customers!
sorry for the above diversion but felt it had to be said, back to my questions on the report that i just wanted to ask about.
1.was the car supposed to be 380 before the rebuild or after, why did it need a rebuild?
2.surely any car thats been driven will show some signs of wear or scoring? (only asking as im not very technical but it seems to me expecting zero wear would be niave)
3.craigh has already mentioned the boost/rods issue, and im fairly sure ive seen posts on the mlr about evo's running higher boost on std internals, so as craig said, surely the excessive boost comment is an opinion?
The recommendation for motec amused me, i once took my 'linked' car to a well known japanese tuner who simply dismissed it as 'cheap rubbish' and wanted to sell me motec for 2.5k fitted as the link in his opnion was not up to the job, but several cars on here have disproved that theory and its my firm belief that they were just hoping to extracate from cash from me to upgrade (they also wanted 2k for hks headers fitted) so it always makes me wonder just how 'independant' some reports are (mine was in for a gear box inspection and rebuild at the time).
just some observations/thoughts, not meant to be a dig or anything before i go down in a ball of net flaming
my first point is that I personally have been to some of the so called 'best' tuners and had nightmares, i've also been to ones i've heard were poor and had nothing but good experiences.
I have recommended friends to use companies I have used successfully in the past, but there own experience proved costly and expensive and far from pleasant.
In 3+ years of Subaru ownership I am still to find a tuning holy grail that give me what i want, at a sensible price and for me to trust them 100%, my experiences have shown that if you like someone your using or about to use and you havent had a problem then why change after someone else visit, if we all posted our bad experiences im pretty sure there wouldnt be a tuner left in the country who had any customers!
sorry for the above diversion but felt it had to be said, back to my questions on the report that i just wanted to ask about.
1.was the car supposed to be 380 before the rebuild or after, why did it need a rebuild?
2.surely any car thats been driven will show some signs of wear or scoring? (only asking as im not very technical but it seems to me expecting zero wear would be niave)
3.craigh has already mentioned the boost/rods issue, and im fairly sure ive seen posts on the mlr about evo's running higher boost on std internals, so as craig said, surely the excessive boost comment is an opinion?
The recommendation for motec amused me, i once took my 'linked' car to a well known japanese tuner who simply dismissed it as 'cheap rubbish' and wanted to sell me motec for 2.5k fitted as the link in his opnion was not up to the job, but several cars on here have disproved that theory and its my firm belief that they were just hoping to extracate from cash from me to upgrade (they also wanted 2k for hks headers fitted) so it always makes me wonder just how 'independant' some reports are (mine was in for a gear box inspection and rebuild at the time).
just some observations/thoughts, not meant to be a dig or anything before i go down in a ball of net flaming
05 August 2002, 03:07 PM
#43
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1.was the car supposed to be 380 before the rebuild or after, why did it need a rebuild?
The car was originally the 340 Warrender Demo (the first they did), the car was upgraded to a 380 at the rebuild stage, that took them 1 month to do, they honoured the warranty for the rebuild, and asked me to hand over £2675.22 for the upgrade, which I did
2.surely any car thats been driven will show some signs of wear or scoring? (only asking as im not very technical but it seems to me expecting zero wear would be niave)
Feel free to put a match above my oil filler cap, on second thoughts don't you won't ge close enough for all the fumes of petrol in the oil
3.craigh has already mentioned the boost/rods issue, and im fairly sure ive seen posts on the mlr about evo's running higher boost on std internals, so as craig said, surely the excessive boost comment is an opinion?
Speak to Ralliart, Xtreeme, Steve Hill, Fraser - But best of all speak to G-Force - as they were there when my car was put back on the rolling road for the 6th time, with a director of RC Developments on my mobile - telling me to alter the boost, and to create a spike in third gear - guess what the boost setting was..... 1.85bar!!
The car was originally the 340 Warrender Demo (the first they did), the car was upgraded to a 380 at the rebuild stage, that took them 1 month to do, they honoured the warranty for the rebuild, and asked me to hand over £2675.22 for the upgrade, which I did
2.surely any car thats been driven will show some signs of wear or scoring? (only asking as im not very technical but it seems to me expecting zero wear would be niave)
Feel free to put a match above my oil filler cap, on second thoughts don't you won't ge close enough for all the fumes of petrol in the oil
3.craigh has already mentioned the boost/rods issue, and im fairly sure ive seen posts on the mlr about evo's running higher boost on std internals, so as craig said, surely the excessive boost comment is an opinion?
Speak to Ralliart, Xtreeme, Steve Hill, Fraser - But best of all speak to G-Force - as they were there when my car was put back on the rolling road for the 6th time, with a director of RC Developments on my mobile - telling me to alter the boost, and to create a spike in third gear - guess what the boost setting was..... 1.85bar!!
05 August 2002, 03:19 PM
#45
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Nope Warrender have not called me once.
I have called Warrenders, I am afraid that I cannot post what was said, as I was told that it would be denied. Hence the action that I have to take now.
I have called Warrenders, I am afraid that I cannot post what was said, as I was told that it would be denied. Hence the action that I have to take now.
05 August 2002, 03:20 PM
#46
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So RC don't fit this kit with uprated pistons and rods.
It may be worth your while checking with Ralliart the limits of rods and pistons on your car.
And do you know if they do dyno test?
Do they have any get out cr4p that says "the typical installation will provide this powr but we can't guarantee..." blah blah blah?
I'd be surprised if the bores showed major signs of wear after that low a mileage and there certainly shouldn't be any scoring. Unles sof course something wasn't put back in correctly.
Ants can you comment on why the engine was rebuilt?
It may be worth your while checking with Ralliart the limits of rods and pistons on your car.
And do you know if they do dyno test?
Do they have any get out cr4p that says "the typical installation will provide this powr but we can't guarantee..." blah blah blah?
I'd be surprised if the bores showed major signs of wear after that low a mileage and there certainly shouldn't be any scoring. Unles sof course something wasn't put back in correctly.
Ants can you comment on why the engine was rebuilt?
05 August 2002, 03:26 PM
#47
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Bit difficult about why it needed a rebuild in the first place, I think that it came down to the fact of low or no oil - which seems to indicate Bore Wash, maybe! - The service intervals were well within the limits. I was told that one of the bottom end crank bearings were slack, and that 1 piston had to be replaced, they also wanted me to go for a stroker kit at the same time.
I was also told that there were NO signs of any oil leak
Apparently they took photos of everything, and said they would email them to me, these I have requested many times, but still have not received them.
Thats about all I should say at this moment!
I was also told that there were NO signs of any oil leak
Apparently they took photos of everything, and said they would email them to me, these I have requested many times, but still have not received them.
Thats about all I should say at this moment!
05 August 2002, 04:37 PM
#48
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Sorry to hear about your Evo Ant 
To be honest with you, RC is one company that id stay clear of, subaru or not, for less than 10k (according to their site) you can have a 400bhp sti
hmmmmm no doubt that will be using boost controllers etc....
There is another certain company in the North West who for reasons ill not go into, were slated by another certain company whos name ill not go into either but company 1 (as we shall say) have been servicing subaru's and now service evo's for a long time.
Company 2 isnt a company id go to IMHO but if i owned a jap import scoob or evo i would take it to company 1
The way that i see things here, RC and Warrender should pay for all costs on your car, if they promise a certain power output then they should deliver that within a few bhp, not 20 lower [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] also the problems with your engine.... that really does suck [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] and i know that there have always been posts about which is better, Xtreme (formally ralliart?) and RC for who gives you the better package... i think thats been solved for which one really does know about Evos.
Tony
To be honest with you, RC is one company that id stay clear of, subaru or not, for less than 10k (according to their site) you can have a 400bhp sti
hmmmmm no doubt that will be using boost controllers etc....There is another certain company in the North West who for reasons ill not go into, were slated by another certain company whos name ill not go into either but company 1 (as we shall say) have been servicing subaru's and now service evo's for a long time.
Company 2 isnt a company id go to IMHO but if i owned a jap import scoob or evo i would take it to company 1
The way that i see things here, RC and Warrender should pay for all costs on your car, if they promise a certain power output then they should deliver that within a few bhp, not 20 lower [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] also the problems with your engine.... that really does suck [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] and i know that there have always been posts about which is better, Xtreme (formally ralliart?) and RC for who gives you the better package... i think thats been solved for which one really does know about Evos.
Tony
05 August 2002, 05:56 PM
#49
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Ants,
Very sorry to hear about your car, I don't know you, but you always wish for people getting value for their money, not a broken car & lots of nailbiting
That said, I think Craig and pt do have a few fair points. Of course, you do indicate that we don't know all the details yet, fair enough, but my first impression of the report was "oh, there comes a MoTec"... A decent tuner should be able to get good/the best possible results with the hardware given, and I'm sure that you can get excellent results with Apexi gear. Maybe not 380 BHP, or maybe not running at 1.6+ bar boost. But... more to the point seems to be the question: how much boost can standard Evo internals take... 1.8 bar seems a whack of boost, but then we are Scooby people used to chocolate internals mind
I do think you have a strong case, and it's obvious from quickly reading MLR that you have been very patient about it all (wich makes your case even stronger BTW - you have given the other party a fair time & possibility to act upon your complaints). But I would agree with Craig/Luke here and get a second report, much more detailed, and without recommendations for a competing product. Maybe MoTec IS better than Apexi in this case, but a judge doesn't give a hoot about that. They want to see proof that the work was not done according to standards. So don't take their advice as criticism, in fact it might prove to be worth gold (so to speak)
In any case: good luck & keep cool.
Theo
Very sorry to hear about your car, I don't know you, but you always wish for people getting value for their money, not a broken car & lots of nailbiting
That said, I think Craig and pt do have a few fair points. Of course, you do indicate that we don't know all the details yet, fair enough, but my first impression of the report was "oh, there comes a MoTec"... A decent tuner should be able to get good/the best possible results with the hardware given, and I'm sure that you can get excellent results with Apexi gear. Maybe not 380 BHP, or maybe not running at 1.6+ bar boost. But... more to the point seems to be the question: how much boost can standard Evo internals take... 1.8 bar seems a whack of boost, but then we are Scooby people used to chocolate internals mind
I do think you have a strong case, and it's obvious from quickly reading MLR that you have been very patient about it all (wich makes your case even stronger BTW - you have given the other party a fair time & possibility to act upon your complaints). But I would agree with Craig/Luke here and get a second report, much more detailed, and without recommendations for a competing product. Maybe MoTec IS better than Apexi in this case, but a judge doesn't give a hoot about that. They want to see proof that the work was not done according to standards. So don't take their advice as criticism, in fact it might prove to be worth gold (so to speak)
In any case: good luck & keep cool.
Theo
05 August 2002, 06:21 PM
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Ant
I would step back and take a good look at the whole picture. You need to have a good "Cards on the table" meeting with them. But I think from all the info you can give us...... you need some better cards.If all is correct then you can get these cards.I am terrible with my clients!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I dont care if they are happy or not about the way I bully them?? When they give me a job to do.... I get it done and they Must help me.They come to me complaining they are/have been ripped off and give me threads to go on with. I tell them when we put our "cards on the table" I want the game over and done with.If not its a waste of their money .The other side must have no doubt they are wrong. If you can get a meeting have it at a neutral venue and insist on Solicitors been present.
Good luck.
I would step back and take a good look at the whole picture. You need to have a good "Cards on the table" meeting with them. But I think from all the info you can give us...... you need some better cards.If all is correct then you can get these cards.I am terrible with my clients!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I dont care if they are happy or not about the way I bully them?? When they give me a job to do.... I get it done and they Must help me.They come to me complaining they are/have been ripped off and give me threads to go on with. I tell them when we put our "cards on the table" I want the game over and done with.If not its a waste of their money .The other side must have no doubt they are wrong. If you can get a meeting have it at a neutral venue and insist on Solicitors been present.
Good luck.
05 August 2002, 07:05 PM
#52
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'low or no oil '
That doesnt sound to good, was that from when Warrenders owned the car or yourself?
how much did the rebuild cost you from the lack of oil damage? Or did you just pay for the upgrade as your post implied?
The only reason i ask is that a friend who is the general manager for 3 alfa dealerships currently has 3 coupes (v6's) with blown engines in his workshop all with no oil in. They are all under warranty and serviced regularly, but oil is something that the owners have to check on and top up if between services. All three have taken alfa to legal proceedings, one has failed already...
Still doesnt help the 380 trail though.........im sidetracking again, sorry.
That doesnt sound to good, was that from when Warrenders owned the car or yourself?
how much did the rebuild cost you from the lack of oil damage? Or did you just pay for the upgrade as your post implied?
The only reason i ask is that a friend who is the general manager for 3 alfa dealerships currently has 3 coupes (v6's) with blown engines in his workshop all with no oil in. They are all under warranty and serviced regularly, but oil is something that the owners have to check on and top up if between services. All three have taken alfa to legal proceedings, one has failed already...
Still doesnt help the 380 trail though.........im sidetracking again, sorry.
06 August 2002, 10:43 AM
#54
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Don't know how much oil EVOs are supposed to use but it sounds a lot if everything was supposed to be standard tolerances.
Anyway, think we're sidetracking slightly.
Like Luke and I have said I think it would be a very good idea to get some more assesments - may be an idea to call the AA and get the number of your local independant assessor - someone with absolutely no vested interests - and really the more the better.
The more you have all reaching the same conclusion, the more bullet proof your case and the less time it will take to sort out as it should by then be beyond dispute.
Going back to the engine that blew, it's probably irrelevant - I doubt that there will be an unbiased view available from either parties now.
As another aside - are RC engineers Mitsu trained or normal mechanics? It would also be worth getting info on the R&D they've done on that engine package if you can.
Anyway, think we're sidetracking slightly.
Like Luke and I have said I think it would be a very good idea to get some more assesments - may be an idea to call the AA and get the number of your local independant assessor - someone with absolutely no vested interests - and really the more the better.
The more you have all reaching the same conclusion, the more bullet proof your case and the less time it will take to sort out as it should by then be beyond dispute.
Going back to the engine that blew, it's probably irrelevant - I doubt that there will be an unbiased view available from either parties now.
As another aside - are RC engineers Mitsu trained or normal mechanics? It would also be worth getting info on the R&D they've done on that engine package if you can.
08 August 2002, 01:50 PM
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Ant
Was the car an ex-demo? as I went out with a Warrender sales guy for a drive and he thrashed the car in every gear with only 20 miles on the clock! I said dont you have to run it in and his reply was its got 3 years warrany! God help anyone who owns it after 3 years.
Stuart
Was the car an ex-demo? as I went out with a Warrender sales guy for a drive and he thrashed the car in every gear with only 20 miles on the clock! I said dont you have to run it in and his reply was its got 3 years warrany! God help anyone who owns it after 3 years.
Stuart
08 August 2002, 02:57 PM
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You shouldnt trash it too much from cold really, but the engines are pre-run in anyway. After building them, they rev them up in every gear to make sure they work. I doubt they'd do that if it were to break later on. Also, GrN cars are never run in, they get them new, build them and trash them. Mind you, they also break them but I doubt you will break the engine because of that...
but I doubt you will break the engine because of that...
08 August 2002, 03:37 PM
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OK, it might not be the time/place to discuss this but some parts of this statement confused me:
OK, I don't build engines for a living, but who puts old piston rings on new pistons? I've also never seen "score" marks on a piston skirt or bore that was normal. I've seen "wear" marks, but a "score" is a whole other kettle of fish, surely?
Not trying to take sides or anything, just observations and questions base on my limited understanding and experience so I can form my own opinion of what happened in this case.
Bore wear will be evident in relation to the mileage/ running time of the car. As one piston was only replaced in the engine and was done as a precaution to replacing a con-rod (no failure occurred). The reconditioning/ renewing of bore faces was not necessary. All original piston rings were installed in their original location and remaining three pistons were installed in their original location thus bore wear will be evident respective of the total mileage of the car, not the short time since the repair work was carried out.
<snip>
Score marks are also usually apparent on skirt sides of pistons & corresponding faces of the bores.
<snip>
Score marks are also usually apparent on skirt sides of pistons & corresponding faces of the bores.
Not trying to take sides or anything, just observations and questions base on my limited understanding and experience so I can form my own opinion of what happened in this case.
08 August 2002, 03:56 PM
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Before anyone can make any assumptions there needs to be a completely independent report.
So far Steve Hill Motorsport and RC have done statements.......I for one as a non-biased bystander, would not accept either as the word.
This is not a criticism of either company, I just think that, as suggested on the MLR, the RAC or AA would be a best option as other tuning companies are going to ant your business.
The full story needs to be told to whoever does it too. This need not be put on here, depending on whether you want that Ant.
What is your next step?
So far Steve Hill Motorsport and RC have done statements.......I for one as a non-biased bystander, would not accept either as the word.
This is not a criticism of either company, I just think that, as suggested on the MLR, the RAC or AA would be a best option as other tuning companies are going to ant your business.
The full story needs to be told to whoever does it too. This need not be put on here, depending on whether you want that Ant.
What is your next step?