iainalpine

there seems to be a fare bit of bitching going on here. i dont want any 1 to fall out. sam, i see you are from EVO LAND. any nice cars for sale! only kidding mate, i really do like the car but the problem i am haing with it is playing with my head. the knock link i have ordered is still not here. bummer.
tell me this folks, if i ditched the system thats on the car and went for the link system that is on |AlanG's car, would the fault still be there? the saga continues

Andy.F

Ian, Sam and I will not 'fall out' this is timid compared to previous rantings

The link would only solve it if everything mechanical is ruled out, Sam mentioned valves, springs n things, I think this is similar to what was wrong with Technopete's car and he runs a Link.

If it is purely a MAF/ECU fault then the Link would solve it as it used MAP not MAF

Sam Elassar

i am really sorry ian, i would not call it bitching, really. we all know each other. i do have a 7 however i had a subaru for over 2 years until i sold it around xmass. was on off the fastest scoobs around here, apart from andy's. done over 20 track days with it and gave 322bhp/305lb/ft at star. i have also mapped few cars with the link ecu. i am resposible for most of alan's map as well. his continually evolving map so although i have an evo now. i have got my share experience with scoobies.


andy
dunno about the rollers. i don't think the setting have changed, but the rollers got calibrated not that long ago



sam
going away now for real

iainalpine

as long as you all stay mates. have just found out that i am on for the rolling road day on sunday. might see a few of you up there.
iain

Andy.F

No problem Ian Twas I you were speaking to at Crail, see you at Star

iainalpine

cool mate, see you there. hope the car runs ok on the rollers this time.
iain

AlanG

what?!!? since when!!

Hell, now I know why it's so bl**dy slow!!

Andy
Yep will be over to see you Sunday.



[Edited by AlanG - 8/23/2002 7:12:47 PM]

iainalpine

allan, i have plenty room in the car if you want a lift.

AlanG

Hi Iain

Cheers for the offer but i gotta get back afore 5 to go to the Speedway for 6.

A

iainalpine

ok mate, no problem.see you up there. what time are you heading off on sunday?

AlanG

Andy

The problem with temp compensation on Jim's rollers is the cost of replacing the probe.

I think he had this facility installed which wasn't cheap (£1600 ish) but it kept knackering the probes , so now an average temp is put in to the software.
Bit of a nonsense really since the system will calculate flywheel BHP to ISO whatever based on the temp figure inputted.
If he puts in a high air temp figure, then although you're atw should be correct, it will flatter any flywheel figure.

Something like that anyway...

Darius would be better placed to tell us..

A

john banks

Sam, I think the fishing lines are getting tangled a bit

This has nothing to do with narrowband lambda sensors or dodgy injectors. Pure and simple the guy's ECU registers too low MAF readings. No need to complicate it beyond that or look for other explanations unless that doesn't lead to a fix. Changing the calibration on the map and it all worked very well, but it would be nice to find an underlying explanation for the low readings if possible. Looking again when I next see the car we'll see if it is still hitting the same areas of the map.

If you want to talk the lambda issue... I am happy using a narrowband lambda sensor as I do not on the vast majority of standard cars actually map by it. I set target AFRs which the ECU provides using the MAF sensor. The lambda sensor is a reality check, and if it reads in the range 880-900 mV I leave it at that. Yes it is still rich, but smoothly leaner than Subaru planned. We are not mapping race cars to run on race gas. Long term reliability is the key for me and most anyway. There are some good features of MAF mapping and this is one of them - easier acquisition of your target AFR, more toleration of mods. Speed density vs MAF, narrowband vs wideband all have their pros and cons and it would be very narrow minded to accept that there is only one way to skin a cat, and certainly I would not suggest it is the way I am doing it now! It is a bit like Subaru/Evo snobbery. Pointless and boring. You and I can cite authorities, theory, practicality and cost, but at the end of the day you or I can just say I don't agree Put your handbag away and lighten up a bit m8 - you are a very nice chap and I like you, but lets not get overexcited

Having said all of that Iain, yes if you switched to a Link you would get rid of MAF issues. However, you would have more expense, no more power or torque unless you trade safety. It would be more difficult to map to get cruise and idle right, and you would have a pretty low resolution map to work with, no ECU diagnostics, fewer safety features, less toleration of different fuels. No I am not saying one or the other is better. It is not surprising some Link users want to see if the grass is greener, and also that the most respected Link mapper in the UK (who uses narrowband lambda ) is now using Ecutek in a lot of cases where he previously used Link. Not all cases, as one is not "better" than the other. They have different applications. Just tools. Otherwise you end up back on the C64 v Sinclair, Evo vs Scooby type arguments.

Now why hasn't Claudius joined in the fun ?

[Edited by john banks - 8/23/2002 7:42:36 PM]

Sam Elassar

hi john

i am not getting over excited or anything of that sort. i am just voicing my opninion. just because the most popular mapper in the uk ( only according to scoobynet members) maps using a narrow band does not make him right! he is a normal person.

the problem with scoobynet is you are so blinkered, apart from probably andy F who does is not seem to have any hiden agendas. some respected member says something and everybody follows like sheep. i am really sorry that i have mentioned facts.

you see the thing is, what i have said will put any paid mapper in a strange position. if you agree with me that means that you have mapped all these cars incorrectly. and if you don't you are not justifying your customers trust.


see you on sunday anyway


sam

AlanG

Well I now think the Link is a waste of time as well Iain so wouldn't recommend buying it.

I only managed to get easily over what was once deemed to be magical, 300 bhp/ 300 Ib ft with it.(Now 400 is the aim.. )
And that was with a map which was very very rich, so losing me power. Not my mapping by the way, but no need to go down that road.

This and the fact that it has very few safety features compared to the rest, i'm sitting on a 3 year to date time bomb.

I suppose it has served it's purpose for which it has been a 100% reliable little piece of equipment but there appears to be better stuff out there now. I would certainly hope so. Since i bought my Subaru 3 1/2 years ago, there's been plenty time for development.
Back then, my decision to purchase was based on what was available to me and at a reasonable cost for the benefits it was going to give.

The other thing is, if you look at how much they cost new and how little you will now get for it secondhand because of it's limitations which have been outlined by the experienced mappers, you're probably best to stick with what you got.

A

[Edited by AlanG - 8/24/2002 7:34:29 AM]

Bob Rawle

Hey you lot I use narrow band, wide band or wide range as and when according to circumstance so when you have all finished deciding how and with what I work with I would appreciate someone checking with me first ?

Fact's gentlemen, seem few and far between sometimes !!!

Bob

RB5#295

OK, as I keep saying when I qualify my ignorance, I'm new to Scoobies, so please excuse my lack of knowledge and don't take offence.

Bob, from your post I'm assuming that JB was referring to you in his statement about "the most respected Link mapper"? If that's the case and you also use ECUTek then maybe my car needs to meet you (Swindon isn't THAT far from me).

Fen

john banks

Sam you are mixing up your own opinions with facts and by stating them as such then implying that if it is not done your way the mapper is either dodgy or wrong. This is clearly your opinion and you are entitled to it. I don't agree with you as I have pointed out above and given technical reasons why which you have not disputed. I don't think you have remapped using a MAF based system on a Subaru - it alleviates the need to know or presume volumetric efficiency data when working out your fuelling and as I said I am only using the lambda as a reality check and using AFR targets using the MAF sensor. You have discovered wideband and now if everyone doesn't do it your way they are suddenly substandard. More than one way to skin a cat, you are entitled to your opinion. But it is only that.

Bob didn't mean to say you exclusively used one system. I was trying to say that there are different tools for different jobs, and pointing out that you have had good, safe, reliable results from narrowband lambda.

T-uk

said by sam

.

you managed to get the evo as fast on the straights yet?,hope not as since you sold the scoob I have been able to keep up .

I am going to agree with Sam here,on a system like Link the standard lambda is not accurate enough,however IMHO with the ECUTEK stuff,if only used as a ckeck and main fuel mapping is done from MAF readings I see no problem.

I have a lambdalink myself and only really have it for "peace of mind",if one day I give it wide open throttle and the last light does not light up I will be straight to jb for a run on delta dash.do not know if it's even accurate enough for this but at least for a small investment I will know that I tried to cover the angles.

teknopete

Hi guys,

Just spotted this 1 so a bit L8 in comming in, a couple of qwik questions 4 u John (as reading the previous posts it would appear there is an ECUtek V`s Link sub thread here). Refering to the star dyno results, how many scoobs have there been since we started recording the results that have produced 300+bhp using a link? How many others have there been? Are all these cars still running? Now how many have there been with ECUteks fitted I`m gonna estimate mmmm none?
Besides that of the fastest cars (scoobs)at Knockhill how many run Links? Again how many run ECUTeks?

Now is it just me or can anyone else see a patern developing here
As everyone knows I`ve got 1 of the earliest scoobs on this board and been running a link for a long time now (18months) and generating pretty high figures without probs, previously I ran a schip at the max for two years so if there were going to be probs i`d imagine they`d have surfaced by now, no?

Reliability doesn`t come into it IMHO (unless we`re talking drive train not being able to keep up)

Pete

[Edited by teknopete - 8/24/2002 12:15:03 PM]

john banks

Pete - Ecutek is still new and limited to 99/00 cars, in addition I am the only one with an Ecutek map in Scotland running a turbo other than a TD04L and have only had that on my car for a month. You will see some results at Star from my car once it has comparable spec to the Link cars (ie a FMIC) and the results will be just fine I hope. If you want to compare the ECUs it will get into a pointless slanging match - they each have their advantages. Re power figures you have to compare cars of the same spec on the same dyno. I think you will find that Steve Done's and my car hold the two best results for TD04L cars on PE's rollers despite being done in summer. Now yes you could say conspiracy theory PE's rollers etc. There are also hi-power cars on the PE dyno with bigger turbos that are getting excellent results with Ecutek, Link whatever. In addition the best Scooby so far at Star didn't use a remap at all!

When I am talking reliability I am not referring to the Link - I am referring to the narrow band vs WB lambda discussion and pointing out that we are not running these cars to the ragged edge so the accuracy of WB is superfluous in a lot (NOT all) of cases.

I think Sam and Steve saw massive differences between the Evo lambda sensor and a wideband. However on Scoobies, how many cars are LEAN because of a HIGH reading lambda sensor? The opposite is the problem, and if you leave margins, and only use it as a reality check I don't see the issue. I have mapped a few cars now with dodgy lambda sensors, and every time the readings were unbelievably low that they were obvious - before I even mapped them the car would have blown up it was so lean if the readings were true. You can't base your decisions on the results of only one sensor. Thankfully there are a collection of them. If two sensors are stuffed that is where things get tricky. If we are not mapping on race fuel, then taking 0.5 AFR points off Subaru's best - eg the MY99 AE801 ECU then that gives a sensible increase in power.

[Edited by john banks - 8/24/2002 1:10:36 PM]

EMS

John,

Why not using the same (new) lambda sensor for mapping the cars? I am thinking about that, as I also see quite some difference between the cars. If you use the same sensor and use it only for a couple of miles, it should give the same readings for years.

Always use a MAF which has proved to be O.K.

I´d like to show my Impreza to those who have doubts about the power with EcuTek, you only have to come to the Netherlands.

EcuTek has no restrictions, the std. sensors and actuators have.

Mark.

john banks

Sounds like a good way to do it, dodgy lambda threads permitting.

AlanG

T-uk

That point about the Lambdalink not lighting up highlighted a failing sensor on my car some time ago and also a subsequent failed sensor. This was before ECutek came on the scene and without the Link I would never have known.

Indeed, because the sensor still gave a reading, the Link helped in proving to the dealer that the sensor was faulty and was replaced without issue.

If the lambdalink were to show the car as really lean, then i would imagine you may possibly have detonation problems along with it, but unlikely.

It's a bit unfair to compare ECU's since as John said, there are no like for like cars to compare and from what i believe, there probably won't be up here in Scotland in the near future.

At the end of the day as far as power is concerned, all engines need fuel, air and a spark to produce it. Doesn't matter what you use to get those three involved at the right time when the engine needs it.

John has a vested interest in the ECUtek setup, so is probably biased towards that. There is nothing wrong with ECUtek. After all, Subaru probably spent millions on developing the ECU, so makes sense to take advantage of their development costs.

The other advantage is that as far as mapping is concerned, though i stand to be corrected, is that there is a base map already there (developed by Subaru) which controls idling and to some extent cruise zones, so mapping time for a customer should be minimised to correcting for different variances in boost and engines associated components, whereas the Link as an example (also GEMS, Motec Pectel etc) require a complete map to be sorted (start, idle, cruise, boost)and hence one would normally expect these ECU's to cost more to map for each vehicle.

A.

[Edited by AlanG - 8/24/2002 1:36:44 PM]

AlanG

John Banks

Maybe not reliability, but your post infers that the Link is not as safe as ECUtek because of it's limited safety features and as such is a poor choice.

[Edited by AlanG - 8/24/2002 1:54:32 PM]

john banks

I would love to get rid of my restrictive and potentially frail MAF sensor. I don't think the Link is dangerous far from it. It was really the only choice on a reasonable budget for a very long time. It has some advantages and disadvantages. Depends on your car and what you need as to which is right. User can map as well - which could be an advantage or a disadvantage!

T-uk

Pete put the fishin rod away.for your year of car you really only have one cost effective remappable ecu,which you have.

as for ecutek v link,ecutek tweak the subaru map which I do not think is all that bad.I was told [so may be wrong],that your cars best ever results at star are with a standard ecu with fmic at low boost,I have also been told that since changing to link that your 1/4 mile times have suffered.if this is true then surely you can't argue that the standard ecu is not up to the job.

john banks

Spits out fishing hooks, coils up fishing lines and hands them back to owners Anyone want to start with handbags now or shall be wait till dawn at Star

Pavlo

john banks

LOL, where is the crocodile skin effect one I want that one!



PS mine seems bigger than yours Pavlo - I win

[Edited by john banks - 8/24/2002 2:58:56 PM]

iainalpine

where is this thread going guys. it all started with a low maf sensor voltage and now we are making hand bags. mmmmmmmmm. maybe this is what i need!