jeremy

Hunk,

How did the BMW do in that particular 4WD test?
Thanks

Hoppy

Hunk, did they mentioned what the times would have been in the wet?

As a general comment, this is a very interesting debate, but if the world was permanently wet (and it has been lately) then FWD is useless and RWD is difficult and sometimes dangerous.

I'm no more than an average driver and I love the forgiving nature of the Scoob. More smiles per mile for the likes of me

I am just about to opt out of a company car scheme and go it alone. I've agonised over an M3, 3.2 Golf 4-motion, quick new Audi TT rumoured, Jag XKR, Elise, Evo-7. The list goes on. But the only other car that does it for me is an Evo-6 Mak, which gets too much attention. And the lease company has offered me my UK00 Scoob for £10.5k The Scoob is a no-brainer really.

Also, I want to stay part of the ScoobyNet community in the 'true' Scooby-owning sense, modding this and that as and when I can afford to. Is that sad, or can you put a value on it? Not only the info and entertainment, but I've met and made a few good friends on here.

Cheers,

Richard.

jeremy

Simon,

After thoughtfully writing a reasoned set of ideas (as copied again below) I would think that with your interest in such matters, you would have some sort of responce?...

Simon,
Thanks for the more thoughtful reply this time. I agree with you that indeed if you want science then do science. However I must take issue with you about your comment that:

“If you just want to see how the cars go, the current mag tests are a lot better than they used to be, and will get better than they are now, but they will always be met with "we could surely do this better?".

I have been reading cars mags now for far longer than I’d like to admit. I’ve read everything from the old Motor to Fast Lane right up to today. And I can tell you right now mag tests are NOT a lot better than they used to be, in fact they are worse. If you doubt me then I ask you to go back and read Motor from around 86-90’, in that mag they actually did do scientific testing. Or look at Fast Lane and read Mark Hales numerous meticulously written track-tests and road car group tests in which offered far far more handling details than any of today. And no I am not dreaming, I have saved a lot of these mags, and re-read them every now and again when I want to recall what good auto journalism is all about. Simon, actually there is no comparison at all really. Today’s articles lack any sort of objectivity or even subjective consistency at all. (If you do have any recommendations of good articles please do let me know) In fact there isn’t even the text available to be descriptive In the first place- just for pictures! So absolutely “we could do this better”! But no we do not need to go to the extremes you suggest to do so.

We do not need so many measurements of speed and g forces. We simply need back to back comparisons of cars in convoy. Also we are not looking for which car has the most grip or speed, but rather the ones which have enough speed and grip combined with special qualities that drivers would find the most useful on real roads. Qualities like steering feel, progressiveness, ability to regain control, predictability, stability etc. I’d bet such a comparison could best start with you Simon. As a True Grip feature comparing an Impreza with a Evo- finally we could get a understanding on really what these cars do in x,y,z situations. We could learn which dynamics/systems help the driver as opposed to leave him/her as a passenger, out of the loop unable to know when the car will not make that next corner!
Thanks, JL

ex-webby

jeremy

chill out mate! I've been working all weekend almost 24 hours a day at the german round of the world rally championship. I got off a plane in the early hours of this morning and have been flat out working again since about 8:00am..

I've just sat down and feel like going straight to bed, so it may be tomorrow night before I get a chance to properly read all this and respond.

All the best

Simon

jeremy

Simon,

Sorry about that Simon. Just thought that like so many other posts the thread had been put out into scoobyspace, never to be heard from again. Take your time, respond whenever you get the time.
Sorry, Jeremy

[Edited by jeremy - 8/27/2002 7:24:18 PM]

Claudius

That proves that AWD is faster than RWD when the cars weigh the same (the ix weighs more than the i but still won; think about having the same weight for both cars).

jeremy

Cladius,

Actually if you read that article or also Fast Lane which did the same basic test, you will find that the front suspension on the IX is set up, including geometry, quite a bit more (sporty) aggresivly than the regular 525, due to less of a need (4WD) for the BMW engineers to make the 2WD understeer. Also, while not sure if it matters for speed, but the IX was given a new rack-and-pinion steering system, as opposed to the old recirculating ball type. Everyone who ever drove the two mostly commented that the IX felt an altogether more sporty and better handling car than the 2WD.

It would be quite interesting to see that old 525iX go up against a 325Xi (of coarse one would have to lower the 325 and put sport sus on it) of today?
JL

[Edited by jeremy - 8/28/2002 5:55:44 AM]

Hoppy

Jeremy, I repeat that I'm on your side but what you are asking for is not possible. We, and a few others, are nerdy anorak types who love to wallow in detail and the esoteric. Few other car buyers are, eg most new cars are bought without even a test drive and judgements made on what it looks like inside and out and, increasingly, the brand image. I don't like it, either, but that's what sells.

I also can't help repeat that the magazines you refer to are all now defunct! The emphasis in UK magazine publishing today is more on presentation than ever before. The word count has gone down, the pictures are bigger and rather more 'arty' than informative, a lot is spent on design and photography and they all print on the very best paper (paper is the biggest single cost in magazine production).

But the main reason why what you are asking for is impossible is that all the things you want to know about are majorly effected by the tyres. Since you can never put exactly the same tyres on all the cars, 100% objective comparisons can't be made

Best regards,

Richard.

carl

So it's all down to tyres then?

ex-webby

Hi All

Apologies for delay.

Hoppy REALLY DOES know of what he speaks (trust me).

The test we did at bruntingthorpe (which hoppy was a huge part of) aimed to take it a little step closer by chosing a very carefully planned circuit and comparing the actual limits of the cars individually.

I would definitely be very interested in any test that could be set-up to do this better and would be more than happy to offer my services, but I (unfortunately) just do not have the time to set these things up at present.

On the 911 AWD vs RWD thing.. that does NOT (yet again) prove anything about AWD and RWD, it just proves (maybe) something about those two cars.

As I have repeatedly said.. the only way you can really answer the question "is AWD faster than RWD" is to develop one of each to their absolute optimum and then compare them.

Up until that point, you just have to use science and experience.

The laws of the traction circle and tyre dynamics are not in question. The laws of physics are not in question.

If standard AWD was quicker on smooth tarmac than RWD there would be no need for the active diffs to transfer all power to the rear and keep it as close to the rear as possible on tarmac.

Of course there are some AWD cars that are faster than some RWD cars, in the same way there are some FWD cars that are faster than some RWD cars. But that doesn't mean anything about the actual properties of AWD and RWD.

All the best

Simon

jeremy

Hoppy and Simon,

Simple, do your best homework in order to choose two cars for a task- fast road driving. Simply pick a Evo 6/7 and a Impreza that are voted most able for safe yet fast road progress-note also vote on tires to be used. Yes this is imprecise but it is still better than any one else has done.

Once two suitable cars are choosen. Get a few compentant drivers aboard and drive them back to back on challenging roads in varing conditions. Take careful notes about any number of handling/driver interaction criteria you so desire. Repeat corners as necessary. If road use is deemed to unsafe, then do this on the track that most resembles a challenging road. Measure the dynamics of each over a few days.

Its funny really, but no one has ever done even this! All we have is antidotal evidence. I really do not believe there is any reason why this test could not be done, other than that no one actually really cares.

Claudius

What does this mean? My car is 50/50?

OK. So, err, what's your point?

Hoppy

Jeremy, so now you have narrowed this test down to just two cars, changed the tyres to make them the same (BTW Scoobs and Evos run different sized tyres) and resorted to a race track to do the comparison tests.

I'm not sure how useful or relevant the findings would be, and they would certainly not be repeatable. Although they might be interesting, we all know that the Evo would win, anyway! And an experienced tester could discern that from the spec sheet, without even driving the cars!

With respect, if it's so easy, why don't you do it? The Bruntingthorpe tests to which Simon refers were conducted with 100% volunteer support and a funding budget of exactly zero GBP. Magazines work on a broadly similar principle - the cars are supplied FOC by manufacturers and the editorial teams do their best within tight budgetary and time constraints. Your 'ideal' does not take into account the realities of business publishing or majority customer demands.

Best regards,

Richard.

Claudius

Absolutely.

jeremy

Hoppy,
"Jeremy, so now you have narrowed this test down to just two cars, changed the tyres to make them the same"

No I feel each car should get the tire which a consensous (that which most drivers feel represents the best comprimise for challenging road use) vote would achieve. Two, three, four cars?


"(BTW Scoobs and Evos run different sized tyres) and resorted to a race track to do the comparison tests."

"Resorted" was a funny word to use. Makes it seems as if I'm concocting some wayward scheme. Actually I think the (Wales like Evo do) road would be fine if whoever did the test could manage to extend a car hard there, over and again. And indeed some racetracks, believe it or not, might be able to be used because some do mimic real roads rather well- no shame in this.


"I'm not sure how useful or relevant the findings would be"

More useful than most magazine tests to date. Thats a pretty darn good start. And yes, provided each car was checked for tolerances, (geometry, camber, etc), tires (including pressures) etc, this test would be relevant, as each car would represent a version of the car that any could so buy/build should they want. A useful reference for both buyer and testers alike. A starting point for one modication at a time. Quite relevant.

Also, realise its not about "winning", its simply a matter of finding out the indiviual handling properties/tendancies of each car. Its useful knowledge which none of us had before.

"With respect, if it's so easy, why don't you do it?"

Excellent point. As soon as I can (money permits) I promise I will.

The Bruntingthorpe tests to which Simon refers were conducted with 100% volunteer support

A good thing you did.

"and a funding budget of exactly zero GBP. Magazines work on a broadly similar principle - the cars are supplied FOC by manufacturers and the editorial teams do their best within tight budgetary and time constraints. Your 'ideal' does not take into account the realities of business publishing or majority customer demands."

True. But it would be fun, informative and maybe just maybe we'd show those silly magazines about what road test comparisons really can be. Not just a matter of caually storming around for a few hours and throwing paragraphs at the word processor. A template for others in the public who want to actually know what smart systems (esp, abc, dsc etc) really do, when they work or not, how to respond to these systems, how to properly calibrate a specific suspension/tire/geometry, how to drive a car with specific handling characteristics; in specific conditions and on.

After all most people really do not know these aspects of their car or their driving, so I think such knowledge would probably help.


[Edited by jeremy - 8/29/2002 6:18:02 AM]

Hoppy

and best regards, mate.

Richard.