POC

"essentially the same engine"

Wrong, do some reading on that mate.

uxg

Errr I have done my reading. The engine in the E46 M3 is a development of the same engine used in the E36 M3 Evo. It's the inline 6 cylinder 3.2 litre which in the E36 produced 321bhp at 6000 rpm and 258 ft lb of torque. Don't believe all this talk of 30 % new etc. They are just bits that have been replaced so that the car can handle it's redline limit being raised to around 7900. The E46 produces 343bhp at 7900rpm and 262ft lb of torque. That's only up by 22bhp and 4ft lb of torque and these gains are due mainly to changes made to the VANOS system, the new 4 pipe exhaust system and the redline being raised.

BMW thought about putting a new engine something like a V8 in the new M3 but decided that development costs would be too much at present so they decided to tweak the existing E36 engine. The next generation M3 is now rumoured to get the new engine either a V8 or V10 as they have reached the limit with the current straight six engine which is in fact the same engine which has been used since the orignal 3.0 litre e36 M3.

I do read lot's about cars (my huge stack of car mags will atest to that) and I also have a friend who is a head mechanic at a BMW main dealer and he should know. In fact he rates the new M5 much more highly than the new M3. He reckons the V8 engine on the M5 is in a different class. Although the M3 engine is very clever it is actually the same engine that has been in existence since the early 90's. Don't believe everything you read in the BMW brochures

LG John

This is/has been the most hotly disputed/argued point on scoobynet over the last few months. I think we need to at least solve the straight-line thing. We need volunteers for the 1/4 mile: different ages of M3 v's different types/modded/standard/etc Impreza's. If such an event is held at Crail I'll happily use my car as a medium (will be after tonight ) modified UK scooby.

Twisties is always down to the driver. I stuggled to keep up with a ****ty old van because the driver was willing to die to prove his point!

TomM

Maybe we can get Carlo and his Fiesta Cosworth to come and show us all up!!

This debate could go on forever, and it already has!. Iam an M3 man, you guys are all Scooby boys, we will argue in favour of our car until we are blue in the face!.

At the end of the day we all know deep down the M3 is faster than any Scooby in the world , infact its even quicker than Cossies "saff 4by4"

All cars will be different, drivers, tyres, la la la la

We all own fast cars which we enjoy so bollox to it!, see you on the road Scooby boys!!

uxg

Your absolutely right. Both cars are very good cars and I am sure most people get lot's of enjoyment drivng them wether they be M3 owners or scooby drivers so I think we should put an end to these juvenile arguments.

P.S. My Type R is faster than any M3

Pavlo

Just 2 questions:

How come there are M3 owners on this board in the first place?

If the answer is what I think it is, then why do people have to be such snobs?

Paul

chrisp

I wouldnt pay 40K for a BMW not worth the money IMHO, 99% of people that drive BMWs have them as a status symbol trouble is they arent as its a rep weapon of choice.

The M3 may be 0.5 quicker to 100 but so what my scoob cost half as much . Funny both the BMW drivers on here and the scoob drivers must have never met as no one has ever lost . Of course no one races on the road either .

Its like the EVO,Skyline drivers, look its my money and I spend it on what I want. The old crap keeps getting said "they think" their cars are quicker but I prefer the scoob so tough . The scoob may not be the best car in the world but for what I wanted to pay and what was important to me it does exactly what I wanted.

When I brought my RA for the money I could have had a 320/323 which was a joke in performance comparison, thats the bottom line . If I was into road racing (which I arent BTW) and lost to a M3 then it cost twice as much so nothing to lose everything to gain .

TomM

1,

I am an M3 driver and have openly admitted in a few posts that Ive been spanked by Scooby's, I have no shame in that!

2,

Why am I on this board?, well I post on a few boards but I found this thread a very good one so decided to post - sorry!

And as said before, I understand that people cant justify the expense of an M3 for the performance it deleivers when a tuned Scooby performs the same / better for under half the price.

I didnt buy my M3 purely for performance, I bought it for alot of reasons. I did look at the WRX a few years back but the interior scared me away!, I do ALOT of miles and theres nothign nicer than big comfy leather seats with armrest and Cruise blah blah blah, If I were buying a car purely for perfromance the M3 would not be my choice, I would be looking at Porkers. The M3 is everything I neeed in a car and its fast, and when you say that 99.9% of BMW drivers just get them for the status then Iam affraid your wrong.

Alot of Scooby drivers have agreed that the BMW build quality far supasses that of a Subaru, because they are built to soak up long distances on autobahns, not thrash through woods at 100mph!!. I used to think the same about BMWs until I first drove one, Ive been hooked ever since, and whilst other cars are certainly faster there isnt much at the price that offers everything the M3 does in such quality.

If its pissing you off that an M3 owner is posting here then I shant bother!, how childish!. Its all been pretty interesting so far and its nice to talk to Scooby owners instead of seing them in my rear view mirror!!

[Edited by TomM - 8/20/2002 2:11:04 PM]

uxg

Good post TomM. I for one don't mind M3 owners posting on here. But I agree with some of the points you made. The two cars are designed to do different things. I just get pissed when people try to tell me that an M3 is quicker\handles better than a any Subaru. That is not what it was designed for. The M3 is certainly no slouch and faster than probably 90% of cars and for the money it is certainly very good value when you compare its general all round abilty but it isn't as focused as an Sti and certainly isn't quicker or better at going round corners Don't forget the M3 weighs about 1.5 tonnes. I would certainly think it would be quicker than a standard or mildly modded UK Subaru but don't forget it costs 40K.

It was designed to be a jack of all trades and a comfortable cruiser (albeit quite a fast one) and it does this job very well.

An Sti is designed to go really fast and corner like it's on rails and thats what it does. I don't go pretending that my car is a great motorway cruiser or that it's really comfortable to drive. I just know that for the price I paid for it, it puts a lot of so called performace cars to shame in acceleration and handling

LG John

I have no problem with owners of other cars posting hear as long as the respect what this BBS was designed for which for the most part people do.

There are a number of scoobynet regulars that drive other cars that make interesting/informative posts. It's always useful to have these other drivers around to ask questions of as well.

Want to know about Saxo's ask me or saxovts2000
Volvos.....Mark Jackson
106's.....Rich D
172's.....Senior AP's brother or bluenose 172
M3's.........list is endless
Skoda RS.....list is endless
You get the picture!

NDT

quote
If its pissing you off that an M3 owner is posting here then I shant bother!, how childish!.
end quote

TomM, don't lecture others on being childish while throwing out BS about people who wear a shift and tie having no *****!
meaningless!

ice man

This board just seems to be getting full of stuff like this.
People need to realise that there are cars out there that will leave a scoob standing. Have scoobynetters turned into a group of people with their head in the sand and won't listen to the facts

TomM

Read it - "in general"

I wear a shirt and tie to work!

God what have I started!!!. I will leave you boys to it, cant be arsed to be explaining myself every 5 minutes.

camk

What bollox, BMW's not worth it all about pose factor and rep mobiles. My ****, BMW has some of the best engineering capability in the world,in 2001 they were rated about 15th in the world for engineering and innovation(30 or 40 places above Porsche) not just including bloody automotive engineering firms either. Don't let petty jealousy or your prejudiced opinions of what you drive blind you to the abilities of these cars and the Engineering 'Leadership' and 'Development' provided by them as a firm.
There is more to owning a car than the straightline 'Performance' , your 323 v RA description is crazy , ask yourself this, whats the 323 v RA depreciation, petrol, insurance and safety factors and then weigh it against the performance difference.
Too many folks on here got scoop tunnel vision. BTW I had an Sti and today I drive a 996 C4 and a BMW 523. The BMW has been without doubt the best and most reliable continent buster in all weathers that I could ever have driven, given the choice of only 1 of the 3 after my experiences I'd take the BMW as its better for the type of driving I'm doing, but that's just my requirements. Is it better than a P1, probably for driving 800 miles to the South of France. If you don't need a headache and have 2 kids.

Cheers
Cammy

[Edited by camk - 8/20/2002 3:13:54 PM]

Pavlo

I don't mind who posts on here, more the merrier (well mostly), it's a free world. But I do see some, not TomM it has to be said, that like to post here, discuss here, but remind people how superior their car is blah blah.

I wonder, do Porsche owners go on the BMW M boards and rant about their cars? I bet they do!

Paul

camk

Pavlo,
I think you'll find most non scoob owners on here have been at sometime an owner and have moved on automotively(for whatever reason). Many(like me) still remain on the BBS as its a good forum(recently getting a bit too boy racer for me).
If you look at any of these threads they usually start with Scoob is the bestest,fastest,spunkiest and I ripped a guy in a Ferrari at the lights last night type of statement.
If you look at the board for other makes it just goes down the chain, I just wish people could enjoy cars and bikes or whatever and appreciate that there are 'Other choices' and that your current mode of transport may not be the best(for eveyone's circumstances).
In regard to the current thread. Its likely most people on here have never driven a bloody M3, so how can they comment. I include myself in that as I've never been lucky enough to drive one, however I would like to, now does that make me a bad driver or a bottle merchant if I did it with a shirt and tie on ....FFS

Regards
Cammy

[Edited by camk - 8/20/2002 3:26:05 PM]

Jon1T

If someone offered me the choice of a new M3 or Sti - I'd take the M3 any day of the week....

(Jeremy Clarkson voice)

.......and have the sti for weekends.

Claudius

If an M3 were faster than my Evo, I would own an M3.

camk

If Claudius had an M3 and I had 1 I'd chop it in and get an Evo

scoobynutta555

If i was going on a 800 mile trip id get a plane.

E46M3

This is very amusing all this.........

brum brum

LG John

Ice man I don't deny that there are a lot of faster cars than scoobies and even my modded scooby. That said, if you take percentages, I see very few cars in a day that I think, 'hmmmm, he could thrash me'

You say a lot of cars can leave a scooby standing....not really IMO. To leave a car 'standing' you need to make it feel like it's going backwards. My scooby cannot do this to my old VTS but could to a VTR or similar warm hatches which take almost twice as long to reach 100mph. Therefore, to do the same to a scooby you'd need a car IMO that could hit 100 in about 7-8 seconds which puts you into TVR Cerbera, Ferrari 360, 911 Turbo, Caterham R500 territory. Lots of cars are faster but to decimate even a standard scooby you have to be driving something pretty bloody quick.

Not played with a new M3 in the scooby but I'd expect to be 'comfortably' beaten in a straight-line drag.

K9VYN [Kevin W]

I love the new M3 - makes the older ones look a bit flimsy and weak! And they certainly look like they can do the business when asked to. I think they also sound sweet too!

Unfortunately I can't afford one, not that I want to change from my Scoob - I love it! And I also love the boxer engine note, especially through a fully de-catted system.

Perhaps if I'd stopped spending money modding and enjoying my Scoob, I'd have a £40K - £70K car..seriously! That has never entered my mind - up until this day despite my appreciation for other cars, the Scoob (classic shapes particularly) is my personal fancy!

Its very fast, its very safe, its very eyecatching, its got a great owners club and if an M3 or any other quality high performance or supercar driver chooses to show me what his car can do.. I take it as a compliment - he/she must respect the Scoob, what other reason is there for bothering?

Right then, off out to pick on some Novas

Kevin

PS What about Z3 Coupes? Aren't they supposed to be amazingly quick?







[Edited by K9VYN [Kevin W] - 8/20/2002 7:14:57 PM]

camk

Scoobynutta,
If your going to go to the lengths of getting a plane you could borrow Co55ies Sierra, similar BHP to a Tornado GR1 I heard

Cammy

Phil M

E46 M3 came 2nd to 290k supercar in EVO car of the year, beating Lambo, EVO 7, TVR etc etc etc... Its not all speed etc its also driver enjoyment!

nuff said

catflap

Agree with saxoboy

My westy does 0-100 in 8.8 (ooo and it handles just a little, and it stopps likes like, well dont swallow your toung)

You’ll soon learn to like the taste of fly’s

HEHEH

BUT you cant take 4 people in it, and it has no roof. yeh i bought a 300 quid banger for that boring stuff

Fast and the furious has affected just a little too much, wana race? get on the track

The road is no place for inexperienced drivers to be thrashing their cars, and i dont care how long you’ve been driving, and if you drive on track, then you should know better than to race on the road.

Not boring, just not boy racer.

Face it , if you care that much about how fast you are, then you should be a racing driver, and if your not,.stop wining about who’s car is faster than who’s, coz my dad is bigger than your dad)

Chins

This type of thread is why I love Scoobynet.

I always go through by Jap car month followed by German car. None of them are perfect and as others say we all have different priorities.

Without boring everyone again Ive had 7 Scoobies. The last being a UK STI that replaced my E46 M3 SMG. Both have their strengths. Performance was the M3 all the way. Ride quality the STI. Looks and interior the M3. Treat it like your bitch the STI . Respect on the road and looks very equal.

Most M3 owners are true enthusiasts IMHO. There are some *****, but nowadays the Scooby demonstrates some of the worst driving on the road as well. What I have witnessed is that early models seem to take over from the 306 in having their front fogs on all the time. Sad but true.

Still waiting for the perfect car.

Jonathan

Audi Station Wagon Driver

chrisp

I think some of you should have read what I wrote rather than jumping down my throat.

I wouldnt pay 40K for an M3 and even one M3 driver agreed with me I would be looking at a 911 or a second hand Ferrari.

I do think a lot of people by BMW as status symbols maybe not neccessarily M3's but this lesser engine models 318,320. Any one know the % of M3 sold as a total of all 3 series sales not many I would guess. Yes they are a good car ans well built but a lot of people buy on badge and dont even test drive them. The amount of times I have said to people "how do you find the RWD ?" and the answer came back "are they ?"

The 323 was an example of what I wanted to pay for a motor I didnt want an M1.5 so if I went down the BMW route it would have to be a 323 or a second hand motor. I didnt want a second one (thats why I dont have a 911 either ) and what in the BMW range I am going to get for 22K ?????? I dont do a huge mileage in the scoob and its a fun car to me so performance was top of my list and teh 323 maybe better on fuel and insurance but so what, I wanted performance.

I dont dislike M3s and I am not trying to get rid of BMW owners off here, the more the merry but I just tried to explain why I wouldnt want one.

I give up on this one .

Cheers

ChrisP

barry_white69

"The Subaru can do everything handling wise an M3 can do only easier for the average driver. Some people may see this as a bad thing but I see this as the Subaru being techincially superior in the handling department."

I'm afraid I must disagree. There is nothing technically superior about making a car easy to drive fast otherwise all those RWD supercars would be technically inferior to an Impreza. They were simply designed for different jobs. The Impreza has a good 4WD system and made it big as a rally car partly because of this. Most racing cars go for RWD 'purity' as it is good on track and is seen as being more difficult to drive fast thus differentiating the great drivers from the merely good. They are simply different styles, not better.

dazzaTypeR

POC

How can you say...

(Also, the E36 EVO and E46 M3 with a half decent driver would leave you in the bends, so none of this "but wait till they get to a corner" rubbish! At the end of the day, it is a peice of pi55 to drive a subaru fast, the scooby flatters the driver and makes him/her feel like superman (as has been demonstrated))!

I think you'll find it's a peice of pi55 to drive a 350bhp car and every piece of driver aid technology ever invented than it is to drive a 4WD and no traction DSC etc... at least with the driver aids you just nail it and it will sort it's self out gauranteed, never seen anyone drifting an M without it having to sort it's self out afterwards

How often do you drive with all you computer aids off.