POC

Hi Dazza, first off I would like to make it clear that I dont have an E46 M3.

Driving a subaru fast is a peice of pi55, that is why so many people get themselves in trouble, they push the envelope a little too far, lift on a fast corner and they are toast!

I have never known a car that flatters the driver as much as a subaru!

Personaly, driving a subaru at warp 9 can be acheived by any joe bloggs off the street (as has been proved in many other threads), Now, piloting a 350bhp RWD car is much more of an involving task, driver aids or not.........

I always drive with DSC switched off

ice man

Saxoboy, you don't need to be driving a super sports car to out run a scoob. I agree with Poc, anyone can jump behind the wheel of an impreza a and floor it.
A decent driver in a fairly decent car will give you a damn good run for your money.
Don't get me wrong I do like my impreza but I don't walk around thinking I have the fastest car on the road and that no one will keep up with me, modded or not.

CraigH

What a load of 8ollox

Dazza,

It's easier to drive a RWD 350hp with driver aids than a 4wd without? Eh? Since when if you're referring to Scoobs? Do most Scoobs have traction problems? No. The hardest thing about driving a Scoob is to stop the understeer - which they all suffer from no matter what you've done to them. Scoobs grip well but don't handle well in the true sense. Hence why a pro driver in an Elise (and how many of you have beaten these on road and track) will always lap faster than a Scoob on track.

As to M3 vs Scoob blah blah blah....

There is one fundamental engineering difference - you could sit all day on the rev limit in an M3 - how long will Scoobs, no matter what flavour, do that for? Not exactly a worthwhile thing to do bu it'll show the differences in quality of engineering.

LG John

Ice, totally agree, there are many faster cars in a straight line and even through the bends but IMO there aren't many cars that can make the subaru feel slow in a striaght line......that needs BIG power!

NDT

have driven a normally aspirated Forester for 2 days now, instead of my modified WRX.
It's a better car....





...in terms of ride, refinement, low speed driver involvement, and a few other things.
get real. this has turned into a ridiculous thread. there is no definitive answer to "which is better, car A or car B?"

Having driven the last model M3 and owned an STi4 and a current WRX, I can't say which is the better car - they all do different things in different ways.

and why do we have to have these ego trips along the lines of "my car's got no electronics, so I'm a better driver?"

TomM

They are completely different cars in completely different price ranges, not a fair comparison really.

Both are great cars in thier own area.

Colin Berry

You are having a laugh?

"Anyway at 120 I pulled over and waited for him to go past (I'm not a boy racer) and followed on behind him - but unlike Scoobyspanner I didn't get toasted - so either he wasn't trying or they aren't that quick! "

What is it with Scooby owners? Does the brain get wasted after ownership?

Last week I had a McLaren F1 behind me, I pull over at 30 but he didn't overtake. Either he wasn't trying or they are not that fast!

TomM

Get ready for another 20 pages!!!, and lets just pray that co55ie doesnt get wind of people talking about cars that arnt as fast as his BOEING Saphire Cosworth!!

NDT

TomM, sorry about my overreactive post yesterday (had a v bad day)......

TomM

No worries, it was a little provoked!!

Kept it interesting!

E46M3

The Scooby (in all its many forms) and the E46 M3 have been designed with completely different jobs in mind, for completely different target audiences and by companies with vastly different approaches to building a motor car.

They are different and go about the job at hand (i.e. getting from point A to point B) in a completely different manner. For what the cars have been designed to do it is arguable that they are the best of their very different breeds, and achieve what they set out to achieve in a completely different, though no less effective manner.

The M3 is a classic four seat touring car with a big powerful (both in BHP and torque) straight six engine with a classic front engine real wheel drive configuration providing a broad spread of power across the rev range with an excellent handling/comfort compromise.

The Scooby (again in all it forms) has the virtue of 4-wheel drive for excellent traction (and traction is completely different to grip or road holding by the way) is inexpensive to buy and run, and provides four seats and plenty of room for luggage. It provides excellent power but in a completely different manner to an E46 M3, and this will always be the case with a four cylinder compared to a six, and with a turbo compared to a normally aspirated engine. Throw in four-wheel drive against rear-wheel drive, and you begin to see how the characters of both cars are completely different.

For me I wanted what the E46 M3 offered and for most the people on here you wanted the Scooby for what it offered you and that’s what a free country offers us, choice!

Now as to which is faster who can tell, as the variables effecting performance vary so much from day to day, car to car, road to road and driver to driver. Many people on here, though in no way all, think they are the best, quickest and most experienced drivers on the planet who can push the envelope of their car to the limit. Take it from me your not, and neither am I.

Its also worth stating that the road is not the place to race and for those who are not yet initiated in the enjoyment of the track day then you should give it a try. When some guy in a 1600cc Caterham or Westfield embarrasses you it won’t take long for you to realise that any road car, no matter how fast or with how much BHP, is a match for something designed with a different job in mind.

Having said that of course, put the 1600cc Caterham or Westfield in a straight line race against my E46 M3 or your Scooby (again, in any of its forms) and once it gets to 90MPH he would not stand a chance, but then that’s not what they are designed for and as I said at the start completely different jobs in mind, for completely different target audiences and by companies with vastly different approaches to building a motor car.

Now I hope this is not seen as bate but this discussion as to which is fastest will go on and on with no winner because its an argument which can not be won. Enjoy your cars for what they are………………..different!

HM

LG John

scooby......inexpensive to run!!!!!! Your wrong on that one I'm afraid!! These things are a b@stard to run, fuel, servicing, tyre wear, depreciation, etc are all a nightmare!! Then there are the mods that 'have' to be done on top.

Do you get treated like **** by other road users when driving the M3? I can't believe the amount of abuse I get from other drivers when just tottling along minding my own business

Jon1T

Colin - it helps if you read the post. The gist of what I was saying is that accerlerating from 70ish to 120ish I was suprised that the M3 didn't catch me as quickly as i thought.

Once I reached 120 I pulled over and let the guy past. This was a bit of fun on a clear road and was over in seconds.

What I am not saying is any of the following:

1/ Scoobs are faster
2/This was an exhaustive scientific study of Scoob vs M3 accleration conducted at MIRA
3/ I am a better driver (though I do hold a Nat B race licence and have previously raced cars so I can drive a little bit)
4/ M3's are rubbish

dhorwich

Why dont we talk about the most expensive/fastest scoob, that way we might get somewhere... i.e the price of the BMW would make it better in many ways why else would it cost so much...

Whats the fastest scoob...??? would it be the WRX STI type R, would this car keep up with a E46 M3, i mean they have been tested to 60 by various mags at around 4.3 secs and with a 0-60 figure like this it must be fast to 100mph...?

Does anyone know how much an STI type r costs new..?? bet is a fair way off £40K..

Someone mentioned being able to thrash the M3 to redline all day, have you seen this: some interesting things, so they can be compared in some way..

http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm

Dan...

ScoobySpanner

Pasted this from a guy on the BM3W.co.uk forum:

I went out for a meal with the wife last week and when we came out of the pub, my M3 was surrounded by an organised Scooby meet.
Good group of guys, with a very healthy interest in the new M3.

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=122528

Posts: 232 | From: Staffs, England | Registered: Feb 2002


[Edited by ScoobySpanner - 8/21/2002 6:22:11 PM]

co55ie

The E46 engine is not as good as many of youu believe many of the castings are pretty poor quality. BMW will not let and blame anything and everything including Petrol quality. The simple answer is build a robust engine in the first place and not try and weedle out of it. Whay buy into the clever marketing even the bloke in a 31i thinks he drives a prestigious untamable road weapon a syndrome now filtering through to many scooby owners who are clearly going to upgrade to a 318 bavarian beast in the near future.
TOM I may try strapping a boeing engine to my roof and have allready purchased a deluxe halfords roof rack to mount the new engine on. I am still puzzled as to where I am going store the kerosene though

chrisp

Yep as you can see I was at that scoob meet and the bloke was great and even emailed me after saying how he was impressed with our cars and how it had been good meeting us. Crypt was there with his evo and they was a bit of banter but all lighthearted fun. People get behind a keyboard and start giving it large . I think it hilarious that poeple read what they want to into these threads and people take them so seriously what are they trying to do make us all go out and buy evos, skylines, civic type r, skodas RS, M3, RS4, LOL yep if you like .

E46M3

Response to Saxo Boy
Running costs are relative our kid, and I’d be happy to swap tyre bills with you if you're up for it? Also the depreciation, which up until now has been so strong on the E46 M3, is changing though servicing is pretty good.

I don't get treated like s**t on the road really, but I do tend to attract people wanting to race me quite a lot. When I park I tend to be worried that a few people may want to engrave their name on my bonnet, you know, just to show me whose boss.

And by the way your posts seem well measured and on the ball, keep it up our kid!

Response to dhorwich
You seem to have missed my point completely as you still insist on comparing the performance of the 2 cars, why do you feel the need our kid, why??

As an E46 M3 owner I have seen the website you keep bringing up time and time again and yes it’s a worry but I have to say I have lost no sleep over it and mine is running fine, and I still fail to see the point your making??

Response to ScoobySpanner
It was you that got me onto this bloody site and maybe we should hook up for a run in one another’s motors, seems we are local to one another….

None response to Co55ie
Having seen some of your other posts I won’t waste my breath our kid!

Response to chrisp
Most E46 M3 owners are like you, car lovers who drink beer, love women, drive fast and have fun and your post makes so much sense, people do take this all to serious.

Enjoy your cars and be safe!

HM

dhorwich

I was just looking at it from both sides, but like you said they are cars that are in different sectors of the car market and cant really be compared, but things like performance can be compared.... I would deffinitly have an M3 if i could afford it dont get me wrong...

A bloke across the road who won the lottery (no joke) bought one and its very nice especially the wheels...!!
Cant you get the 155mph restrictor taken off.... or would that be silly for the licence that is..

Dan



[Edited by dhorwich - 8/21/2002 9:37:23 PM]

E46M3

Yes you can compare brute figures but in the real world they mean nothing and (so I say again) that’s the point I am making.

If you want to use your own example you talk about the “most expensive/fastest scoob”, which shows how you need to start changing the goal posts to fit your argument. In that case lets go for the most expensive/fastest M3, but then I too would be proving nothing. The cars are different and that’s where it ends.

On your other point you can have them derestricted and I am told the E46 M3 will top 180mph if you do so, which in my book makes it quite quick.

It may also interest you to know I used to own a 22B and have an R500 as my track day car………

I have no axe to grind.

HM

dhorwich

180mph...

Does it look like this...




Dan

TomM

The E46 M3 engine cant be that bad, didnt it win engine of the year 2001???. and the X5 4.4 V8 lump got it this year??

There has been an E46 tested at 186mph, I read it somewhere - slow then!

As for engine reliabilty, yes there have been a few deaths but this engine is tuned to death, as has been said, BMW motorsport cant squeeze much more out of it!

The E36 had alot of dead engines when that arived in 92/93 - I dont think anyone is surprised. If it happens then BMW give you a fleet M3 until yours has been sorted so its no real hardship and is rare.

co55ie - good luck with the Jet engine!!!

LG John

Hey E46M3.........stop turning the traction control off, yer tyres might last a little longer

When I was a lad the M3 EVO was my favourite car and I wanted one sooo bad (but couldn't drive!). When I bought the scooby I was aware that I could have one but now IMO they look very outdated and crap and hence I really want the E46.....but can't afford it. A never ending spiral of hope........maybe one day.......maybe one day

TomM

Saxoboy......."E36 M3 EVO looks Crap"

Come on now, yes the E36 does look a little tired and dated but it doesnt look crap!, be fair!!, with those big fat wheels and the M stance, it looks mean!!!

Saxo's look crap!, when they are left alone they are nice little motors but when they have those silly bodykits, ironing boards stuck on the roof and Ive even seen one with 4 exhausts!! now thats crap!

LG John

Fair point some Saxo's do look crap. The E36 looked great until the new one came out and then I realised just how outdated it was. We can argue styling all day because there are no facts to styling everyone has different tastes! There are no doubt people that would argue the E36 looks better then the 46, strange as that would seem to me!

TomM

I know what your saying matey!!

The E46 does make the E36 look dated, styling is indeed a personal thing, keeps us all amused seing how wrong some people get it!!

[Edited by TomM - 8/22/2002 1:01:52 PM]

[Edited by TomM - 8/22/2002 1:02:12 PM]