Scooby Power Outputs
25 August 2002, 09:56 AM
#31
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Wacky, a "guarantee" is no use when your engine let's go anyway 
"But you guaranteed" etc... you will then get a story about what you did wrong to make it let go... or even a shrug.
Unless, and this is my point, you spend some time in learning the parameters that make a car go fast (and reliable), and then try to find out if the potential "tuner" is familiar with them.
You can still get shafted, mind you, but it does give you a headstart. Spending some time in drivetrain, reading through 22B and I-club, and even for a non-techie you see some "patterns" emerging. Example: tuning to get a 9 %CO mixture will be a tad safer (but less performant) than mapping between 5 and 7 % CO - all other parameters being the same. Advancing ignition just to the point of det and then turning it back a notch will give you higher power, but also a potential failure in other conditions (heatsoak from standing at the lights, then rev the nuts of it)...
So a lot depends on the safety margin you or the tuner will want to keep (mostly resulting in less power than you could have)
In many respects the UK is still home of the best car engineers on this planet, but I doubt they spend much time on "street" tuning. They build race or rally cars, i.e. cars with a constant monitoring, rebuilding/servicing etc ... and ... a big budget.
People want 400 BHP and put them on track, but also put in cheap oil every 10.000 miles ... or trash their car from cold ... no tuner can give a guarantee in those circumstances.
Even for lower BHP tricks, you see that the potential "tunee" (
) doesn't want to fork out for a few meters (it should be reliable, so I don't want to /have to monitor it 
)
Some people want to say : "I give my car to company X, close my eyes, and I pick it up 5 days later with 100 BHP more". It can be done probably, but I think it's very rare. Actively participating in the tuning process is both a good idea and fun, as it tends to take the "voodoo" away from the tuning as well.
Maybe it's all an economy thing, and the demand for full on 400 BHP reliable Scoobs for a realistic budget is still rather small ?
"But you guaranteed" etc... you will then get a story about what you did wrong to make it let go... or even a shrug.Unless, and this is my point, you spend some time in learning the parameters that make a car go fast (and reliable), and then try to find out if the potential "tuner" is familiar with them.
You can still get shafted, mind you, but it does give you a headstart. Spending some time in drivetrain, reading through 22B and I-club, and even for a non-techie you see some "patterns" emerging. Example: tuning to get a 9 %CO mixture will be a tad safer (but less performant) than mapping between 5 and 7 % CO - all other parameters being the same. Advancing ignition just to the point of det and then turning it back a notch will give you higher power, but also a potential failure in other conditions (heatsoak from standing at the lights, then rev the nuts of it)...
So a lot depends on the safety margin you or the tuner will want to keep (mostly resulting in less power than you could have)
In many respects the UK is still home of the best car engineers on this planet, but I doubt they spend much time on "street" tuning. They build race or rally cars, i.e. cars with a constant monitoring, rebuilding/servicing etc ... and ... a big budget.
People want 400 BHP and put them on track, but also put in cheap oil every 10.000 miles ... or trash their car from cold ... no tuner can give a guarantee in those circumstances.
Even for lower BHP tricks, you see that the potential "tunee" (
) doesn't want to fork out for a few meters (it should be reliable, so I don't want to /have to monitor it )Some people want to say : "I give my car to company X, close my eyes, and I pick it up 5 days later with 100 BHP more". It can be done probably, but I think it's very rare. Actively participating in the tuning process is both a good idea and fun, as it tends to take the "voodoo" away from the tuning as well.
Maybe it's all an economy thing, and the demand for full on 400 BHP reliable Scoobs for a realistic budget is still rather small ?
25 August 2002, 10:12 AM
#32
WB
I'm from the R19KET/Trout tank (sorry, poor, very poor attempt at a pun) of tuning, it is possible to create very drivable and reliable cars with a fairly modest outlay.
Until a few very unfourtunate incidents recently
there were several scoobs, including my own, out there running in the over 340 brake/300lbft catagory on standard internals be they uk or sti.
My car has been in this state of tune for over 9 months now, it's used every day, goes on track and even to drags (well 1, and I really don't like doing them...) to use Trout's definition it is genuinly quick
it is also a piston slapper and has been since 60k miles when I/we started working on it in earnest. It's now got 85k on the clock it's still going stong and, touch wood, hasn't munched anything more than a little oil, a lot of fuel and a thoroughly overworked standard clutch (which I replaced as a precaution, and saved myself an iminent failure 
). I will go internal, possibly soon, I'm always thinking I'm running on borrowed time, but I'm also always looking for that bit more 
what way I'll go (2, 2.2 or 2.5 litre) depends on funds/time/necessity
This car was built with a lot of help and advice from people who have posted on this thread (genuflect's in the direction of Bushy) and others.
Now I'll admit being of a technical nature I'm probably at advantage on things mechanical - never trust me with a tuning module or a stanley knife though and I've saved a lot of money by my diy approach to the car. It also means that I look after it (changing the oil for an expensive synthetic every 5000 miles or after a severe ragging at a track) and I'm very aware that bouncing off the rev limiter, ragging it from cold or after it's been standing in traffic will destroy it.
Going back on topic though, at the moment there isn't a complete one stop shop for scoob tuning in the uk as far as I am concerned, there have been a few who claim to be but I'm personally not convinced...maybe this will change, soon.
In the meantime learn from the current crop of 'amateurs' who can help you acheive your goals and save you £££££'s ($$$$$ or A$$$$$) in the process...
[Edited by Tim W - 8/25/2002 10:19:36 AM]
I'm from the R19KET/Trout tank (sorry, poor, very poor attempt at a pun) of tuning, it is possible to create very drivable and reliable cars with a fairly modest outlay.
Until a few very unfourtunate incidents recently
there were several scoobs, including my own, out there running in the over 340 brake/300lbft catagory on standard internals be they uk or sti. My car has been in this state of tune for over 9 months now, it's used every day, goes on track and even to drags (well 1, and I really don't like doing them...) to use Trout's definition it is genuinly quick
it is also a piston slapper and has been since 60k miles when I/we started working on it in earnest. It's now got 85k on the clock it's still going stong and, touch wood, hasn't munched anything more than a little oil, a lot of fuel and a thoroughly overworked standard clutch (which I replaced as a precaution, and saved myself an iminent failure ). I will go internal, possibly soon, I'm always thinking I'm running on borrowed time, but I'm also always looking for that bit more what way I'll go (2, 2.2 or 2.5 litre) depends on funds/time/necessity This car was built with a lot of help and advice from people who have posted on this thread (genuflect's in the direction of Bushy) and others.
Now I'll admit being of a technical nature I'm probably at advantage on things mechanical - never trust me with a tuning module or a stanley knife though
and I've saved a lot of money by my diy approach to the car. It also means that I look after it (changing the oil for an expensive synthetic every 5000 miles or after a severe ragging at a track) and I'm very aware that bouncing off the rev limiter, ragging it from cold or after it's been standing in traffic will destroy it.Going back on topic though, at the moment there isn't a complete one stop shop for scoob tuning in the uk as far as I am concerned, there have been a few who claim to be but I'm personally not convinced...maybe this will change, soon.
In the meantime learn from the current crop of 'amateurs'
who can help you acheive your goals and save you £££££'s ($$$$$ or A$$$$$) in the process...[Edited by Tim W - 8/25/2002 10:19:36 AM]
25 August 2002, 11:03 AM
#33
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While reading a thread on I-Club re- one of the rigoli motors. Someone in the US, bought a complete engine and transmission from them, and they were saying it only cost aboutAUS $ 45,000
Now even considering postage, and VAT etc, for a 600bhp+ motor and transmission, that seems like a bargain ( assuming the motor was complete with ALL ancilliaries )
It ran low 10 sec 1/4's first time out. Surely a slightly lesser motor would be a little bit cheaper, and still worth the money, and then if need be, some plonker in the UK can fit it. There may still be no guarantee, but at least the builder has a reputation, second to none.
Trout, I know the ND Evo eats diffs, I was standing behind it a couple of weeks ago, when one broke.
When tuning cars, things break, its a simple fact, and there is no way round it. If it isnt the engine, then the clutch/driveshafts/gearbox, the list goes on. If you want power, you will have to learn some mechanical sypmathy, and it will help things last longer, but not forever.
Ive been throwing together DIY turbo motors for some time now, and lost count the number boxes/shafts/pistons etc Ive broke in the process. If you are tuning on a budget, just keeep on saving, for when it breaks. It will happen no matter how much you try and prevent it. Nothing lasts forever.
Now even considering postage, and VAT etc, for a 600bhp+ motor and transmission, that seems like a bargain ( assuming the motor was complete with ALL ancilliaries )
It ran low 10 sec 1/4's first time out. Surely a slightly lesser motor would be a little bit cheaper, and still worth the money, and then if need be, some plonker in the UK can fit it. There may still be no guarantee, but at least the builder has a reputation, second to none.
Trout, I know the ND Evo eats diffs, I was standing behind it a couple of weeks ago, when one broke.
When tuning cars, things break, its a simple fact, and there is no way round it. If it isnt the engine, then the clutch/driveshafts/gearbox, the list goes on. If you want power, you will have to learn some mechanical sypmathy, and it will help things last longer, but not forever.
Ive been throwing together DIY turbo motors for some time now, and lost count the number boxes/shafts/pistons etc Ive broke in the process. If you are tuning on a budget, just keeep on saving, for when it breaks. It will happen no matter how much you try and prevent it. Nothing lasts forever.
25 August 2002, 01:48 PM
#34
Hi Guys;
Evil, I take your point re guarantee. I suppose what I did not make explicit in this thread is that I fully understand that seeking a guarantee is a 2 way street. If you create something with inherent fragility because its running at, say 120% of its design parameters, you can't expect it to be unbreakable if you flog the thing to death. My issue on guarantee is from the other side of the fence, ie not letting a tuner off the hook because they did not play the game at a proper design, build, etc, and as you say, end up shafted after they have taken your hard earned £25K off you!
With regard to the possible lack of demand re street tuning I believe this is a classic chicken and egg situ: no one is going to want to spend the kind of money we are talking about without some guarantee (that word again) that the tuner or tuners know what they are doing and can/will deliver. IMHO until the tuning industry start the process of providing proof, verification that they can do what they say they can, coupled with transparency and (yes, here we go again) some guarantees, then you will find sensible people like me super hesitant at taking, what in effect becomes a gamble. I don't like gambling, not one little bit, not with £25K of my hard earned money anyway!!
Tim W, sounds like you are some way toward achieving big power, spread torque, matched to real world driveability without being in hoc to the devil. Do you want to email me offline to talk about what you have achieved/where you might be going next?
Stevieturbo, again take your point about planning for and accepting breakables. However the emphasis of my points is not about this aspect but about getting what you ask and pay for from a tuner without, as someone put it, getting mechanically shafted in the process. Its about avoiding those pitfalls, finding someone technically able to deliver, and able to offer some gurantee around what is being delivered, all previous caveats noted, but not necessarily accepted (no offence meant, BTW)!!
My guess is anyone would be pretty cheesed off if an architect built one a fine, seemingly robust house, at great cost, promising the earth, then one finds out that it falls over in the first autumn winds (sorry, I'm bad at analogies, but you get my drift). If you had heard of someone in that position but you wanted to go down the same route of fine house, etc, etc, the first thing you would do before embarking on a serious cost venture would be to look for.........guarantees!
Evil, I take your point re guarantee. I suppose what I did not make explicit in this thread is that I fully understand that seeking a guarantee is a 2 way street. If you create something with inherent fragility because its running at, say 120% of its design parameters, you can't expect it to be unbreakable if you flog the thing to death. My issue on guarantee is from the other side of the fence, ie not letting a tuner off the hook because they did not play the game at a proper design, build, etc, and as you say, end up shafted after they have taken your hard earned £25K off you!
With regard to the possible lack of demand re street tuning I believe this is a classic chicken and egg situ: no one is going to want to spend the kind of money we are talking about without some guarantee (that word again) that the tuner or tuners know what they are doing and can/will deliver. IMHO until the tuning industry start the process of providing proof, verification that they can do what they say they can, coupled with transparency and (yes, here we go again) some guarantees, then you will find sensible people like me super hesitant at taking, what in effect becomes a gamble. I don't like gambling, not one little bit, not with £25K of my hard earned money anyway!!
Tim W, sounds like you are some way toward achieving big power, spread torque, matched to real world driveability without being in hoc to the devil. Do you want to email me offline to talk about what you have achieved/where you might be going next?
Stevieturbo, again take your point about planning for and accepting breakables. However the emphasis of my points is not about this aspect but about getting what you ask and pay for from a tuner without, as someone put it, getting mechanically shafted in the process. Its about avoiding those pitfalls, finding someone technically able to deliver, and able to offer some gurantee around what is being delivered, all previous caveats noted, but not necessarily accepted (no offence meant, BTW)!!
My guess is anyone would be pretty cheesed off if an architect built one a fine, seemingly robust house, at great cost, promising the earth, then one finds out that it falls over in the first autumn winds (sorry, I'm bad at analogies, but you get my drift).
If you had heard of someone in that position but you wanted to go down the same route of fine house, etc, etc, the first thing you would do before embarking on a serious cost venture would be to look for.........guarantees!
25 August 2002, 02:34 PM
#35
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big replies in this thread, mines short
evo6 gsr + RC stage 3 ,cost 4.5k = 387bhp at PE, 298bhp at the wheels at gforce. also the graphs are swwwwweeeet
im sure peter may oblige with his graph posting ability
cheers
evo6 gsr + RC stage 3 ,cost 4.5k = 387bhp at PE, 298bhp at the wheels at gforce. also the graphs are swwwwweeeet
im sure peter may oblige with his graph posting ability
cheers
26 August 2002, 06:29 PM
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My engine cost so far is around £12,000 including new exhaust. The engine was totally stripped remachined repainted etc etc and looks like new better than new. I still need a few bits to finish it off.
The engine has a full one year comprehensive warranty I have had no problems with it at all apart from my old exhaust system.
The cossie and skyline engines were seriously over engineered in the first place so higher outputs are more easy to obtain than on the scooby and evo as more strengthening work is required the cost is really the prohibitive factor which is why i personally didnt go down this rroad.
The engine has a full one year comprehensive warranty I have had no problems with it at all apart from my old exhaust system.
The cossie and skyline engines were seriously over engineered in the first place so higher outputs are more easy to obtain than on the scooby and evo as more strengthening work is required the cost is really the prohibitive factor which is why i personally didnt go down this rroad.
26 August 2002, 06:47 PM
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The spec of the 714bhp skyline is massive, probably running, it has certainly run ~750bhp on a different RR and it is probably good for over 800bhp if the boost is turned up... This car is owned by a skyline tuner rather than a customer, but there are 700bhp customer cars about (eg 'Rocket' Ronnie's).
I expect that this sort of spec would cost ~£30k in the UK, though cheaper if parts are sourced direct from Japan. Still certainly not cheap!
400bhp is sensibly priced in a skyline, even 550bhp can be achieved sensibly (ie under £10k), but really big power cost £££££
I expect that this sort of spec would cost ~£30k in the UK, though cheaper if parts are sourced direct from Japan. Still certainly not cheap!
400bhp is sensibly priced in a skyline, even 550bhp can be achieved sensibly (ie under £10k), but really big power cost £££££
26 August 2002, 07:17 PM
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co55ie,
mind you, Cossies need big power - cos as standard - even tho they run the same power as a standard Scoob - they were much slower. So you need at least 300bhp to get with the ballgame and 400 to start playing
Trout
mind you, Cossies need big power - cos as standard - even tho they run the same power as a standard Scoob - they were much slower. So you need at least 300bhp to get with the ballgame and 400 to start playing
Trout
26 August 2002, 07:23 PM
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wacky banana cool name !!!!!!
As I said the engine turbo etc etc etc is all better than new really with exception of the clutch the engine came with 12 months / 12,000 mile warranty for both parts and labour I have had some minor things done with no bother at all as the whole car was taken apart gearbox brakes suspension etc and I did initialy have a few very minor teething problems belt tensions etc which I suppose was to be expected . GGR didn't even flinch when I said I would be using the car for a few track days. Word of warning though they are not very fast LoL but do a good job. They do some cool stuff for scoobies too.
I have seen the spec of an evo that they built for an overseas customer this must have been a real weapon. You don't want to know the cost.
GGR offer sensible conversions in my opinion enhancing what is allready there which don't turn your car into an impracticle monster. I am very pleased with my own car and find their labour rates pretty reasonable cheaper than your local ford garage.
I also only run my engine at around 80 percent it bangs out about 440 brake but the internals were built to cope with around 540.
[Edited by co55ie - 8/26/2002 7:29:18 PM]
[Edited by co55ie - 8/26/2002 7:37:09 PM]
As I said the engine turbo etc etc etc is all better than new really with exception of the clutch the engine came with 12 months / 12,000 mile warranty for both parts and labour I have had some minor things done with no bother at all as the whole car was taken apart gearbox brakes suspension etc and I did initialy have a few very minor teething problems belt tensions etc which I suppose was to be expected . GGR didn't even flinch when I said I would be using the car for a few track days. Word of warning though they are not very fast LoL but do a good job. They do some cool stuff for scoobies too.
I have seen the spec of an evo that they built for an overseas customer this must have been a real weapon. You don't want to know the cost.
GGR offer sensible conversions in my opinion enhancing what is allready there which don't turn your car into an impracticle monster. I am very pleased with my own car and find their labour rates pretty reasonable cheaper than your local ford garage.
I also only run my engine at around 80 percent it bangs out about 440 brake but the internals were built to cope with around 540.
[Edited by co55ie - 8/26/2002 7:29:18 PM]
[Edited by co55ie - 8/26/2002 7:37:09 PM]
26 August 2002, 08:53 PM
#42
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wacky banana
having a quick read through the lengthy replies, and perhaps i misread, but the impression i got was that people generally think it costs the same to tune a scooby as an evo.
so the question i ask is this...
what will 4.5k get you on a scooby? flywheel figure and at the wheels figure?
having a quick read through the lengthy replies, and perhaps i misread, but the impression i got was that people generally think it costs the same to tune a scooby as an evo.
so the question i ask is this...
what will 4.5k get you on a scooby? flywheel figure and at the wheels figure?
26 August 2002, 09:39 PM
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Everyone seems to be banging on about the Norris Evo which is supposed to be untouchable. I had a look at the recent 10 of the best times and laughed when I saw it had been neaten by an escort cossie down the strip.
26 August 2002, 09:47 PM
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Spud, is £4.5 from Bog standard, or £4.5k + Cost of Stage 1 (exhaust + air filter etc)?
I think in the answer lies with Trout who got 346bhp for about that cost... But I think 387bhp was about what Craig H's engine ran at, can't remember the spec etc, but I'm sure it was more than £4.5k!
So lets say £4.5k in a scooby gets 340bhp, in an Evo 380bhp and in a skyline 450bhp, I suspect with those power differences there probably wouldn't be all that much in it ironically, scooby is ~1285kg, evo is ~1375kg and the Skyline is ~1530kg...
I think in the answer lies with Trout who got 346bhp for about that cost... But I think 387bhp was about what Craig H's engine ran at, can't remember the spec etc, but I'm sure it was more than £4.5k!
So lets say £4.5k in a scooby gets 340bhp, in an Evo 380bhp and in a skyline 450bhp, I suspect with those power differences there probably wouldn't be all that much in it ironically, scooby is ~1285kg, evo is ~1375kg and the Skyline is ~1530kg...
26 August 2002, 09:54 PM
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Everyone seems to be banging on about the Norris Evo which is supposed to be untouchable. I had a look at the recent 10 of the best times and laughed when I saw it had been neaten by an escort cossie down the strip.
[Edited by polarbearit - 8/26/2002 9:56:23 PM]
26 August 2002, 09:59 PM
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Well look at Andy.F - he got 304bhp at the wheels of £1k - plus all the labour of love
Althought mine produced 346bhp - for £4.5k - that was using a TMIC as a matter of principle. For the same money a different turbo and FMIC - probably the same money overall would produce at least 360bhp....still not 387bhp I agree - but even the Ralliart/PE specials running 1.9br didn't produce that much!
Call it a round £5k then I recking Scoobs and Evos could still produce similar power +/-5%
Trout
Althought mine produced 346bhp - for £4.5k - that was using a TMIC as a matter of principle. For the same money a different turbo and FMIC - probably the same money overall would produce at least 360bhp....still not 387bhp I agree - but even the Ralliart/PE specials running 1.9br didn't produce that much!
Call it a round £5k then I recking Scoobs and Evos could still produce similar power +/-5%
Trout
26 August 2002, 10:45 PM
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I think Andys car is one of a kind, but it does bring one thing to mind. Obviously it wont apply to everyone here, but for those who can. If you want to tune your car, and get good power outputs, choose the parts wisely ( there is a wealth of free advise here, which is of good quality ) and do most of the work yourself. That way, you have only yourself to blame if it goes wrong.
For those who have paid money to RR operators etc to modify their cars, how about, instead of complaining about people who have not produced the goods, lets name those in the industry who have, and who you would trust your car to.
They me be few, but there must be some out there. Getting the power out of these engines cant be that hard, if the right bits are chosen, then it should simply be a case of mapping it properly, which I believe is the key to releasing the power on any engine, regardless of bits.
Big turbo, fuel pump, cold air, bigger injectors if necessary, and well mapped ecu. Whats so hard about it?? Most internal engine upgrades wont make more horsepower ( unless bigger cc ) but they will make it more reliable hopefully.
For those who have paid money to RR operators etc to modify their cars, how about, instead of complaining about people who have not produced the goods, lets name those in the industry who have, and who you would trust your car to.
They me be few, but there must be some out there. Getting the power out of these engines cant be that hard, if the right bits are chosen, then it should simply be a case of mapping it properly, which I believe is the key to releasing the power on any engine, regardless of bits.
Big turbo, fuel pump, cold air, bigger injectors if necessary, and well mapped ecu. Whats so hard about it?? Most internal engine upgrades wont make more horsepower ( unless bigger cc ) but they will make it more reliable hopefully.
27 August 2002, 12:14 AM
#51
StevieT,
Good idea re naming tuners who have delivered rather than those that have not. Over to you please, guys.
Co55ie, have you thought of posting pictures of your car and RR graphs on here for us to look at? I assume by slow you mean GGR took their time on your build. If so, how much time?
Interesting point about running your car at 80%. Is that by choice, ie mechanical sympathy, or not, ie not sure how long your engine would survive at 100% (see my earlier comments re reliability & tuner guarantees).
Good idea re naming tuners who have delivered rather than those that have not. Over to you please, guys.
Co55ie, have you thought of posting pictures of your car and RR graphs on here for us to look at? I assume by slow you mean GGR took their time on your build. If so, how much time?
Interesting point about running your car at 80%. Is that by choice, ie mechanical sympathy, or not, ie not sure how long your engine would survive at 100% (see my earlier comments re reliability & tuner guarantees).
27 August 2002, 02:00 AM
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I am running my car at around 80 percent as it is over engineered and this sought of output shouldn't really stress the engine. rebuild took around 6 weeks in total although this was pretty much the whole car. I will post some pics
28 August 2002, 10:42 AM
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I think it's always the law of diminishing returns when going for power - I just wish AndyF had been around when I was looking at doing my car, rather than waste time with companies who say they know what they're doing, but actually know very little.
2 wasted rebuilds - probably could've got Andy to build me 5 engines for that
Live and learn I guess -
FYI, power from mine runnning the APexi units was 265 @ wheels @ 1.49 bar, power running with the GEMs was 288@wheels at 1.67bar - runs at 1.8 had to be aborted 'cos of a dodgy fuel regulator.
2 wasted rebuilds - probably could've got Andy to build me 5 engines for that
Live and learn I guess -
FYI, power from mine runnning the APexi units was 265 @ wheels @ 1.49 bar, power running with the GEMs was 288@wheels at 1.67bar - runs at 1.8 had to be aborted 'cos of a dodgy fuel regulator.
28 August 2002, 11:47 PM
#57
Craig - Sounds like I should be talking to Andy F then? And who else?
Co55ie - Still waiting for the power graphs & pics. Look forward to seeing them.
All - No one has come forward with a recommendation for a good tuner that they have used/have personal experience of (except Co55ie, I suppose, with GGR). Should I be reading anything into this, ie there's not a lot of people out there who know how to do this properly for the Scoobie (or is that a contentious statement)?
WB
Co55ie - Still waiting for the power graphs & pics. Look forward to seeing them.
All - No one has come forward with a recommendation for a good tuner that they have used/have personal experience of (except Co55ie, I suppose, with GGR). Should I be reading anything into this, ie there's not a lot of people out there who know how to do this properly for the Scoobie (or is that a contentious statement)?
WB