Westfield v R1 at the Nurburgring - full lap on video
02 August 2001, 06:28 PM
#31
Some of you people amaze me. You dont seem to want to read or listen to the people who actually are in/on the car bike.
Cars and bikes excell at diferent things. This video is a good illustration of this. Its also a lot of fun which is what my ring trips are all about.
Just because the bike isnt sitting on the red line doesnt mean it isnt at the limits of its grip levels. Your comments show you dont understand the relationships between geering and torque curves. Revs are not a good indication of getting the max performance (unless you read Max Power then it's everything. Well after how blue your neon steering wheel is)
You need to think about what Joerund and I say. It's a simple case of the car having higher performance in slower/tighter corners and the bike having higher performance in high speed corners and long straights.
I would love to see you sit on the back of that R1 and tell him to go faster through the corners, especially at the start of the lap. How do you like your hospital food?
Cars and bikes excell at diferent things. This video is a good illustration of this. Its also a lot of fun which is what my ring trips are all about.
Just because the bike isnt sitting on the red line doesnt mean it isnt at the limits of its grip levels. Your comments show you dont understand the relationships between geering and torque curves. Revs are not a good indication of getting the max performance (unless you read Max Power then it's everything. Well after how blue your neon steering wheel is)
You need to think about what Joerund and I say. It's a simple case of the car having higher performance in slower/tighter corners and the bike having higher performance in high speed corners and long straights.
I would love to see you sit on the back of that R1 and tell him to go faster through the corners, especially at the start of the lap. How do you like your hospital food?
02 August 2001, 07:08 PM
#32
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John, don't get ya knickers in a twist 
That said ... trying to go to the next level of understanding :
>>It's a simple case of the car having higher performance in slower/tighter corners and the bike having higher performance in high speed corners and long straights.
I'm wondering about the "why". Having followed the Ringers list, Joerund, and yerself for a while, I fully realize at what level you guys were going 'round there (like frigging quick
) OK, straight line is obvious, better power to wheight ratio (I think ?), but the corner stuff puzzles me.
Slow corners - car has advantage. Fast corners, bike rules. Why is that so ? Is it because of the "better grip" ? 4 wheels against 2 ? Ability to oversteer a bit ? "Leaning" working better in faster corners ? Has braking got anything to do with it at all ?
Just trying to get my head around the obvious outcome of the video.
Theo [great vid BTW ]
That said ... trying to go to the next level of understanding :
>>It's a simple case of the car having higher performance in slower/tighter corners and the bike having higher performance in high speed corners and long straights.
I'm wondering about the "why". Having followed the Ringers list, Joerund, and yerself for a while, I fully realize at what level you guys were going 'round there (like frigging quick
) OK, straight line is obvious, better power to wheight ratio (I think ?), but the corner stuff puzzles me.Slow corners - car has advantage. Fast corners, bike rules. Why is that so ? Is it because of the "better grip" ? 4 wheels against 2 ? Ability to oversteer a bit ? "Leaning" working better in faster corners ? Has braking got anything to do with it at all ?
Just trying to get my head around the obvious outcome of the video.
Theo [great vid BTW
]
02 August 2001, 08:11 PM
#33
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by johnfelstead:
Cars and bikes excell at diferent things. This video is a good illustration of this. Its also a lot of fun which is what my ring trips are all about.
Just because the bike isnt sitting on the red line doesnt mean it isnt at the limits of its grip levels. Your comments show you dont understand the relationships between geering and torque curves. Revs are not a good indication of getting the max performance (unless you read Max Power then it's everything. Well after how blue your neon steering wheel is)
You need to think about what Joerund and I say. It's a simple case of the car having higher performance in slower/tighter corners and the bike having higher performance in high speed corners and long straights.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quite correct, but I do believe some people are looking at revs on the straight, John. Like you say, revs are no indication of grip level, or how hard I push the bike in the corners. On the straights however, I have a lot to go on.
For those who are in doubt about what happened through that lap, here's a more thorough explanation to it all. I've split the lap up in the sections I usually look at when comparing my different movie laps.
To see the measurement points where I measure split times, have a look here:
Cars and bikes excell at diferent things. This video is a good illustration of this. Its also a lot of fun which is what my ring trips are all about.
Just because the bike isnt sitting on the red line doesnt mean it isnt at the limits of its grip levels. Your comments show you dont understand the relationships between geering and torque curves. Revs are not a good indication of getting the max performance (unless you read Max Power then it's everything. Well after how blue your neon steering wheel is)
You need to think about what Joerund and I say. It's a simple case of the car having higher performance in slower/tighter corners and the bike having higher performance in high speed corners and long straights.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Quite correct, but I do believe some people are looking at revs on the straight, John. Like you say, revs are no indication of grip level, or how hard I push the bike in the corners. On the straights however, I have a lot to go on.
For those who are in doubt about what happened through that lap, here's a more thorough explanation to it all. I've split the lap up in the sections I usually look at when comparing my different movie laps.
To see the measurement points where I measure split times, have a look here:
02 August 2001, 08:21 PM
#34
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Joerund, what a great explanation, thanks for that !
>>Bergwerk - Steilstrecken-Kurve
This is the part that I personally thought a bike would be way faster than a car. Frankly, for me, that is the most scary section of the Ring, and that's where I back off because of the high speeds.
>>Bergwerk - Steilstrecken-Kurve
This is the part that I personally thought a bike would be way faster than a car. Frankly, for me, that is the most scary section of the Ring, and that's where I back off because of the high speeds.
02 August 2001, 08:25 PM
#35
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EvilBevel:
<B>Joerund, what a great explanation, thanks for that !
>>Bergwerk - Steilstrecken-Kurve
This is the part that I personally thought a bike would be way faster than a car. Frankly, for me, that is the most scary section of the Ring, and that's where I back off because of the high speeds.
[/quote]
We're almost 6 seconds slower on this section. That is a lot of time.
[This message has been edited by jse (edited 02 August 2001).]
<B>Joerund, what a great explanation, thanks for that !
>>Bergwerk - Steilstrecken-Kurve
This is the part that I personally thought a bike would be way faster than a car. Frankly, for me, that is the most scary section of the Ring, and that's where I back off because of the high speeds.
[/quote]
We're almost 6 seconds slower on this section. That is a lot of time.
[This message has been edited by jse (edited 02 August 2001).]
02 August 2001, 11:51 PM
#36
What must be taken into account here is that we are watching an inexperienced (for the ring) driver not trying to be a hero.
Each trip over i have gone faster and each trip back i have had all arms and legs intact.
I have been driving quick cars for a very long time. I know that when you get things badly wrong things happen very fast indeed so i am taking my time to build my speed.
Look at the number of track days i do then look at the number of crashes i have had. (9 years and NONE, never put a scratch on any car ever.) There is a reason for that. I use my brain and dont give a stuff what others think, i am doing it my way. I know that in time i will be as fast as possible, i am going to survive long enough to see my true potential realised also. (unless something very bizzare occurs, which can, i have no illusions there)
This lap would have been significantly faster if i was running full power. Remember i was down a good 60BHP on normal and for the last 3 miles i was at least 130BHP down on normal. I am very happy with the lap time based on my experience of the track and the level of performance the car had.
No nickers in a twist Theo.
I am just trying to get people out there to think about what is going on.
Joerund is faster than me, full stop right now. Once my car and I are fully up to speed thats going to change. LOL
Each trip over i have gone faster and each trip back i have had all arms and legs intact.
I have been driving quick cars for a very long time. I know that when you get things badly wrong things happen very fast indeed so i am taking my time to build my speed.
Look at the number of track days i do then look at the number of crashes i have had. (9 years and NONE, never put a scratch on any car ever.) There is a reason for that. I use my brain and dont give a stuff what others think, i am doing it my way. I know that in time i will be as fast as possible, i am going to survive long enough to see my true potential realised also. (unless something very bizzare occurs, which can, i have no illusions there)
This lap would have been significantly faster if i was running full power. Remember i was down a good 60BHP on normal and for the last 3 miles i was at least 130BHP down on normal. I am very happy with the lap time based on my experience of the track and the level of performance the car had.
No nickers in a twist Theo.
I am just trying to get people out there to think about what is going on.Joerund is faster than me, full stop right now. Once my car and I are fully up to speed thats going to change.
LOL
03 August 2001, 08:54 AM
#39
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Good to hear it from the bikers point of view... i also like the broken down section times...
nuburbring to those that have not been there is a scary place where u "think u know" whats over the next crest but are u willing to risk your car/life on what u "think u know"
it takes hundreds of laps to become a true ringer...
rw
nuburbring to those that have not been there is a scary place where u "think u know" whats over the next crest but are u willing to risk your car/life on what u "think u know"
it takes hundreds of laps to become a true ringer...
rw
03 August 2001, 12:04 PM
#40
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I can vouch for Johns ability. Having been around Manchester with him in his 2.0 Litre Sport in the rain and watched him handle a car in the wet like no other, I can safely say he is by far the best driver I have been in the car with on the road. I have also seen the pictures of John racing Helman Imps, some time ago...you have to see these!
He could be an F1 driver.
Ron
He could be an F1 driver.
Ron
03 August 2001, 12:10 PM
#41
thanks for the great description Joerund. Makes great reading.
As to the reasons why a bike is faster in the quick stuff yet slower in the tight stuff. Some of it is obvious, some not quite so.
The slow stuff is easy, its basically down to mechanical grip levels. A car has more than a bike. In the really quick stuff strange things start to happen to the car that dont affect the bike so much.
As the speeds rise my car generates aerodynamic lift over the front end, reducing its grip and making it produce more understeer. Its very noticable above 120MPH. Also the energy required to change direction in a car is higher in relation to the bike as the speed rises, you get to a point where the grip is overcome by the momentum of the car wanting to go in the direction it is travelling. You only have so much mechanical grip available to overcome this.
The main reason on the ring though is power to drag ratio. Drag increases as the square of speed so if you start out with a drag disadvantage, that disadvantage is squared constantly as the speed rises so the diference gets bigger and bigger and bigger. This is not the same thing as power to weight ratio.
It's a facinating subject isnt it.
As to the reasons why a bike is faster in the quick stuff yet slower in the tight stuff. Some of it is obvious, some not quite so.
The slow stuff is easy, its basically down to mechanical grip levels. A car has more than a bike. In the really quick stuff strange things start to happen to the car that dont affect the bike so much.
As the speeds rise my car generates aerodynamic lift over the front end, reducing its grip and making it produce more understeer. Its very noticable above 120MPH. Also the energy required to change direction in a car is higher in relation to the bike as the speed rises, you get to a point where the grip is overcome by the momentum of the car wanting to go in the direction it is travelling. You only have so much mechanical grip available to overcome this.
The main reason on the ring though is power to drag ratio. Drag increases as the square of speed so if you start out with a drag disadvantage, that disadvantage is squared constantly as the speed rises so the diference gets bigger and bigger and bigger. This is not the same thing as power to weight ratio.
It's a facinating subject isnt it.
03 August 2001, 12:22 PM
#42
If only Ronnie.......Thanks for the kind words.
I had a race with DC at Silverstone in the wet in karts back in 95 and kicked his ***, miserable sod wouldnt shake my hand after.
He is toss anyway, never done anything exceptional that i can think of. LOL
My Hartwell Imp, now that was a mad car. It reved as high as the R1
I had a race with DC at Silverstone in the wet in karts back in 95 and kicked his ***, miserable sod wouldnt shake my hand after.
He is toss anyway, never done anything exceptional that i can think of.
LOLMy Hartwell Imp, now that was a mad car. It reved as high as the R1
03 August 2001, 12:44 PM
#43
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top vid, big grins here.
fantastic follow up posts, thanks to John 'What the f*ck was that' Falstead and Joerunds for priceless comments added.
<8 mins! - true Ring 'meisters.
Paul.
fantastic follow up posts, thanks to John 'What the f*ck was that' Falstead and Joerunds for priceless comments added.
<8 mins! - true Ring 'meisters.
Paul.
03 August 2001, 01:15 PM
#44
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by PaulFisher:
<B>If anyone dosn't have the DIV3 codec to play this...[/quote]
Or they could download it together with the video. Link for download of the DivX codec in English, is placed just above all DivX versions at my site.
<B>If anyone dosn't have the DIV3 codec to play this...[/quote]
Or they could download it together with the video. Link for download of the DivX codec in English, is placed just above all DivX versions at my site.
03 August 2001, 09:49 PM
#45
I could put a wing package on my car but i think the aditional drag will slow me down more than the extra grip will make up for round this particular track.
I really am not that fussed about the lap times. If i were i would be running with an aero screen instead of a brick like windscreen.
I am not too keen on driving 600 miles with no windscreen each way. It's hard enough work as it is.
I go to the ring for the challenge of driving what i have at the limits i feel safe at. I also go for fun and to mix with some like minded nutters.
I really am not that fussed about the lap times. If i were i would be running with an aero screen instead of a brick like windscreen.
I am not too keen on driving 600 miles with no windscreen each way. It's hard enough work as it is.
I go to the ring for the challenge of driving what i have at the limits i feel safe at. I also go for fun and to mix with some like minded nutters.
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