The Zohan

My two penneth here then!

It is cruel, cruelty to animals is wrong, simple really!

If Badger baiting or dog fighting where legal and kept people in jobs - would that make them right?

I am not for people losing their jobs but times they are a changing and perhaps people need to look to other forms of employment, gone are the days when people left school, got a job locally and stayed there until retirement.

Tazman
I take it you eat what you kill, i do not believe that many foxes get eaten by the hunters, it is just for 'sport' and to keep the numbers down as hunting is the only way to control numbers or so we are led to believe

As for fly's on the windscreen, keep it real

[Edited by Paul Habgood - 9/17/2002 2:09:52 PM]

MarkO

Absolutely. The amount of time wasted by both governments is totally disproportionate to the importance of the issue. Having said that, a lot of people across the UK feel very strongly about it, so being a democracy their views should be represented.

The shame of it is that with a tiny fraction more political will the UK-wide ban could have been implemented 2-3 years ago by the government. They just didn't have the ***** to do it for fear of upsetting the unelected pro-hunting upper house. Perhaps we should allow the huntsmen to chase politians instead of foxes - the amount of twisting and turning they'd do, the entertainment for the hunters would be far more extreme than with a common old fox.

Oh, and Diablo - I'd love to meet up for a beer once we're permanently ensconced in Scotland.

Diablo

Some way further up the scale than doing it for fun


Enough said really......



[Edited by diablo - 9/17/2002 2:26:11 PM]

MarkO

Are the two mutually exclusive? Is there any reason why we have to reduce cruelty and suffering to animals or humans?

As far as I'm concerned, animals are food for humans - we're omnivores, after all. However, in this day and age, there's no reason why we can't dispatch the animals quickly and humanely, rather than chasing them until their muscles begin to disintegrate, and then when they eventually give up, ripping them apart in a lengthy and bloodthirsty frenzy.

You want to shoot rabbits for food Taz - that's absolutely fine by me. Save me a slice of pie. I like steak as much as the next man, but I try (whereever possible) to avoid buying meat which might have been produced in a manner that's below the highest possible standards.

MarkO

Diablo, whilst that's a rather horrific image, it's also over-emotive and irrelevant out of context. Who's to know whether the fox in that particular photo didn't die instantly and then was mutilated afterwards?

Digging up pictures like that adds nothing to the discussion, and can over-sensationalise the issue. We can all imagine the effects of a pack of hounds on a fox without seeing photographic evidence, and anyone who's read any of the scientific reports in the last couple of years will have a good understanding of the physiological effects of excessive pursuit on the animals.

Let's try and keep this as a reasoned discussion, rather than a tabloid argument, eh?

Diablo

Fair point MarkO, but disagree that its irrelevant.

Posted it because I believe that many do not appreciate the horrific way in which foxes and many other animals die for the entertainment of a number of individuals.

Have edited post accordingly

D

skipjack

diablo

who says i'm in a minority? most of the country is at best ambivalent. then you have the pro-hunt camp and the anti-hunt camp, both vociferously believing they are right.

300,000+ coming to march? that's no minority statement from a popular movement for whom the right to hunt is a core value and a statment of liberty. will it be banned? to quote han solo, don't get cocky, kid. no politician has had the ***** to do it. nor will blair: he cannot afford the backlash come election time. as for what's happened in scotland? who cares. not i. they've decided to devolve, the can do WTF they like. it has no bearing on england which has 15 times the population.

you say it's cruel but that's just your opinion. i say with hunting, the fox has a chance: live or die and if it dies, it's quick (and a catch is rare - only 2/10). shooting is haphazard and includes the risk of wounding and a slow death. ditto poisoning and trapping which adds the problem of indescriminacy.

which part of the logic do you not understand? or does dogma prevent you having an open mind?

drag-hunting - cop out mate, boring. like a ferrari with a nissan micra engine. typical lib-dem compromise position that pleases no-one.

i say fuss about nothing. waste of time and oxygen when more important things need to be addressed. blair is just using it to appease the more hard-of-thinking anti-hunt members of his party, promising, promising, promising but never quite doing anything about it. very clever really. keeps all interested parties in a state of high excitement.

if you're worried about cruelty, what about battery and factory farming? the appalling state of animal transportation on the continent? whaling? seal culling with a baseball bat? genetic modification of animals for increased yields?

come on, get some perspective on things.

BTW, badger-baiting, ****-fighting & all that. don't like it at all. very base IMHO because it's only done as a means of gambling. plus neither animal has a chance. and that's not cricket.

MarkO

What about them? I'm opposed to all of them. I group them - together with foxhunting - in my "stupid humans should know better" file.

skipjack

well i wish you luck in your search for utopia.

MarkO

What a facetious comment. Hell, I don't hold much truck with paedophiles, to be frank, but in your world would the attitude be "it's fun, the thill of the chase, and in my opinion it's not cruel - so let them get on with it"?

astraboy

hehe, I was wondering when the paeodphile comments would start.
*lays back on sofa and opens a bag of crisps and a bottle of Irn Bru*
anyone care to join me? this is gonna be a good one!

skipjack

**************

it may be the opinion of people who want it stopped. but it's deemed childish, soppy rot by people who don't.

a simple stand-off of subjective opinion. and if you want to ban it (and fascists just *love* to ban things they neither agree with nor understand), then it's you who has his work cut out. not me.

good luck!

MarkO

Glad I didn't disappoint you.

<reaches over and takes one of astraboy's crisps>

MarkO

[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] This sort of comment really winds me up.

What, exactly, is there to understand about fox-hunting? What, pray, is the deep and philosophical issue which I've failed to grasp that justifies fox-hunters' actions?

It's that kind of patronising talk which does you more harm than good. We know farmers (and other people who are often involved in hunts) manage a large chunk of the countryside, but that's got nothing to do with fox-hunting.

Stop trying to be all mysterious and pretending there's more to it than others might think. You're trying to be elitist, except for the fact that there is nothing more to understand, so it's just as bad as the facism of which you accuse others.

If, by understanding it, we'd change our opinions and agree with you that hunting should continue, why not explain it to us so we can understand?!?

skipjack

LOL oh dear markOm you have lost it haven't you, old chap?

you're talking utter tripe of course. facetious, yes. because you are unable to delineate between shades of grey. you cannot treat foxhunting in the same vein as industrial scale factory farming that has no relation to issues of animal husbandry.


"...fools to the left of me, jo-kers to the right, here i am, stuck in the middle with you ..."

MarkO

I never said they should be treated the same, I said I group them the same, as opinions.

If you could get off your high-horse and try to be a little less patronising, you'd what I meant.

skipjack

the truth hurts bucko. go ban yourself.

elitist? oh christ, you sound like gordon brown on the laura spence affair.

i'm not going to explain it again. it's not rocket science.

Diablo

you having a laugh?

How would you feel about being chased by a pack of angry predators intent on ripping you to pieces.

Quick is it? What about running it down to the point of exhaustion - thats not quick and the "kill" is certainly not as quick as a bullet in the head.

Not haphazard if the animal is caught in a humane trap. But thats no fun, see my post above. Poisoning and non humane trapping should be banned in any event for the reasons you quote.

Its not me who's being illogical. If only two in 10 get caught where is the logic in that?

Now the truth comes out. Its simply the thrill of the kill after all. So all the arguments about a nice ride in the country with friends are just bollox then.

Somewhat barbaric don't you think for a "civilised" race? When will the pro hunting group just admit that you do it for fun (sick as that may be?)

All are horrific and need to be addressed also. I actively contribute to a number of animal welfare organisations. But your point is irrelevant, the matter being discussed here was one of hunting in the uk.

I'm quite happy with my perspective thank you.

No its not "cricket". Neither is fox hunting for "sport" because, lets face it, you've already admitted it is an inneficient way of culling.

But I see that your criteria for what is acceptable cruelty and what is not is down to whether you can gamble on it and that the odds are a bit worse????

Its not me who needs to get a sense of perspective on all this.

Oh, and I am quite happy that Scotland is "devolving" although thats just another appease the masses political offering. Clearly Scotland has a sense of perspective on Animal Cruelty, as a nation. Perhaps you should care what goes on, or are you the narrow minded one?

D

Diablo

No mate, its not rocket science. Its the misguided view of a number of narrow minded individuals who are out of touch with what is happening around them.

And, in any event, you have not explained it.

MarkO

It's a shame, Skipjack, 'cos if you weren't exhibiting the arrogance that's usually associated with Toffs in the Country, this could have been an interesting and enlightening discussion for all involved.

However, your attitude of "f*ck you all - I want to do it, so I will, regardless of the consequences to all and sundry (including the fox)" is exactly why so many people hate (and I don't use that word lightly) the pro-hunting establishment.

Still, hunting will get banned, sooner or later. It might be next year, or it might be in 20 years, but I'll guarantee it'll be in my lifetime - the status quo is not an option. And after it's banned, I'm certain you'll realise that a little less arrogance and a little more discussion could have been personally advantageous to your cause.

Never mind, eh?

Phil_

I wonder where some of you people get your ideas from. Do you cry into your Big Macs everytime you go to McDonald's? Of course you don't. The fox has a better life than a farmed cow, and a no more stressful death (ever been to an abbatoir? Thought not. You wouldn't like to see all that blood and gore, would you?).

skipjack

**************

oh dear, temper tantrums all round. and as usual, out comes the abuse.

i'm only being honest. fox hunting has an enjoyable element because the desire to hunt is genetically imprinted in human beings. why deny it? it's the truth.

it's also to do with being one of the binding fabrics of rural life and tradition that is passed down from generation to generation. it's also to do with animal husbandry and the control of vermin.

enjoying the chase doesn't make me a bad man who has a propensity to be cruel to his pets or beat his wife up. that really is a ridiculous thing to say and you're making yourself look like a fool.

hang on, maybe i'm a closet serial killer who hasn't discovered it yet.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Explain it again? I'd like to see you explain it PROPERLY for the first time. So far, all you've done is tell us that we'd never understand, that there's some mystique to foxhunting, and that you'll get your own way in the end because B.Liar is too weak to follow through. Didn't I say something similar to your last sentiment in my opening post?
As to the rest, get a life. IT'S WRONG TO CAUSE UNNECESSARY SUFFERING. Clear enough?[img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]
And as for the fox having a chance, wouldn't it have a better one if there was only ONE dog hunting it? And an even better one if there were none?

MarkO

I do, actually. Unless, of course, I remembered to order that 2nd Mega-Mac.

Jen.

Not ever been on one? Well certinaly not a well-organised one if you think that. It's *exactly* the same, same meet, same horses, same hounds, same land....oh yeah. You don't kill a fox...I think Diablo was spot on with his comments on this one

Diablo

Yeah, I've been to an abattoir.

Steel bolt through the brain. Quick and simple. No one chases the cow for 20 miles with a pack of dogs

Plenty of blood and guts, but the cow is dead before its processed.

And any blood on the slaughtermans face is there by accident.

Anyway, such a comparison is hardly likely to appease the fox, is it?

D

Phil_

Why does no one give a stuff about how Rentokill despatch rats? Is it because they're not orange and cute looking?

[Edited by Phil_ - 9/17/2002 3:24:47 PM]