A bad workman always blames his tools and thus bad management always blames its workers! .....oh and if BMW are so great how come they threatened to sue every 'mini' specialist in the UK if they didnt change their company name? w@nkers! (sorry if that sounds a bit harsh)

 

15k for a fully loaded mini cooper?

Prefer the prospect of the new civic type R myself.

Mini in my mind is style over substance. The look is already dated and on the way out.

what about the front of it? a la Ford Scorpio I reckon.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by polarbearit:
<B>Gary
Apologies - No chip on my shoulder, it just seemed you were correcting people (ie Subaru owners) on their opinions of BMW.

(snip)

please do tell me what sort of mpg you get from yours.

Jon[/quote]

Not correcting, just interested in seeing if anyone had come up with a reason why 90% of the british seems to 'hate' any german car manufacturer, especially BMW. Obvioulsy not, as all they can do it blame BMW for Rover collapse even though Rover was on its knees many years before BMW even thought of buying them. It is strange though that in 1994 when BMW bought Rover - they were heralded as saviours and heros and BMW car sales in this country increased by 20%. My how times change in a fickle country

Will let you know how we get on with the Mini


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by merlin:
<B> I'm sure that the guys at Sunderland, Derby and Swindon would have something to say about this... [/quote]

No, I'm sure they wouldn't - That is the difference between 'British Manufacturing' and 'Japanese Manufacturing in Britain'

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DazW:
<B>A bad workman always blames his tools and thus bad management always blames its workers! .....oh and if BMW are so great how come they threatened to sue every 'mini' specialist in the UK if they didnt change their company name? w@nkers! (sorry if that sounds a bit harsh)[/quote]

Relevance check??

 

Not really interested with throwing in my views on the BMW/Rover debate but have just driven the Cooper and would like to add my thoughts on the real issue, the actual car.
Basically I thought it was a great little car and is an excellent buy at circa £12k for a nice Cooper with a few options. It looks great, in and out, and is reasonably quick as a town/a/b road car. Build quality and options are also great and I'm thinking of ordering one for November for my Girlfriend (and me!). I also think that the promise of the 'S' model and the Alpina version in '02 is very tempting also. Imagine an Alpina MINI with 200bhp+ and 18' Alpina Wheels at each corner...mmm..tasty!.
Gareth.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wilf:
<B>

Prefer the prospect of the new civic type R myself.
[/quote]

And if it was my car, so probably would I, but in the areas the Mini competes the Civic R can't, and vice versa Plus the Civic R is 17k The Cooper S Vs the CivicR will be a truer and closer comparison!

The main attraction of the cooper is that is enormous fun at any speed - the problem with the Honda Type Rs (which I love, and have nearly bought twice) are that they need to be virtually raped to get the performance and 'fun factor' out - not that it's not worth it whe you do

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by wilf:
<B>
Mini in my mind is style over substance. The look is already dated and on the way out.

[/quote]

If that is genuinely what you think, you have obviously not seen, sat it or driven one It is style with more substance per pound than any other car on the market, and in the flesh, turns more heads than a Ferrari - I know, we parked next to one

 

Relevence....errr, the reason I wont be driving or buying a BMW or Mini!

 

GaryC,

before slating the strike action method of getting results, bear in mind that the true masters of this are the French, now you cant say that their car industry is ****ed can you?

As far as relating the rest of british industry as being poor workers its just not true, but they are not competing on a level playing field. Take the example of a company I used to work for producing a range of products from simple to complex. The south americans could produce the items, ship them across the world and sell at a profit for less than the raw materials cost in the UK or Europe. Why? many many issues, but one of the biggies was polution preventing costs.
I was told of a classic story by a colleague who had come from another industry. He had been asked to understand why India could demolish a ship for such a low cost, so he went out there to visit one of their "specialist" dismantlers.
They towed a ship towards the shore and literally let it plough right into the beach. Then, literally hundreds of manual labourers set to work on it with numerous tools, and proceded over a period of time to rip it into pieces. (they didnt have any protective clothing, harnesses etc). The end state was a beach covered with debris (read oil, general rubbish etc). When he spoke to one of the site foremen about the polution the guy just said "there isnt any, the sea takes all the rubish away"

now if we let our industry work like that in the UK Im sure we would be amongst the best in the world

Senior ex Rover people have been on record as saying that the cars they were developing were not allowed to compete with the equivalent BMWs, so a car was designed to compete, but was made not to by degrading it.

robski

BMW, built by Germans, driven by sausage eaters

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DazW:
<B>Relevence....errr, the reason I wont be driving or buying a BMW or Mini![/quote]


What, because they have demanded firms don't use the Mini brand name in their company names? That would stop you buying some of the best cars on the market?

Given the billions (direct and indirect) the Mini brand name has cost, can you blame them

 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by robski:
<B>GaryC,

before slating the strike action method of getting results, bear in mind that the true masters of this are the French, now you cant say that their car industry is ****ed can you?

As far as relating the rest of british industry as being poor workers its just not true, but they are not competing on a level playing field. Take the example of a company I used to work for producing a range of products from simple to complex. The south americans could produce the items, ship them across the world and sell at a profit for less than the raw materials cost in the UK or Europe. Why? many many issues, but one of the biggies was polution preventing costs.
I was told of a classic story by a colleague who had come from another industry. He had been asked to understand why India could demolish a ship for such a low cost, so he went out there to visit one of their "specialist" dismantlers.
They towed a ship towards the shore and literally let it plough right into the beach. Then, literally hundreds of manual labourers set to work on it with numerous tools, and proceded over a period of time to rip it into pieces. (they didnt have any protective clothing, harnesses etc). The end state was a beach covered with debris (read oil, general rubbish etc). When he spoke to one of the site foremen about the polution the guy just said "there isnt any, the sea takes all the rubish away"

now if we let our industry work like that in the UK Im sure we would be amongst the best in the world

Senior ex Rover people have been on record as saying that the cars they were developing were not allowed to compete with the equivalent BMWs, so a car was designed to compete, but was made not to by degrading it.

robski

BMW, built by Germans, driven by sausage eaters [/quote]


Robski - your points are all very valid (and the ship dismantlers are an awesome sight) but the whole of Europe is affected by the same EU legislation and other contries are to be able to work around it and still give higher productivity then 'we' can! The US is subject to even greater socio-controls, and they likewise wipe the floor with the brits in most areas

You are also right about the French and their strike action, BUT even with even more striking than the UK, French car factories still manage higher car/worker ratios than British car manufacturers managed (excluding the Japanese manufacturers in Britain)

The Ex-Rover managers might have gone 'on record' but do you really beleive the story about their cars actually being better than BMW but being forced to be downgraded?? They are bound to claim that, but what cars? they had no real competition for any BMW model. The only big saloon they had made in the last 15 years (800) was a dog from the outset and only existed thanks to Honda

Perhaps they had developed a world beating F1 car, but BMW had pulled the plug so it didn't compete with theirs - or even better perhaps the Williams BMW is really the Williams Rover - BMW nicked the car And as for the McLaren F1, well perhaps that was also a Rover engine that BMW nicked and branded as their own Could it be that BMW are NOT actually the worlds leader in car engines, it is actually Rover that deserve that accolade??

 

Hi GaryC,

I've had problems with both BMW and Mercedes, in terms of customer service.

I believe that I was sold an 'experience' which BMW nor Mercedes were unable to live up to. Poor customer service and, in BMW's case, outright dishonesty. (I should have involved the police but didn't!)

I've owned 6 BMW's and 2 Mercedes. If I do go for another one of either marque, it will definitely be outside of the dealer network.

I accept I am open to charges of cutting my nose off to spite my face, but ,hey, it's my nose

C

 

Gary, maybe if you had a family member that worked at longbridge, and a friend who owned a mini garage you'd understand my feeling of animosity towards BMW.

PS and their drivers think they own the road

PPS E30 M3 was a cracker tho!

 

Gary C, couldn't agree more about customer service. I think the BMW dealers are too used to 7-series owners getting their trainee staff to drop off their car for service. I hated going to the dealer to drop off my BMW325. I was once told my car was ready and sat there for 90 mins during which no one said a word to me. This may seem trivial but by contrast my Subaru dealer (Dennis Common in the North East) treat you like family. I once drove there straight from a long haul flight from the US and the lady on reception said I looked tired and made me a cuppa.... just like yer favourite auntie! This may seem trite but in real terms lets look at the facts on paper. A car that does 0 to 60 in less than 6 seconds but has a major service with all belts and the like for just over £300 and no annoying 'EXTRAS' on your service.... that makes me happy. Everytime I took the BMW in for service I needed additional items and the average bill was over £300.00 even for an oil change and a kick of the tyres. If I heard the phrase " you need a 'xxxx' bush replacing" once......etc The scooby has had nothing but regular servicing despite being raked within an inch of its life on a daily basis. They don't care if you've had third party mods, they still treat you fairly. They understand the people who buy them. Lets see what MINIS start to cost after the warranty runs out. And if they produce a car that outperforms the Turbo what will the servicing costs be and will the 'servicing deal' apply?

I love the new mini for it's soul and the way it challenges the market by being fashionable (the scoob is a japanese bean can styled by someone who should put down their playstation) and is a good drive, but as a man who went BACK to Subaru from so called prestige marques such as BMW and MERCEDES customer service counts for a lot in my books. BMW dealers take note.