Advice on brakes please ....
25 August 2001, 03:40 PM
#31
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I recently upgraded my My99 (4 pots) with TSL Brake discs and Ds4003 pads, I have yet to take these on track (will soon) but on the road the inital bite is strong particularly when warmed up and the pedal feel is nice and progressive. They do seem to offer more breaking force.
IMHO these are definitely an improvement on the std subaru offerings and the Mintex 1144s I was running until recently.
(A little over £400 for pads and disc its no more expensive than std subaru kit)
Andy
Edit to add: I also use braided hoses all round and silkolene prorace brake fluid.
[This message has been edited by Andy W (edited 25 August 2001).]
IMHO these are definitely an improvement on the std subaru offerings and the Mintex 1144s I was running until recently.
(A little over £400 for pads and disc its no more expensive than std subaru kit)
Andy
Edit to add: I also use braided hoses all round and silkolene prorace brake fluid.
[This message has been edited by Andy W (edited 25 August 2001).]
25 August 2001, 11:36 PM
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Bex
I've recently fitted Godspeeds 330mm kit to my MY00 with standard 4pot calipers (17" wheels). I've got to say that for 500quid it is excellent value and so far I'm impressed with the stopping power.
I too have done a few track days and have warped two sets of Pagid discs! I've given up with them now and wish I'd bought this kit in the first place.
I can't comment as to how good they are around the track, but I'll find out next weekend at Trax. If you're there come and ask me.
The other option I nearly bought before this (which might be better for you as you need calipers) is the AP 4pot kit for 16" wheels from Hi Spec brakes. Have a look at their web site, I think they're only about 900 quid all in.
Good luck
Steve
I've recently fitted Godspeeds 330mm kit to my MY00 with standard 4pot calipers (17" wheels). I've got to say that for 500quid it is excellent value and so far I'm impressed with the stopping power.
I too have done a few track days and have warped two sets of Pagid discs! I've given up with them now and wish I'd bought this kit in the first place.
I can't comment as to how good they are around the track, but I'll find out next weekend at Trax. If you're there come and ask me.
The other option I nearly bought before this (which might be better for you as you need calipers) is the AP 4pot kit for 16" wheels from Hi Spec brakes. Have a look at their web site, I think they're only about 900 quid all in.
Good luck
Steve
26 August 2001, 11:00 AM
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I can happily confirm that 6/7 laps with standard 2 pots (MY98), Greenstuff pads (I don't like lots of brake dust) and EBC grooved / drilled will end in vast quantities of smoke and flames from your pads...
Must... resist... temptation... for... 6... pots...
Must... resist... temptation... for... 6... pots...
26 August 2001, 01:12 PM
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OK, I've read all the above, i've read similar posts.. everyone seems to agree that the best option is the AP4 pot kit as the 6pot stops the front too well..correct me if i'm wrong...this is the kit I would buy if money was no object... but surely to reduce fade with the Subaru 4 pots all you'd have to do would be to get better grooved disks (better dispersion of gasses) with a good set of pads??
26 August 2001, 01:37 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DominicA:
<B>OK, ... but surely to reduce fade with the Subaru 4 pots all you'd have to do would be to get better grooved disks (better dispersion of gasses) with a good set of pads??[/quote]
As per my post above the TSL grooved discs along with DS4003 Pads are a considerable improvement on std...
Andy
<B>OK, ... but surely to reduce fade with the Subaru 4 pots all you'd have to do would be to get better grooved disks (better dispersion of gasses) with a good set of pads??[/quote]
As per my post above the TSL grooved discs along with DS4003 Pads are a considerable improvement on std...
Andy
26 August 2001, 05:29 PM
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The main problem with standard size discs isn't so much the diameter but mainly the width for the ventilation and that they aren't bell mounted so they retain heat a lot more. Hence why Pagid, TSL and any other standard fitment discs won't be good enough for track use.
Stef Reader gives his brakes more abuse than most and he is only running discs that fit under 16" rims and as far as I know he hasn't warped any discs because they are bell mounted and 28mm wide.
If you would like a set of Pagid discs and pads cheap, e-mail me.
Steve
Stef Reader gives his brakes more abuse than most and he is only running discs that fit under 16" rims and as far as I know he hasn't warped any discs because they are bell mounted and 28mm wide.
If you would like a set of Pagid discs and pads cheap, e-mail me.
Steve
26 August 2001, 07:25 PM
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In standard form the GTT does only have one big handicap; it's brakes. But, as over here with us in The Netherlands, in the UK also, most drivers will "upgrade" their cars in many other ways, so as to get more power, thereby stressing the limitations of the brakes even more. Does this matter? No, as long as you are not driving on a racing circuit, or as long you are not driving your car fast, this doesn't matter.
Driving around the limitations of your brakes whilst on a circuit?
Mmmm, not my style. A weird thing to do if you ask me. Not many people are satisfied with the power their car delivers. You won't see a considerable number of GTT owners driving around that. No, for some reason they can't live with the fact that their car cannot reach 0-200 km/h in 17 seconds, but needs 18 to do this. But they can live with the fact that when stressing their brakes to the limit these systems might almost fail totally, thereby endangering their, and other peoples lifes. A power deficit of 30 horse power when you are already talking 200 hp+ has never endangered someones life.
Rebecca, when your goal is to drive on circuits, then please go put your money where it is best invested. In the brakes of your car! The equivalent horsepower when applying your brakes is way over 1000 horses. Upgrading the brakes might easily result in a few 100 extra horses. No engine tuning can do that!
AP 4 pot or 6 pot are the best way to go. Steff "The Cossiekiller" Reader and some people over here in Holland have proven that the 4 pot system can do the job nicely. Even after numerous laps on a circuit you will have extra stopping power left. The "big power bunch" will then already have returned to the pits to think of what excuse to use for being so slow around the track.
If you do not have the money for the AP's, then don't panic. The standard system can be upgraded easily, although with a few downsides. It doesn't matter if you use the MY98 calipers with 2 pots, or the newer ones with 4 pots. What matters is what pads to use, actually, what friction coefficient to use. Pagid BLUE's or Ferodo 2000's are very nice pads to greatly improve your system. The standard Subaru disks are fine to use in combination with these better performing pads. An extremer choice would be the Black Pagid's or the Ferodo 4003, and if you want maximum stopping power from your system in combination with the standard disks and calipers, there is only one way to go; Ferodo 3000. These have the highest friction coefficient of all pads, including the carbons. But as I said before, there is a downside. The wear of your disks will be horrific, as will be the production of dust. In case of the Ferodo 3000 the dust/steel debri will eat into your wheels agressively.
Always use a better than standard braking fluid. Using steel hoses will not improve the braking feeling, the rubber ones also have a steel inside. Steel hoses are made for rally and extreme racing use, when you run the risk that stones can ruin the hoses.
Hielke Kerstma
Driving around the limitations of your brakes whilst on a circuit?
Mmmm, not my style. A weird thing to do if you ask me. Not many people are satisfied with the power their car delivers. You won't see a considerable number of GTT owners driving around that. No, for some reason they can't live with the fact that their car cannot reach 0-200 km/h in 17 seconds, but needs 18 to do this. But they can live with the fact that when stressing their brakes to the limit these systems might almost fail totally, thereby endangering their, and other peoples lifes. A power deficit of 30 horse power when you are already talking 200 hp+ has never endangered someones life.
Rebecca, when your goal is to drive on circuits, then please go put your money where it is best invested. In the brakes of your car! The equivalent horsepower when applying your brakes is way over 1000 horses. Upgrading the brakes might easily result in a few 100 extra horses. No engine tuning can do that!
AP 4 pot or 6 pot are the best way to go. Steff "The Cossiekiller" Reader and some people over here in Holland have proven that the 4 pot system can do the job nicely. Even after numerous laps on a circuit you will have extra stopping power left. The "big power bunch" will then already have returned to the pits to think of what excuse to use for being so slow around the track.
If you do not have the money for the AP's, then don't panic. The standard system can be upgraded easily, although with a few downsides. It doesn't matter if you use the MY98 calipers with 2 pots, or the newer ones with 4 pots. What matters is what pads to use, actually, what friction coefficient to use. Pagid BLUE's or Ferodo 2000's are very nice pads to greatly improve your system. The standard Subaru disks are fine to use in combination with these better performing pads. An extremer choice would be the Black Pagid's or the Ferodo 4003, and if you want maximum stopping power from your system in combination with the standard disks and calipers, there is only one way to go; Ferodo 3000. These have the highest friction coefficient of all pads, including the carbons. But as I said before, there is a downside. The wear of your disks will be horrific, as will be the production of dust. In case of the Ferodo 3000 the dust/steel debri will eat into your wheels agressively.
Always use a better than standard braking fluid. Using steel hoses will not improve the braking feeling, the rubber ones also have a steel inside. Steel hoses are made for rally and extreme racing use, when you run the risk that stones can ruin the hoses.
Hielke Kerstma
27 August 2001, 12:17 PM
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OK, I counted to 10 before replying to this ... to 100 even
Hielke, can you read one post in this thread that does say you need power increases before brake upgrades ?
Or is that just you that wants to read it that way ?
For your information, being one of the "slow" sad f*cks with about 300 BHP you are talking about ... I upgraded my brakes with the Prodrive Alcon 330 mm kit LONG before I did anything to the engine.
Oh, and BTW, they came with DS3000, and I was also one of the first people to warn others about the crap they leave on alloys and paint. Unlike you 3 days ago, I knew what devastating effect they could have, and would NEVER with a straight face recommend them to someone just looking for a simple upgrade.
Something else ... why do you recommend AP 4 pots ? Have you tried them all ? Just how much better are they than the Brembo kit or the Alcon kit ? Godspeed ? Move-it ?
Yes, trying to pamper your brakes & your car seems like a strange idea to you... but then it should, as you were the person admitting on the Dutch bbs to red mist and being 110 % competitive each time you get in the car. Some others are just trying to have fun. Difficult concept to grasp I suppose.
Waving around Stef's name is a bit silly too, as you were the one not believing the claims that were made about his Ring lap times - even though most of us had already seen him drive + the vid etc... yada yada. So now he is your guru ? The ultimate reason to buy AP ? Puh-lease... I specifically asked him to post on the Dutch bbs because you were spouting such nonsense about it all.
Look, I admit heavily disliking your style & posts on the Dutch BBS, but PLEASE do not come here and try to sound like you know it all and that learning how to drive the car you have (limitations and all) is a silly advice to give. Maybe I misunderstood, but I don't really think so.
I'm sure a lot of P1 and 22B owners will actually love your advice to Rebecca about the DS3000.
Very smart.
You wanna join here and have some good conversations ? Welcome then. You will find a lot of fellow cossie owners.
However, if you just want to continue your know-it-all stance from the Dutch bbs, please don't bother.
Theo
Hielke, can you read one post in this thread that does say you need power increases before brake upgrades ?
Or is that just you that wants to read it that way ?For your information, being one of the "slow" sad f*cks with about 300 BHP you are talking about ... I upgraded my brakes with the Prodrive Alcon 330 mm kit LONG before I did anything to the engine.
Oh, and BTW, they came with DS3000, and I was also one of the first people to warn others about the crap they leave on alloys and paint. Unlike you 3 days ago, I knew what devastating effect they could have, and would NEVER with a straight face recommend them to someone just looking for a simple upgrade.
Something else ... why do you recommend AP 4 pots ? Have you tried them all ? Just how much better are they than the Brembo kit or the Alcon kit ? Godspeed ? Move-it ?
Yes, trying to pamper your brakes & your car seems like a strange idea to you... but then it should, as you were the person admitting on the Dutch bbs to red mist and being 110 % competitive each time you get in the car. Some others are just trying to have fun. Difficult concept to grasp I suppose.
Waving around Stef's name is a bit silly too, as you were the one not believing the claims that were made about his Ring lap times - even though most of us had already seen him drive + the vid etc... yada yada. So now he is your guru ? The ultimate reason to buy AP ? Puh-lease... I specifically asked him to post on the Dutch bbs because you were spouting such nonsense about it all.
Look, I admit heavily disliking your style & posts on the Dutch BBS, but PLEASE do not come here and try to sound like you know it all and that learning how to drive the car you have (limitations and all) is a silly advice to give. Maybe I misunderstood, but I don't really think so.
I'm sure a lot of P1 and 22B owners will actually love your advice to Rebecca about the DS3000.
Very smart.
You wanna join here and have some good conversations ? Welcome then. You will find a lot of fellow cossie owners.
However, if you just want to continue your know-it-all stance from the Dutch bbs, please don't bother.
Theo
27 August 2001, 02:23 PM
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Umm Theo m8, no idea who Hielke Kerstma is and what he's done but you might be a little premature in flaming him IMHO.
You said <I>"Unlike you 3 days ago, I knew what devastating effect they could have, and would NEVER with a straight face recommend them to someone just looking for a simple upgrade."</I>
But in mitigation Hielke did say <I>Ferodo 3000. These have the highest friction coefficient of all pads, including the carbons. But as I said before, there is a downside. The wear of your disks will be horrific, as will be the production of dust. In case of the Ferodo 3000 the dust/steel debri will eat into your wheels agressively.
</I>
Also most people here have'nt tried every brake combo, they go on what people recommend.
BTW I don't agree with him re: brake lines, nor do I know of his other posts/attitude so I'm only judging on this one post and i'll reserve mine until I get more evidence to the contrary.
Dunno what I'm trying to say here, I guess chill out and have a beer or six
You said <I>"Unlike you 3 days ago, I knew what devastating effect they could have, and would NEVER with a straight face recommend them to someone just looking for a simple upgrade."</I>
But in mitigation Hielke did say <I>Ferodo 3000. These have the highest friction coefficient of all pads, including the carbons. But as I said before, there is a downside. The wear of your disks will be horrific, as will be the production of dust. In case of the Ferodo 3000 the dust/steel debri will eat into your wheels agressively.
</I>
Also most people here have'nt tried every brake combo, they go on what people recommend.
BTW I don't agree with him re: brake lines, nor do I know of his other posts/attitude so I'm only judging on this one post and i'll reserve mine until I get more evidence to the contrary.
Dunno what I'm trying to say here, I guess chill out and have a beer or six
27 August 2001, 03:31 PM
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Sorry Neil, I understand what you are saying ...
Just that I'm a bit allergic to people telling me what is right and what is wrong with the Scoob, especially if these people never owned or probably driven one.
The "17 second" comment was aimed at me, no doubt, and I find it a bit insulting. I'm the last person to brag about my driving skills (I basically suck
) but I don't need the calvinistic type of comments that I therefor should not upgrade the performance of my car. Especially since I've done the brake thing first.
BTW: a standard MY99 does 26 seconds to 200 km/h, not 18 ...
Compare it to me saying: "you should stop beating your wife". Very difficult to say something in return without getting very crossed.
But your chill comment is spot on I suppose, I'll go for the beers
Just that I'm a bit allergic to people telling me what is right and what is wrong with the Scoob, especially if these people never owned or probably driven one.
The "17 second" comment was aimed at me, no doubt, and I find it a bit insulting. I'm the last person to brag about my driving skills (I basically suck
) but I don't need the calvinistic type of comments that I therefor should not upgrade the performance of my car. Especially since I've done the brake thing first.BTW: a standard MY99 does 26 seconds to 200 km/h, not 18 ...
Compare it to me saying: "you should stop beating your wife". Very difficult to say something in return without getting very crossed.
But your chill comment is spot on I suppose, I'll go for the beers
27 August 2001, 04:31 PM
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No probs Theo
I just thought you'd graduated from the 'Harry Potter' school of evasive and cryptic meanings and answers
BTW You were spot on with your advice to Bex.
BBTW No where's my beer
I just thought you'd graduated from the 'Harry Potter' school of evasive and cryptic meanings and answers
BTW You were spot on with your advice to Bex.
BBTW No where's my beer
27 August 2001, 05:30 PM
#43
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For those people who didn't already know the Belgians suffered from a minority complex in respect to their neighbours in The North, well, you know it now :-)
Why are Belgians being burried with their heads pointing to The North? There is where the promised land lies.
I could have driven around Theo's remarks, just as I could have started braking half a mile before the corner, but naahh, there is no fun in that.
Hielke
Why are Belgians being burried with their heads pointing to The North? There is where the promised land lies.
I could have driven around Theo's remarks, just as I could have started braking half a mile before the corner, but naahh, there is no fun in that.
Hielke
27 August 2001, 06:11 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by sweet:
<B>in the UK also, most drivers will "upgrade" their cars in many other ways, so as to get more power, thereby stressing the limitations of the brakes even more. Does this matter? No, as long as you are not driving on a racing circuit, or as long you are not driving your car fast, this doesn't matter.
Driving around the limitations of your brakes whilst on a circuit?
Mmmm, not my style. A weird thing to do if you ask me. Not many people are satisfied with the power their car delivers. You won't see a considerable number of GTT owners driving around that. No, for some reason they can't live with the fact that their car cannot reach 0-200 km/h in 17 seconds, but needs 18 to do this. But they can live with the fact that when stressing their brakes to the limit these systems might almost fail totally, thereby endangering their, and other peoples lifes. A power deficit of 30 horse power when you are already talking 200 hp+ has never endangered someones life.
Rebecca, when your goal is to drive on circuits, then please go put your money where it is best invested. In the brakes of your car!
Hielke Kerstma[/quote]
Hielke ... what the hell do you think I'm doing???? Why do you think I was asking for advice ... as opposed to a lecture ....
first point - yes, my car is moreorless standard.
second point - yes, I have taken my car on track - twice. And what do you think the first "upgrade" I am doing to my car???? UPGRADING THE BRAKES
However, my goal as you put it on not to drive on circuits .... it's just that these days with so many speed cameras about ... driving on track is about the only place where you can have a bit of fun as far as speed is concerned. And yes, of course I'm very aware of my limitations as far as horsepower and brakes are concerned ... which is why I was generally found on the inside letting everybody else pass me. Believe me I'm very careful when on track.
But thank you for your 'advice'
Rebecca
<B>in the UK also, most drivers will "upgrade" their cars in many other ways, so as to get more power, thereby stressing the limitations of the brakes even more. Does this matter? No, as long as you are not driving on a racing circuit, or as long you are not driving your car fast, this doesn't matter.
Driving around the limitations of your brakes whilst on a circuit?
Mmmm, not my style. A weird thing to do if you ask me. Not many people are satisfied with the power their car delivers. You won't see a considerable number of GTT owners driving around that. No, for some reason they can't live with the fact that their car cannot reach 0-200 km/h in 17 seconds, but needs 18 to do this. But they can live with the fact that when stressing their brakes to the limit these systems might almost fail totally, thereby endangering their, and other peoples lifes. A power deficit of 30 horse power when you are already talking 200 hp+ has never endangered someones life.
Rebecca, when your goal is to drive on circuits, then please go put your money where it is best invested. In the brakes of your car!
Hielke Kerstma[/quote]
Hielke ... what the hell do you think I'm doing???? Why do you think I was asking for advice ... as opposed to a lecture ....
first point - yes, my car is moreorless standard.
second point - yes, I have taken my car on track - twice. And what do you think the first "upgrade" I am doing to my car???? UPGRADING THE BRAKES
However, my goal as you put it on not to drive on circuits .... it's just that these days with so many speed cameras about ... driving on track is about the only place where you can have a bit of fun as far as speed is concerned. And yes, of course I'm very aware of my limitations as far as horsepower and brakes are concerned ... which is why I was generally found on the inside letting everybody else pass me. Believe me I'm very careful when on track.
But thank you for your 'advice'
Rebecca
27 August 2001, 06:12 PM
#45
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Neil Smalley:
<B>
BTW You were spot on with your advice to Bex.
[/quote]
which bit of advice was that then Neil??
<B>
BTW You were spot on with your advice to Bex.
[/quote]which bit of advice was that then Neil??
27 August 2001, 06:49 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Dave T-S:
<B>Bex
Just listen to your old Muppet mates gal [/quote]
Dave,
keep hearing too many voices ... not sure which ones I'm meant to be listening to
<B>Bex
Just listen to your old Muppet mates gal
[/quote]Dave,
keep hearing too many voices ... not sure which ones I'm meant to be listening to
27 August 2001, 07:00 PM
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>>Why are Belgians being burried with their heads pointing to The North? There is where the promised land lies.
Hielke, as I told you in private mail, I'm Dutch actually
Now, I'm not gonna play your game any further (you have threatened me by email to "open the gates from hell"), and I think that would be of no use to this thread or Scoobynet in general.
However ... Bex, I was not trying to be pedant, male chauvinistic, etc... I was trying to convey "either buy the best kit you can - even if you have to save a few more months to get it - and be PREPARED to shell out more cash for the next upgrade - or be happy with what you have got".
"best kit you can" can be read as AP 4 pots...
Nothing confusing in that advice eh ?
I'm not talking theory here, just conveying what I found to be true. It (the upgrading) really never ends ...
Last thing on my mind was giving you a lecture ... you are way too smart for that.
I'm done now with this thread.
Spend your money wiseley
Theo [this should be in "Wheels, Tyres & Brakes BTW LOL ]
Hielke, as I told you in private mail, I'm Dutch actually
Now, I'm not gonna play your game any further (you have threatened me by email to "open the gates from hell"), and I think that would be of no use to this thread or Scoobynet in general.
However ... Bex, I was not trying to be pedant, male chauvinistic, etc... I was trying to convey "either buy the best kit you can - even if you have to save a few more months to get it - and be PREPARED to shell out more cash for the next upgrade - or be happy with what you have got".
"best kit you can" can be read as AP 4 pots...
Nothing confusing in that advice eh ?
I'm not talking theory here, just conveying what I found to be true. It (the upgrading) really never ends ...
Last thing on my mind was giving you a lecture ... you are way too smart for that.
I'm done now with this thread.
Spend your money wiseley
Theo [this should be in "Wheels, Tyres & Brakes BTW LOL ]
27 August 2001, 07:08 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EvilBevel:
<B>
However ... Bex, I was not trying to be pedant, male chauvinistic, etc... I was trying to convey "either buy the best kit you can - even if you have to save a few more months to get it - and be PREPARED to shell out more cash for the next upgrade - or be happy with what you have got".
Last thing on my mind was giving you a lecture ... you are way too smart for that.
I'm done now with this thread.
Spend your money wiseley
Theo [this should be in "Wheels, Tyres & Brakes BTW LOL ][/quote]
Theo ... think you need to look a little closer at my reply ... I wasn't inferring that you were the one giving me the lecture
neither do I think you've been patronising or being a pedant ...
you have certainly given me good advice ... just not that it helps ...
<B>
However ... Bex, I was not trying to be pedant, male chauvinistic, etc... I was trying to convey "either buy the best kit you can - even if you have to save a few more months to get it - and be PREPARED to shell out more cash for the next upgrade - or be happy with what you have got".
Last thing on my mind was giving you a lecture ... you are way too smart for that.
I'm done now with this thread.
Spend your money wiseley
Theo [this should be in "Wheels, Tyres & Brakes BTW LOL ][/quote]
Theo ... think you need to look a little closer at my reply ... I wasn't inferring that you were the one giving me the lecture
neither do I think you've been patronising or being a pedant ...
you have certainly given me good advice ... just not that it helps ...
27 August 2001, 07:38 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EvilBevel:
<B>>>you have certainly given me good advice ... just not that it helps ...
LOL. OK, fair point
[/quote]
unless of course you're volunteering to stump up the extra cash
<B>>>you have certainly given me good advice ... just not that it helps ...
LOL. OK, fair point
[/quote]
unless of course you're volunteering to stump up the extra cash
27 August 2001, 09:01 PM
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Theo, I E-mailed you in order to continue our discussion away from the BBS.
I hereby apologize to all the Belgian readers. They must have heard and read my joke a million times though. It was a silly thing for me to do.
Rebecca, did you already follow my instructions? Hurry up girl, do as I have ordered you to do :-)
Hielke
I hereby apologize to all the Belgian readers. They must have heard and read my joke a million times though. It was a silly thing for me to do.
Rebecca, did you already follow my instructions? Hurry up girl, do as I have ordered you to do :-)
Hielke
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