GaryC

Not rising to the rest of your tripe, but couldn't miss pointing out that your beloved 6.0 Aston engine only manages 66lb/ft per litre, and a 'pitiful' 76bhp/litre


...oh one other thing. Your alledged job at BMW in Bracknell - that will be BMW(GB) then? The same BMW(GB) that is a pure sales and marketing business? buying cars from BMW(AG) - the German business that develop and build the cars? The same BMW(GB) that have nothing to do with the design/manufacture of said cars?

bros2

And another thing - are BMWs better built than Aston Martins?

The straight answer is yes. I used to work for Ford, did the accounting for Jag and Aston Martin, and travelled up to Newport Pagnell regularly. You simply would not believe how appallingly badly some of the V-cars were built. Of course, bodies were smoothed out with lead filler before painting, but a rough Aston bodyshell was a thing of (non) wonder, and the electrics ..... bwahahaha.

The newer cars are better built than their predecessors, but better built than, say, a 7 series? No contest.

bros

co55ie

Yes gary that is correct GB ltd ellesfield Ave Bracknell You will note that Technical Training centre is actually situated on Lovelace road and not ellesfield avenue although there is a vehicle workshop at the ellsefield avenue site along with the parts Warehouse and main offices. You are actually wrong GB is a seperate company from BMW it controls the dealers etc etc and deals with problem issues etc etc. It is also used as a training facilty for both technical and sales staff. Would you like to know how many toilets there are there too ?
Are you jealous gary cause I have had more beemers driven more M5s and had more M3's etc etc than you will ever do in your life time and I didn't even have to pay for the petrol.
Damn they even paid for track days and high performance driving In the M cars.
All BMW's are things of NON WONDER.
[Edited by co55ie - 10/18/2002 9:20:32 PM]

[Edited by co55ie - 10/18/2002 9:36:36 PM]

polarbearit

Well I've nothing constructive to say so I'll add my point

I've never owned a 3 series or a cossie, but what is the point of comparing astons with BMW's or a Vauxhall 2.5 with a BMW 6.1, both designed for very different reasons. I'm sure if Maclaren wanted more torque they could have had it...

As far as I've heard the 330D is an excellent car (though with a slight company car image), with a fantastic balance of economy and performance, would make a great second car, but to be honest I'd probably go for the slower, bigger, greater depreciating, 530D as they are a little rarer!

Cossie - grow up! BMW don't really make cars that are directly comparable to Ford - If you want such a comparison then Ford has 2 marques which in some way compete - Volvo and Jaguar. Both relatively successful, but (AFAIK) whose combined sales are less than that of BMW alone.

polarbearit

And GaryC I'm sure you're aware that Skylines handle fantastically without the electronically controlled 4wd system, which infact the majourity of skylines don't have fitted (ie GTt and GTS), not like the Evo chassis which feels very artificial with AYC...

Jon
RB26 Powered

co55ie

exactly my point they are all designed for different things and price brackets.
But seriously BMW innovative engine builders and chassis constructers. Kings of the rep mobile maybe but nothing else.

GaryC

Jon - we'll have to agree to disagree. I've driven both GTS and GTR versions and they have great traction (especially GTR), good grip (ditto), but IMO don't handle well, and certainly not 'fantastic'.

Fantastic handling cars include Porsche 968CS, Porsche 911RS (993), E30 M3, Lotus Elise, most well set-up caterhams/westfields, Ferrari 550, Ruf CTR,... IMO, Skylines, and most japanese cars, are too artificial in feedback/'information' and have over light steering. The Skyline in particular also felt too heavy in both 'S' and 'R' guise. Not detracting that they are fantastic machine, the GT-R nothing short of awesome - but it is despite its chassis/underpinings not because of them.


Cossie I know you are blinkered (why else are you still bleating about the 'all conquering cossah' so vigourously?) and merely seeking to wind up, but which of these 'king of the rep mobiles' do the afore mentioned list of BMW engines appear in? and while we're at it, you still haven't pointed us in the direction of Ford/Cosworths NA 100bhp/litre engine?? nor been able to come up with an engine manufacturer that beats the power/litre or torque/litre of the same list of engines

Anyone with any knowledge about automotive design/technology/engineering will acknowledge BMWs USPs/strengths are suspension and engine building, hence why they are at the top of the class in more of their markets than they are not, and hence why Audi/VAG have just poached half the BMW suspension team. What information (or malice?) do you have on your 'former employer' to rebuke the opinion of the rest of the automotive world?

Richie1

One point I want to get cleared up is Co55ie's mention of BMW engines being crap and not very "innovative"


You do know that the engine of the year (2002) is the 4.4 litre engine from the 745

You do know that the 3.2 litre M engine won the best 3-4 litre class

You do know that the 3 litre petrol just beat the 3 litre diesel to win the 2.5-3 litre category for the 2nd year running. Even tho the diesel was a close 2nd to the petrol, BOTH engines were at least 60 points clear of their next rival ??


But I guess you are better at judging engines than an International panel of experts

co55ie

sorry but the handling statement is a joke. BMW produce average handling cars at best. You cannot begin to compare an E46 M3 with an EVO in this dept.
Yes I do keep banging on about cossies as you are aware none of the cars you mentioned Including the modified Porsche GT2 got even close to the 330bhp escos on the palmer track day. Even at the ten of the best - best handling car Escos beating all and everything fair and square. The performance of the M cars is more hot hatch if you want to think different thats up to you. LOL E36 repeatedly beaten by saxo's and 106's round track good BMW chassis on that M car LOL. Have you ever driven one of the ridiculous looking M1's total crap.
With regard to the 3 litre 4 litre rubbish How many other marques manufacture lumps of this ridiculous size only a few so not much competition there is there.
Sorry at the end of the day BMW is just a mass manufacturer of mediocre cars nothing more nothing less. They are dull as ditchwater and it seems to me that most people who have driven them tend to agree the handlings pants look at the focus thread.
Do you realise the huge sums paid for the reviews etc etc in magazines

co55ie

I also find it amusing that the BMW 3 series is the halfords and Max champion. The majority running round with cheap alloys blacked out windows peco exhuasts and booming stereos THE COUNCIL ESTATE PIMP MOBILE and you lot laugh at the Nova brigade. Can't wait to see the next batch of diesel Wideboy specials. LOL

900t16Aero

Co55ie,
The only reason they use 3 series now is because all the Peco's fell off there rusty Sierra's and Onion's, they had to find a car that wouldnt rust quicker than a rusty thing to put them on.

co55ie

You cant beat a quality peco on an onion can you.


[Edited by co55ie - 10/21/2002 1:43:56 AM]

GaryC

330hp Escort 'cossah' better than Porsche GT2 Do you need any further proof of this boy's loose grip of reality.

You are right though, no-one makes 3-4 litre engines...well execpt Audi, Merc, Vauxhall, Honda, BMW, SAAB, VW, Subaru, Toyota, Nissan, Lexus, Alfa Romeo, Porsche, Ferrari, Maserati, Jaguar, Volvo......


And you were going to tell us about Ford/Cosworths NA 100bhp/litre engine??
...and give us the list of all these engine makers that beat the power/litre or torque/litre of the list of BMW engines??

Richie1

Co55ie needs to remove his blinkers.

Trying to compare the handling of a RWD car with a 4WD car is just silly

co55ie

well then how do you explain that tiff the quiff was spanked in a modified Porsche GT2 by a 330bhp escos then. You will also note that an Escos whopped the Norris evo and skylines at the ten of the best meet in the handling lap times dept ?

Maybe you who's blinkered and paying over the odd's

I am not trying to compare a 4wd to a rwd I do not agree that BMW are engine and chassis meisters supreme.

With regard to your list of manufacturers gary there are very few variants there ie most saab engines are VX engines etc etc most saabs use the same drive trains as a VX. Saab is regarded as a quality brand isn't this then a huge contradiction seeing as though they use the VX 2.5 and 3.0 and VX uses the saab gearbox
Aernt Volvo and Ford and jaguar affiliated then aswell as toyota and lexus ? Thats halved your list allready.
A mondeo is rubbish according to you but has the same under pinnings and engines as the JAG which is not rubbish. You really are contradicting yourselves.

co55ie

Gary name me one BMW that was as innovative as the original Mini or has the presence or respect of a GT40 opposite ends of the market. You can't enough said
BMW epitomises mediocrity
Name a BMW Model that is revered you can't.

And regards to the plonka and quality of Aston Martin's does he realise that all the body panels are hand made unlike his executive BMW shed which was rolled of a production line. Still you wouldn't expect an accountant to know the difference would you.

GaryC

SAABs 3.0 V6 pre-dates GM involvement, and VX don't make a 3-litre V6 anymore - now 3.2, Volvo and Jag V6's are totally unconnected (both predating Ford's involvement). I will give you the Toyota and Lexus connection

Where have I ever said the Mondeo is rubbish? The Mondeo is class leading, has been in each of it's 3 guises. Indeed what makes the x-type so good is it's Mondeo-based underpinnings. Only the Passat is challenging the Mondeo in it's current form, and the Mondeo is without doubt the best 'on the road'...but both compete in a different market to the 3-series/A4/C-Class.

and the other questions...? or are you (not so) cleverly trying to make them go away by not answering? or perhaps their just arn't any of either? (ford 100hp/litre engines or higher bhp/torque per displacement than the BMW engines?)


You don't *really* think 330hp cossah can beat a GT2 do you?

GaryC

BMW innovation? First to use multi-link independant suspension? First with double-variable-intake (VANOS)? First to use floating brake discs? Current highest revving F1 engine? First with a 5 speed auto box and now first with a 6-speed autobox? do you want more....?

The GT40 wasn't innovative. Brilliant car, but big powerful low-tech engine in a (tiny) light body is not innovative.

carl

The GT40 was also more Lola than Ford

co55ie

So the Ford 3.O isnt used in the jag then ?
Wasn't Honda leading the way with variable valve timing ? Aernt Honda engines better enginered ?
Please name me one car that BMW has produced that as I said is as innovative as a mini or has the kudos of a GT40 you can't.
Infact name me one car that BMW have ever made that is even mentioned 5 minutes after they have stopped producing them. There isn't one as the cars are dull and have little following why is that.
With exception to the M3 cars a focus st170 produces more grunt than any BMW per litre including an M5 so whats your point ?

Richie1

Paying over the odds ?? How can I be paying over the odds in a £500 car which is all I have just now ??


Assumptions normally make an *** out of you and me but in this case, its just you



Seeing as you are constantly going on about the "10 of the best day" IIRC, the only cars to blow up at "10 of the Best" were Fords....

Nowt much to do with this post but thought I would chuck it in to get you all fiesty

MooseRacer

and Cossie, I hope you aren't making the rather childish mistake of confusing handling with road holding?

co55ie

I think you will find the norris evo give up the ghost and several skyline's blew their diffs at ten of the best.
The subaru's were way down the list if my memory serves me well all probably suffering from some bearing failiure or another.

Somebody please name me one remarkable car that BMW has made seems nobody can. My point is proven BMW = Mediocrity.
LOL I am also sure you are aware the the Zetec is also a more reliable engine than your BMW one too. Top Quality cars thise BMW's

MooseRacer

Zetec - LOLOLOLOLOLOL

So, your argument relies on:

GT40 - whats that, coming on for 40 years old?
Escort Cosworth - forgive me for not being exact, but thats got to be well over 10 years old, and the engine considerably older still.

So, you're trying to suggest what exactly? Ford used to make reasonable cars, yep I'd go along with that, they still do.

But I hardly think you can hold Ford up as shining examples of modern engine building prowess now, can you?

Richie1

Never really could cause they went to Cosworth for almost all the good engines....


As another point - The BMW 540i was reported to be the leader in its class for handling.....

MooseRacer

as is the 3 series that cossie seems to have such an inferiority complex about

co55ie

You can get an escort Cossie that is six years old which features the best 2.0 litre turbo engine to date bar none.

WOW the 5 series is a class leading barge that will be forgotten more quickly than the winner of pop rivals.

FACE IT YOU CANNNOT GIVE ME ONE EXAMPLE OF A REVERED BMW BECAUSE THERE IS NOT ONE.


The 3 series is not a class leader that goes to the mondeo a better car at a far more realistic price. Pound for Pound it wipes the floor.

So what if A GT40 is an old car name me a better BMW either old or new you can't.

How can you kid yourself that a rubbish 3 or 5 series is or ever was in the same league as an RS500 dream on. The point is you have absolutely no facts to support your dreadful little cars.
LOL 540i an automotive icon that in 40 years everyone will look back on and remember and aernt they are ready worth a bout 500 quid for a new one I know that hairdryer M5 is. Don't all BMW's look like Montego's.
MY Cosworth engine cost more than your crumby 330 diesel rep mobiles. What a bunch of Jokers. You have no hard fact to back up your arguements isn't it time you all got back to selling what ever you have to sell in your lowly paid jobs.

co55ie

Think Ford think GT40 cobra cosworth RS escorts mk 1 and 2 RS focus
Think Jag think E type
Mercedes think Gullwing and that awesome clk costing 1,000,000
Think BMW and think dull rep mobile and unsuccessful middle management. Even TVR ditched the naff BMW engines as soon as they bought Rover. Strange they couldn't come up with a mini of there own and have even managed to ruin this icon with there dull as funk german engineering. Germans are not really noted for their style or flair are they .

ROFLMAO

cookiemonster

LOL

> Think Ford think GT40 cobra cosworth RS escorts mk 1 and
> 2 RS focus

maybe you do, but sorry mate, to me and the vast majority of folk its "think ford, think rusty fiesta"

you gotta larff

RichieB

Co55ie....ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ ZZZZZZZZZ