Eagle7

Modern WRC is great to watch, and seems to be better as a spectator sport than in the past, but I agree with alcazar that the attraction of it used to be that you could buy a car on the road that was pretty damn close to the one winning rallys.

Bring back homologation rules!

The thing is, the cars will keep getting more and more away from public models until you end up with cars that have no relation to what is available to Joe public, and theres a name for that. It's called Formula 1!

I dont want to own a car just because that manufacturer wins some rallys (or i could have a 106, a justy or a fiesta!). I want to own a car that is near as dammit to that rally car! Thats why people bought first generation scoobys and Evos and thats why i have a first gen scooby.

[Edited by Eagle7 - 10/11/2002 2:48:04 AM]

astraboy

As far as I'm concerned, Modern rally cars are great to watch. The sheer speed and manner in which these cars are thrown around is, when you really think about it, nothing short of astounding.
However, I can agree with the original point about too much money in the sport. I'm all for a bit of carbon fibre, but these semi automatic gearboxes are a bit of a copout in my opinion.
However, if they make the car faster then I suppose it should be included. I can agree with the ordinary man not being able to compete is a shame, but there is always gp.N if you want to compete. I wouldnt watch gp.N becuase its dull as anything compared to WRC.
astraboy.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Agree with Eagle7.
Even back in the days of the group B cars, Ford had to make 200 of the "RS200" before they were allowed to rally it.
What I wouldn't have given for one of those beasties?
The kit car version is still the first car I'd buy myself if I win the Lotto!
Alcazar

darkblueturbo

saw a bit of the UK Rallycross championship on Sky the other day.

This guy had an old RS200 and 'opened a can of whoopass' all over the rest of the field. Absolutely amazing little buggers.

Agree with you on winning the lotto!

johnfelstead

you can buy RS200's for not so stupid money. It's paying for them when they go wrong thats the killer!

darkblueturbo

and insuring them!

and not getting your licence ripped to shreds by the old bill!

Claudius

Well, screw them, then!


I agree with scoobynutter555 that rallying has become too distant from the road cars we get.

I agree with John that the purpose is to sell shïtty mainstream cars, that the money isnt with selling a few high performance cars.

However, IMHO, a manufacturer should have a representation of his rally car on the road, such as the Impreza turbo, the Lancer Evo, the Delta Integrale, etc. Peugeot, Skoda et al. only gives us crap. Fu ck that! Gimme fast road cars, compete and make them faster. What's this crap about the sccobies and Evos being so similar in spec over all these years? If Subaru comes out with 280bhp in another market than the Japanese, then Mitsu should top that with 300, if Mitsu come out with better brakes, then Subaru should fit AP 6 pots as std, even for £1000 more, then Mitsu should make the Evo faster by changing suspension or adding whatever, etc. It's so damn boring right now

Manufacturers, cut out the BS and gimme fast road cars, not talk, and make them better every year. That's what I say, gentlemen.

alcazar

iTrader: (2)

Hey, well said Claudius, I knew you were a top guy, despite your other persona on another similar BBS (
AS regards the RS200, doesn't it still hold the record for 0-60mph for a production roadcar?

uxg

I totally agree with Claudius for a change.

I realise that the WRC is now a very different thing and it is unrealsitic for us to expect otherwise but like Claudius says the companies should try to make rally car replicas with at least some passing resemblance to the WRC car. I do not think this would be a waste of time for the manufacturer's. After all where would Subaru be if it didn't have the 4WD Turbo in it's model range?

I also agree with the fact that these cars should be improved on year on year. I am sorry but in my opinion the STi 7 or the Evo 7 isn't an improvement on the olders models. I realise they have better build quality and a nicer interior but this isn't why I and probably alot of other people buy a rally rep. If I wanted that I'd have bought a 3 series BMW again. Better performance, brakes and improved handling is what we are after.

So come on all you WRC manufacturer's. Lets see some more 2 litre turbocharged jobbies for us to get our teeth into. You know it makes sense

scoobynutta555

regarding the record the rs200 had, i think it was the 0-100-0 record. It took it off the lotus carlton, and recently on a motoring program a twin bike engined car took the record, though it later blew up. There were a few varients of the rs200, but i dont think that u can get them for reasonable money as previously suggested, well reasonable to my wallet lol

J4MES

Some interesting points been made here.
At WRC level the cars still resemble standard production cars, albeit bewinged and slightly(?!) wider than normal but surely that is not the point.
You go to see the worlds best drivers, in the latest cars with all the gadgets, at ten tenths. In my mind nothing compares to watching a WRC event.
Getting to a makeshift car park in the middle of Wales the night before, watching the impromptu fireworks displays, enjoying the craic with a group of like minded people.
Trudging for miles into the stage, in the dark, to your favourite secret spot, or walking 'just round this next corner' to see what gem of a viewing spot might be lurking.
The excited banter of the waiting masses as dawn breaks and the course cars start to come through. Picking the line that you think the crews are going to take until you have it jsut right and could do it in your sleep. The tales of derring do, the **** taking.
The anticipation of the first car. The sound of marshals whistles in the distance, getting louder as they trace the cars passage through the stage. The silence just before all hell breaks loose as the worlds best comes into view, on the limit. Sideways, always sideways. The chirp of the wastegate, the crackle and pop of the anti-lag, 2nd gear, 3rd gear, 4th, gear, 5th gear, flat out, snacthing 6th just as they disappear over a crest. No sign of lifting, no tell tale flash of the brake lights.
That is the point of rallying is all about.

But I agree that the essence of rallying has been lost with the development of the modern WRC, Bill Bloggs from Bill Bloggs' Garage in a car he has built and payed for can no longer compete on the same stages, in the same event, as the world champion.

I also agree that Group N cars are boring. They sound ****e, except for the odd crackle from the anti-lag. They don't go sideways very well, and they are dangerous for spekkies as you can't hear them coming.
Give me a Mk1/Mk2 Escort with a BDA in it, or an F2 kit car or something with a bit of life in it, some noise, some raw aggression.

Get out and have a shufty at The Bulldog Rally on October the 19th, the traditional warm up for the RAC. There are some decent crews out, a huge variety of machinery includng the histerics. Probably the best entry and variety on a national event all year.
Oh yeah, and us at car 164! feel free to walk alongside and have a chat as we crawl painfully slowly up the hills!

SUNDAY DRIVER

J4mes.
You just hit the nail on the head there.

uxg

I don't disagree that as a spectical the WRC is pretty exciting (infinately more so than Formula 1 at the moment IMO). The point I am making is that it would be nice if some of this WRC excitement were to carried over to the general masses. Subaru and Mitsubishi have done quite a good job (although they have lost there way a bit in the last year or two). It would be nice to see more of the same from some of the other manufacturers with more technology brought over and more effort put into this rather than making the "cloth on the seats" feel nicer so all us wannabe rally drivers can have our fun and the manufacturers can raise the profile of their lesser models.

That is why I liked the homogolation rules. It meant all us enthusiasts got proper cars. After all if it wasn't for these rules back then, think of all the classic rally and racing icons which would have never seen the light of day on public roads otherwise which in turn paved the way for the Scoobies\Evo's of today.

J4MES

Ok, bring homologation back and watch the manufacturers disappear in an instant. It was prohibitively expensive to produce enough cars to meet the requirements of homologation and the cars that did get released were stupidly expensive and often nothing like the rally car anyway.
For example, the 205T16 road car had under 200bhp I think. Would you buy a 6R4 type car if it was released at around £25-30k and needed an engine rebuild every 1000 miles? Just for the sake of homologation and a link with rally cars and road cars? Homologation specials will always be massively expensive and out of reach of most of us so what is the point?
Even Mitsubishi have shyed away from the Group A rules of building 5000(?) road going versions of their cars. Maybe it was so that they could be more competitive but its got to be costly. OK, they may be able to sell triple that but look how specialised EVO's are and how expensive they are to run, because of homologation.
Skodas next World Rally Car is rumourder to be the Fabia. A 300bhp, flame spitting, 4wd, turbo-charged, fully active Skoda Fabia!! With MASSIVE bumpers no doubt!
Skoda is probably the most succesful manufacturer in the rallying world, with hudreads of wins during its long association with the sport. Their cars were always very similar to their road going counterparts but did anyone rush out to buy a Skoda because they were winning rallies? No, people just made up more jokes about them.