mutant_matt

To my knowledge there are two ways. The first is to very gently and slowly start lifting off and hopefully your tyres are not already fully loaded up and you have a little margin that you can use up. This may get you out of trouble.

The second is left foot braking whilst still on the power. This is extremely hard to get right and needs to learnt (and practised on a private road/airfield/track etc.). Unless you have this technique down properly, you will almost certainly fall off the road so is for most people (including myself), not the answer.

Like has already been said, the only foolproof way of avoiding this is to go in slower. Several years ago, I unlocked the secret to riding my bike fast round corners by slowing down more, getting in the right gear and getting the bike settled before turn in. This made all the difference. From this point on, you can start to accelerate (even if it is only a little bit) all the way round the turn and can carry far more corner speed which equated to much more exit speed, which you will carry all the way down the next straight. I could then keep up with friends who were way faster than me and left behind other friends who used to be the same speed as me (mostly ride bikes in groups ).

Of course, this all translates perfectly to the car. Slower is faster, less is more

Matt

RB5320

if all else fails put your foot on the clutch, equalising the speed of all 4 wheels, which should bring the car back under control (if you are not already in the hedge!). should be seen as a last resort though.

johnfelstead

If you are getting lift off oversteer mid corner because of a panic situation then you need to do something that doesnt come naturally, and to be honest, most people simply wont be able to force themselves to do it, because their brain will be overloaded with "oh ****, i am going to die" thoughts.

Just think about whats going on for a second, you have gone in too fast, so you crap your pants and jump off the throttle, onto the brakes even and the back end comes round. Your direction of travel is still forward and off the road, but your facing backwards or side on to the direction of travel. Using the brakes wont change your direction, it may slow you and if you are lucky stop you leaving the road, but you are still going in the direction that the momentum of the car is traveling. So what do you have at your disposal to change the direction? Simple answer is engine power/steering. The only way to change where you end up is to use the throttle and pull yourself out of the slide. You will be amazed at how sideways you can pull an impreza out of a slide from, you just need the confidence to do it and the inbuilt knowledge of what to do.

The reality of situations like this is you need this kind of action to be a reflex action rather than a thought process, and the only way you get to that state is to practice where it is open and safe.

Driving is an artform/skill we dont teach people, we teach people how to pass a driving test and learn how to potter along. The best investment you will ever make is to spend a day with a good driving coach such as don palmer. Note i didnt say driving teacher/instructor or advanced driving instructor, because they dont teach you how to control a car. Go spend time with a coach, you will learn more in a day than you could possibly imagine.

johnfelstead

never put your clutch in mid slide! You will be in deap $hit and have no control over the car using the throttle! Thats very bad advice!

mutant_matt

I'd just like to backup John's comments. I did the 1st Lotus training day @ North Weald Airfield in Feb and learnt to get my Scoob into and out of 80mph, 45 degree, full throttle slides. I've never really got a car anywhere near properly sideways like that before (even on a track where I'm usually trying to go fast, not sideways (unlike that fool Felstead )).

Hopefully now I've got the hang of it, and like John said, it's now a refex reaction, it may one day save me from having a big crash!! That along with steering technique, left foot braking, heel & toe and others, it was probably the best £95 I'll ever spend on "performance mods" Highly recommended.

BTW, John is also right that the IAM/RoSPA/Advanced Driving courses do not teach you this kind of stuff, only about safe and smooth (with fast as a subtext ) driving on the roads. I have done both and recommend both, but for different reasons.

Ta,

Matt

mutant_matt

I concur. IIRC, the amount of traction a wheel has in different states is:

Best - driven
braking
worst - freewheeling

On a bike, if you pull in the clutch mid bend it's like someone all of a sudden sprayed some diesel on the road...

Matt

[Edited by mutant_matt - 10/15/2002 6:00:08 PM]

Dave T-S

I've just been on a 50 mile cross country blat in atrocious conditions (rural potholed roads, covered in mud/leaves and standing water everywhere plus pouring with rain) - managed to see off a spiritedly driven VX220 on the way - and with this thread in mind was doing a bit of thinking/experimenting

You can't overcome physics. The STi is a very heavy car at 1470kg, and a large lump of that is at the front. When you go barreling into a bend still on the brakes you will be transferring even more weight to the front. Then expecting the loaded front tyre to take probably half the car's weight and corner plus provide traction too is too much to expect and you will just arrive at a very nasty slip angle, i.e. understeer.

Having owned a MY00 with OEM RE010's, then S02's; then a WRX on standard suspension and standard RE011's, subsequently modded to Leda suspension, 18's and S03's, then the STi, I think the biggest no no for an STi on standard or aftermarket tyres is to go into a bend in the wet on the brakes for the above reasons. Do all the braking in a straight line, allow the nose of the car to come up and unload the outside tyre, then slow in, fast out. If you get it right, as has been said, you can accelerate through the bend and feel the Suretrac diff pull the front round. Very satisfying when it works! - I never saw the VX220 again

The first time I drove an STi I said a number of them would be going through hedges backwards - they are a much different animal to my previous Imprezas, you have to work harder to get more out, but you do ultimately get more out.

This isn't a preaching post, it's all IMHO and in the interests of being helpful

Barnaby

Considering the weather I think a VX220 has nerve to even be out on the road!

russell hayward

If you turn in while still on the brakes, then you are trading off grip for turning the car in, with grip for slowing the car.

Maximum grip from the font tyres occurs under load, so as Dave says the best time to turn in is just after coming off the brakes. Front tyres nicely loaded up and giving maximum grip for turning.

johnfelstead

to get the best out of the car you shouldnt brake in a straight line, come off the brakes and then turn in.

Thats the way lots of people teach driving both on road and track, but its actually slower than keeping some weight over the front tyres as you start the turn in transition.

The problem is it's hard to explain how much weight and at what point you should bleed off the brake force by what rate because it varies corner to corner. So to be simple and safe it's taught as off the brakes then turn in and increase power at the apex.

I use a lot of trail braking where you are on the brakes all the way to the apex in some corners, not all, it depends on the corner. All corners though you should still have some brake aplied as you start the turn in phase as this keeps weight on the tyre and aids its initial bite. If you are starting your turn just as you come right off the brakes you are unloading the front tyres and reducing their grip just when you want them to be loaded up. Explaining this is very dificult because the forces are constantly changing. What you are trying to achieve is to keep the tyre close to its max available G. It only has an certain level of grip and this is a combination of its lateral and longitudinal forces. If you are using 100% of forward grip you have nothing left to turn, likewise if you are 100% turning force you have nothing for braking or accelerating.

Race drivers use analysys of this to maximise lap times, using a G-G Diagramme and the best race drivers can keep the tyre right near the 100% of available G in all transition states.

if you look at this GG diagram comparing the same car/tyre with two drivers you can see how the race driver has smooth load transitions and keeps the tyre more at its max G throughout the brake/corner/acelerate phases, where as the road driver uses the traditionally taught come off the brakes then turn then apply power, this way is safe but not as efective as the race driver method. The road car driver method induces more understeer because you arent using the tyre grip to it's max.

I hope i dont sound like i am talking bollox, it's a fascinating subject and easier to talk about that put into practice.

Barnaby

The top one looks like a map of the Cambridge one-way system

uxg

Does anyone know of or can recommend any places or courses where we can actually get taught or practice some of these skills. I know one or two have been mentioned but does anyone have any more details. I don't know about other people but I would definately like to learn more about how to drive my Scooby properly.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

John,
so brake gently into and slightly through the corner so the front tyres dig in a little (not enough for the rear to go light and twitchy) then add power gently to exit?

Tony

hawkeye

Get yourself to Falkland Performance Centre for a geometry set up had mine done yesterday, still can't believe the difference.


Exceeeellllaaaaantttt smithers

Hawkeye

johnfelstead

No Tony.

The turn in phase is all about bleeding the brakes off at an apropriate rate for that particular corner, you could have the car on its nose with the rear wheels off the ground before the turn in phase, the important bit is how you manage the front tyre load as you start the turn so you are not overloading the tyre by asking it to go past its maximum available grip.

The one thing it isnt is a steady state percentage force, the amount of braking force and turning force is varying all the time through its transition from forward motion to cornering to exiting.

Of course all this goes out of the window if you start to introduce weight shifting into the equation, such as what i was doing at the hairpin at dono on the SIDC day, there i was using the inertia of the car/power to steer the car through the corner with full oposite lock, rather than a traditional method of using front tyre control as the control method. It's a complex subject, which is why you are taught to brake in a straight line, as that is easy to explain and relatively safe. (but it does induce understeer, which in the whole is safe)

The only person i have first hand experience of is Don Palmer, he is an excellent coach.

Dave T-S

John
I don't actually disagree with you, and on my normal daily roads that I know well I do sometimes brake into the turn if I am pressing on a bit, even in the wet.

It's just in this case i'm not practicing what I preach (or maybe preaching what I practice) as I wouldn't recommend it to an STi7 owner if I didn't know their capabilities as I don't want them to make a neat STi shaped hole in a hedge near them - caution is the best approach.

I still don't think the STi responds particularly well to going deep into corners in the wet with the outside wheel loaded up anyway - particularly on OEM tyres - if you are trying to get the highest speed in to/out of a corner on the road it reduces the safety margin as it only wants a few extra leaves or fresh mud on a corner you think you know well and you can overstep the mark - too late then!

I prefer to err on the side of caution and get the car home in one piece

[Edited by Dave T-S - 10/16/2002 2:38:49 PM]

johnfelstead

This is why i say the traditional method is taught, because its pretty easy to understand and although not the fastest way, its pretty safe.

It's very hard to get accross the levels of load i am talking about because they change depending on the particular corner, camber, road condition, speed, car you drive, tyres you use.

I am not suggesting people start trying to drive diferently on the road and throw away what they have programmed into themselves, i am saying there is a better way of doing things if you are prepared to spend the time developing your level of understanding.

The last thing i want is to see anyone stuff their car. It is good to have someone show you alternatives that if taught properly is actually safer once you get your head round it properly, which is the aim of this info.

If you want to understand limit handling of your car and improve your safety margin in which you drive, practice off the road until it becomes an unconcious action. If you are thinking conciously about how much brake to apply etc then you are doing it wrong. I find it very hard to explain to people how i drive, because i am not thinking about it, i am thinking about whats coming next and what i want to do with the car rather than how i am going to do it.

I would probably make a crap driving coach.

Dave T-S

John
What you are trying to say, cutting a Felstie novel down to one line , is that once you know your car well it becomes a subconscious thing and thus seat of the pants driving

johnfelstead

Not quite.

What i am saying is in order to get the most out of your package sometimes you have to replace your subconcious with a diferent programme based on experimantation, so your seat of the pants is based on a diferent map in your brain. Ultimately yes, you are driving by the seat of your pants and not conciously making decisions.

It's like with the STi7, the way the front diff works alters your driving style, at first you have to play with it to see what it will do, eventually you are no longer trying to find how it reacts, you just dont think about it, it just happens.

This is where the fun starts with cars like the typeRA i own, as that has 3 LSD's and the centre/front one alters how it works significantly when you change the centre diff bias (even the brake bias changes as you alter the centre diff bias), to get the most out of it you have to have multiple maps in your brain and have experimented to build up the programme and fine tune it.

BOBBY G

Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread.
There has been some very helpful advice so far.
Can I just say though, that I already know all the stuff about how to drive the Scoob. Like many of you out there, I consider myself to be a good driver, and reasonably experienced. I kept an Elise mk2 for a year and 20000 miles in hail,rain, and snow....and It went away from me to it's new owner in one piece....That counts for something right??

I have done all the sideways action etc. right from the days of my humble GTI-6.

So, keep all that good advice flowing guys, and would the "ladies" please start a "I'm a better driver than you" Thread please.

EMS

I think it´s due to the RE040 tyres! I heard from a Subaru dealer overhere who drives the STi7 that the RE040 are very bad in wet conditions. I drove the car only once for a short time in the wet and I also think there wasn´t much grip, I didn´t get understeer because I reduced the corner entry speed.

However I must say I do like the handling of the STi7! It´s MUCH better than the old shape Turbo and the "normal" WRX. I must say it comes close to the EVO5 RS I drove for about a year. (the giant steering wheel however doesn´t help for a good handling) With a little more torque out of the engine, powerslides are no problem in the dry.

Mark.

Phil Harrison

..... Links to the driving courses, anyone.....??

Phil

mutant_matt

1st Lotus do North Weald (Essex) and Crail (Scotland) and is top value for money. When I did it it was £95 per person when you get four peolpe together. This is about the right number and gives you all the time you need.

The Don Palmer courses are probably better (not done one yet) but I would think it unlikely they are as good VFM!

Matt

Dave T-S

Bobby
I certainly wasn't having a go at your driving, and given your driving record I would get your geometry checked for starters.

I also had a GTi-6 for 30,000 or so miles - good fun, and teaches you all about tail happy twitchy cars on the limit, eh?

Mind you, my Astra GSi was a sight worse LOL

EMS
I have found the RE040 remarkably good in the wet - given its tread pattern and apparent fairly hard compound, it is better than it ought to be!

jimg

Well Bob,
It seems like most people think your driving is pants!: tyres, geometry, or pants driving! personally I think its a combination of pants driving and pants car.
Jim

Andy W

jimg go an annoy another BB if you have nothing useful to say

ex-webby

jimg

Those kind of comments don't add anything to ScoobyNet. Feel free to contribute in a constructive manner and you will be very welcome here.

All the best

webamster

Dave T-S

And just to add, the STi is without a doubt more difficult to get that last 5% out of than the WRX, and will bite you harder if things all go pear shaped, but that last 5% is way ahead of the WRX.....

[Edited by Dave T-S - 10/12/2002 12:25:45 PM]