Whats this "Plus Member" thing??
14 October 2002, 06:53 PM
#154
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I dont like Avatras/sigs whatever, they look messy and make BBS's look less smart/serious, the RSOC one is a good example of a mess. Why dont you just stick with just the little 'plus member' wording in the left hand comumn? Looks quite smart and does the job.
Edit to say...
P.S. to Webby.....Walking out of WH Smiths on Sat and they had a new display of Guiness world records 2003 by the counter,the 'customer flick through copy' was open on the automotive records pages....your entry caught me eye, nice one!
[Edited by Nat21 - 10/14/2002 7:15:03 PM]
Edit to say...
P.S. to Webby.....Walking out of WH Smiths on Sat and they had a new display of Guiness world records 2003 by the counter,the 'customer flick through copy' was open on the automotive records pages....your entry caught me eye, nice one!
[Edited by Nat21 - 10/14/2002 7:15:03 PM]
14 October 2002, 07:30 PM
#156
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anything other than a user name is pointless- post counts, avatras, sigs etc...all of them.
these are the big gold chains or mobile phone holsters of the virtual world, they are for people who spend far to long at their pc and begin to confuse their number of posts with their place in socioety as a whole. corners are another example of this silly attempt to live out your life through a pc (buy a pack of cards and talk to another human if you want a simple game..dobt post corners)
a survey should be done and anyone who values their post count, sig, etc should be sent to a special forum where they could converse with like minded weirdos and leave the rest of us free to engage with each other while still maintaing a healthy use of the outside world.
imo
T
these are the big gold chains or mobile phone holsters of the virtual world, they are for people who spend far to long at their pc and begin to confuse their number of posts with their place in socioety as a whole. corners are another example of this silly attempt to live out your life through a pc (buy a pack of cards and talk to another human if you want a simple game..dobt post corners)
a survey should be done and anyone who values their post count, sig, etc should be sent to a special forum where they could converse with like minded weirdos and leave the rest of us free to engage with each other while still maintaing a healthy use of the outside world.
imo
T
14 October 2002, 07:32 PM
#157
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Simon, you might have forgot IanW was a moderator because he doesn't do anything... he is to busy looking through his sunroof!
On a serious note I appreciate the effort that goes into keeping Scoobynet running, I may not know the full extent but I appreciate none the less.
Even if I am persecuted by some moderators in the Southern forum for suggesting a drive to Scotland from Guildford!
On a serious note I appreciate the effort that goes into keeping Scoobynet running, I may not know the full extent but I appreciate none the less.
Even if I am persecuted by some moderators in the Southern forum for suggesting a drive to Scotland from Guildford!
14 October 2002, 07:42 PM
#159
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Mark
thanks for pointing out that you've been around for so much longer than this spring chicken. I'm sure you spent pretty much EVERY SINGLE NIGHT and weekend working on it FOR ABSOLUTELY NO FINANCIAL REWARD AT ALL during those years.
For the last 2 years that I've run scoobynet, paying it's costs, and spending countless (and I really mean countless) hours working on software, paying for servers, software, badwidth which is not always covered by the revenue generated by the banners, supporting bad debts with my own personal money, paying up front for insurances, licenses, solicitors, etc in the hope that the ad revenue will pay me back at some point (then forgetting about it), spending EVERY holiday I've had in the last 2 years working on scoobynet software / bug fixing / upgrading software / thinking about new ways of making it better, worrying about legal action that is threatened on a fairly regular basis, and the working almost every single night of the last six months trying to put together something that will be of huge benefit to YOU, the vendors and scoobynet (hopefully giving it a bit of an income to allow for someone to run the accounts (which I currently do), answering the 150 or so emails a day (which I currently do), chasing advertisers for banner ad payments (which I currently do) montoring the server (which I currently do), etc, etc, etc...
If I was in this for the money, I would be the biggest fool alive!
Grow up Mark.
Regards
Simon
14 October 2002, 08:19 PM
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Just my opinion but do we need all this extra downloading when we open a screen. I aint got broadband , I have seen these pictures on other BBS and it just detracts from the board IMHO, even the little pictures on the left which I agree with JF look totallly naff. This thread is proof as is diffcult to read as there are so many graphics, fonts, colours .
Different colour for the different members username eg.
Webmaster - Red
Moderator - Blue
Plus member - Gold
Scooby regular - Green
Scooby Newbie - Black
[Edited by chrisp - 10/14/2002 8:20:09 PM]
, I have seen these pictures on other BBS and it just detracts from the board IMHO, even the little pictures on the left which I agree with JF look totallly naff. This thread is proof as is diffcult to read as there are so many graphics, fonts, colours . Different colour for the different members username eg.
Webmaster - Red
Moderator - Blue
Plus member - Gold
Scooby regular - Green
Scooby Newbie - Black
[Edited by chrisp - 10/14/2002 8:20:09 PM]
14 October 2002, 08:26 PM
#163
Beef
PLEASE tell me that was a joke.
OK.. so it looks like even the avatars are out then!!
PLEASE let me hang on to the little PLUS MEMBER icons though! It won't make a spot of difference to download times and it took me ages to write the code!! (joke - before someone say "come off it.. it would only take 3 minutes and 29.6 seconds to write that code).
The coloured text thing is a good idea chris
All the best
Simon
PLEASE tell me that was a joke.
OK.. so it looks like even the avatars are out then!!
PLEASE let me hang on to the little PLUS MEMBER icons though! It won't make a spot of difference to download times and it took me ages to write the code!!
(joke - before someone say "come off it.. it would only take 3 minutes and 29.6 seconds to write that code).The coloured text thing is a good idea chris
All the best
Simon
14 October 2002, 08:35 PM
#164
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No, I was quite serious.
From my experience, running a BB seems only to be as much work as you make it. I run the BB at http://www.sxoc.com/vbb (ignore the main pages - a new site is being written at the moment), and while compared to SN we're probably quite small, the effort required to keep the BB going has been very small. We shift something like 35GB a month, have a million page view a month, yet all of our costs are totally covered by the members and the advertiser (singular at the moment).
I was just suprised when you said how much time it's taken to run, when I set up our BB in 5 hours and have had to do nothing major to it since. True, it's due an upgrade, but even that'll take less than an afternoon.
From my experience, running a BB seems only to be as much work as you make it. I run the BB at http://www.sxoc.com/vbb (ignore the main pages - a new site is being written at the moment), and while compared to SN we're probably quite small, the effort required to keep the BB going has been very small. We shift something like 35GB a month, have a million page view a month, yet all of our costs are totally covered by the members and the advertiser (singular at the moment).
I was just suprised when you said how much time it's taken to run, when I set up our BB in 5 hours and have had to do nothing major to it since. True, it's due an upgrade, but even that'll take less than an afternoon.
14 October 2002, 10:06 PM
#165
OK Beef
With all due respect (and I mean that.. this is just to explain the difference) that is like comparing running a corner news agent to running WH Smiths.
ScoobyNet has over 18 TIMES the traffic you quoted. We have also learnt from bitter experience the need for things like solicitors and insurances. Have you put your first tax return in yet? Is it a limited company? How much to you pay your accountants a year? Are you VAT registered (because your costs are so high you need to charge enough to warrant it)? What franction of 150 emails a day do you have to answer? How much forethought and planning has gone in to securing the site for the future so all of the 18,000 members (maybe 8,000 active) plus the estimated 50,000 regular readers and over 100,000 estimated once monthly readers plus the 100's of thousands of casual viewers will still have access to all of the information that you had taken on the responsibility to provide?
Did you write your own software because none of the software available at the time had the right combination of attributes available whilst still being able to cope with the huge traffic we had then and was expecting in the next 12 months?
Does your website have the responsibility, that it not only provided the vehicle to launch a number of highly successful companies but also then provides a platform for a number of smaller businesses to survive?
Did you decide a long time ago that you would make sure the forum remained free of charge for the members to use, and not have the backing of club in order to fund part of it's costs?
I'm not trying to be clever, just pointing out that you wouldn't go up to the manager of sainsbury's and say "You could run your company on 2 staff like I run my market stall!"
Just because it's called a BBS, or just because it's a company, that surely doesn't mean they take the same ammount of time and money to run?
All the best
Simon
With all due respect (and I mean that.. this is just to explain the difference) that is like comparing running a corner news agent to running WH Smiths.
ScoobyNet has over 18 TIMES the traffic you quoted. We have also learnt from bitter experience the need for things like solicitors and insurances. Have you put your first tax return in yet? Is it a limited company? How much to you pay your accountants a year? Are you VAT registered (because your costs are so high you need to charge enough to warrant it)? What franction of 150 emails a day do you have to answer? How much forethought and planning has gone in to securing the site for the future so all of the 18,000 members (maybe 8,000 active) plus the estimated 50,000 regular readers and over 100,000 estimated once monthly readers plus the 100's of thousands of casual viewers will still have access to all of the information that you had taken on the responsibility to provide?
Did you write your own software because none of the software available at the time had the right combination of attributes available whilst still being able to cope with the huge traffic we had then and was expecting in the next 12 months?
Does your website have the responsibility, that it not only provided the vehicle to launch a number of highly successful companies but also then provides a platform for a number of smaller businesses to survive?
Did you decide a long time ago that you would make sure the forum remained free of charge for the members to use, and not have the backing of club in order to fund part of it's costs?
I'm not trying to be clever, just pointing out that you wouldn't go up to the manager of sainsbury's and say "You could run your company on 2 staff like I run my market stall!"
Just because it's called a BBS, or just because it's a company, that surely doesn't mean they take the same ammount of time and money to run?
All the best
Simon
14 October 2002, 10:08 PM
#166
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Please, no avatars 
I'm sure Saxo Boy will back me up -- the Saxo Sports Club BBS looks very amateurish.
TBH I don't see why it's necessary to announce
members at all. Fine, use colours for moderators, etc. because the rest of us need to know who they are. But it doesn't say 'TESCO CLUB CARD MEMBER' on any of my credit cards, and I don't sign any of my correspondence with that either
Basically the gold logo/username bit just shows you've paid £25 for a discount card. Who needs to know?
Now a gold medallion for people who stumped up for the Scoobynews CD -- that I would be interested in
(Actually I got a refund for it, but I thought I'd get it in...)
PS: The manager of Sainsburys doesn't claim not to make a profit, though
[Edited by carl - 10/14/2002 10:12:06 PM]
I'm sure Saxo Boy will back me up -- the Saxo Sports Club BBS looks very amateurish.
TBH I don't see why it's necessary to announce
members at all. Fine, use colours for moderators, etc. because the rest of us need to know who they are. But it doesn't say 'TESCO CLUB CARD MEMBER' on any of my credit cards, and I don't sign any of my correspondence with that either Basically the gold logo/username bit just shows you've paid £25 for a discount card. Who needs to know?
Now a gold medallion for people who stumped up for the Scoobynews CD -- that I would be interested in
(Actually I got a refund for it, but I thought I'd get it in...
)PS: The manager of Sainsburys doesn't claim not to make a profit, though
[Edited by carl - 10/14/2002 10:12:06 PM]
14 October 2002, 10:18 PM
#167
carl
I agree that there should be no avatar or signature now. I was wrong, and I've listened to everyone. I'm going to keep the small logo on the left, and that will probably become a link to people's beefed up profile (which they will get with the membership).
Re: Profit.
I tell you what. Would you like me to turn over the costs and financial liability of running the bbs to you, and you can have all of the banner ad revenue?
I'll look forward to your reply as it will be a serious weight off my mind.
All the best
Simon
I agree that there should be no avatar or signature now. I was wrong, and I've listened to everyone. I'm going to keep the small logo on the left, and that will probably become a link to people's beefed up profile (which they will get with the membership).
Re: Profit.
I tell you what. Would you like me to turn over the costs and financial liability of running the bbs to you, and you can have all of the banner ad revenue?
I'll look forward to your reply as it will be a serious weight off my mind.
All the best
Simon
14 October 2002, 10:36 PM
#169
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Hmm, it seems that you have failed to notice the winkey smiley
TBH though, you must be 'not making a profit' through your own choice. It's down to you to set the banner ad prices, the subscription fees for the Plus membership , etc. That coupled with the number of page impressions, together with a pretty captive audience for most of the Scooby tuning products scene, means that the profit is there for the taking should you choose to do so.
PS: What would you have done if I'd said "yes"?
[Edited by carl - 10/14/2002 10:37:33 PM]
TBH though, you must be 'not making a profit' through your own choice. It's down to you to set the banner ad prices, the subscription fees for the Plus membership , etc. That coupled with the number of page impressions, together with a pretty captive audience for most of the Scooby tuning products scene, means that the profit is there for the taking should you choose to do so.
PS: What would you have done if I'd said "yes"?
[Edited by carl - 10/14/2002 10:37:33 PM]
14 October 2002, 10:47 PM
#170
LOL
If you'd said yes, I'd have been round your house tonight with a contract for you to sign! You better believe it!
Anyway, enough of all that.
The profit probably IS there, but it has (in the past) meant all sorts of things, but mostly the horror of making scoobynet all "commercial". Big paying banner advertisers want control over what is allowed to be posted, been down that road already. They want to be able to tell you to remove something that doesn't fit in with their brand. I will not allow that to happen (dispite being accused of doing just that!).
So... when it got to the point where the costs were SO high that it simply wasn't going to possible to keep it running for much longer, shaun and I sat down for just about every night of a month brain-storming to come up with a solution that would a) earn scoobynet enough money to secure it's future , but MOST importantly b) be a benefit to the members and supporters and not enforce any kind of bias on scoobynet.
The model for scoobyshop means we do not take ANY money for things that are sold on scoobyshop, and there are over 100 vendors already so there is not allegience to any supplier or product. The members are benefited hugely by the huge range of products available to simply browse and compare, and then also the discount which they can get by paying for the Plus membership. This at the same time puts money in scoobynet's bank account to secure it's future.
The vendors are also benefitted as (unlike the old scoobyshop where we sold products directly) we are not a competitor to them, they are in-fact given an extra vehicle to sell their products.
This all happens behind the scenes and it is just one of the many things that happen from time to time to keep it all running, all free and completely independant.
If scoobyshop earns some money, I'm not going to turn it away, but I would have done it a long time ago if it wasn't just necessity that had brought us to that point rather than wanting to earn a few quid
All the best
Simon
PS. Contracts being drawn up as we speak!
If you'd said yes, I'd have been round your house tonight with a contract for you to sign! You better believe it!
Anyway, enough of all that.
The profit probably IS there, but it has (in the past) meant all sorts of things, but mostly the horror of making scoobynet all "commercial". Big paying banner advertisers want control over what is allowed to be posted, been down that road already. They want to be able to tell you to remove something that doesn't fit in with their brand. I will not allow that to happen (dispite being accused of doing just that!).
So... when it got to the point where the costs were SO high that it simply wasn't going to possible to keep it running for much longer, shaun and I sat down for just about every night of a month brain-storming to come up with a solution that would a) earn scoobynet enough money to secure it's future , but MOST importantly b) be a benefit to the members and supporters and not enforce any kind of bias on scoobynet.
The model for scoobyshop means we do not take ANY money for things that are sold on scoobyshop, and there are over 100 vendors already so there is not allegience to any supplier or product. The members are benefited hugely by the huge range of products available to simply browse and compare, and then also the discount which they can get by paying for the Plus membership. This at the same time puts money in scoobynet's bank account to secure it's future.
The vendors are also benefitted as (unlike the old scoobyshop where we sold products directly) we are not a competitor to them, they are in-fact given an extra vehicle to sell their products.
This all happens behind the scenes and it is just one of the many things that happen from time to time to keep it all running, all free and completely independant.
If scoobyshop earns some money, I'm not going to turn it away, but I would have done it a long time ago if it wasn't just necessity that had brought us to that point rather than wanting to earn a few quid
All the best
Simon
PS. Contracts being drawn up as we speak!
14 October 2002, 11:02 PM
#171
Scooby Regular
TBH though, you must be 'not making a profit' through your own choice. It's down to you to set the banner ad prices, the subscription fees for the Plus membership , etc. That coupled with the number of page impressions, together with a pretty captive audience for most of the Scooby tuning products scene, means that the profit is there for the taking should you choose to do so.
I am making a living for myself selling IT services, but only just as people are not willing to pay money for quality work any more. It is the same for any web based business. People will only pay so much for banner ads etc, yet expect the world when they do pay.
And to everyone else, I know first hand how hard Simon works, due to helping out with certain projects. The backend work that goes into most of the web stuff we use (bbs, banners, websites etc)is unbelievable, and I really think people take it for granted.
I think Simon and the team should be applauded for what they do, and if they can make a profit then well done - I dont think tey should have to justify it at all. We would be knackered without Scoobynet.
With regards the avatars, I quite like the Top Trump comedy versions they use at DDN:
DDN Cafe
All IMHO of course.
14 October 2002, 11:40 PM
#176
Scooby Regular
Or for the avatars, how about different Scooby models depending on how long you have been on Scooynet:
Newbie = Impreza GL
Regular = Sport
More regular - UK Turbo
Mods - STi
Plus Member - 22b
You could have them as smallish cel-shaded type images under the username
Or begin with basic Impreza, then as you improve post count, membership status etc, modded bits are added on. Just needs a few gifs for each "state"
Newbie = Impreza GL
Regular = Sport
More regular
- UK TurboMods - STi
Plus Member - 22b
You could have them as smallish cel-shaded type images under the username
Or begin with basic Impreza, then as you improve post count, membership status etc, modded bits are added on. Just needs a few gifs for each "state"
14 October 2002, 11:51 PM
#177
That's a neat idea DW, but I think it's clear people just don't want that.
I will definitely be swayed if there is enough of the community that desperately wants it.. but as with all things, if enough people REALLY DON'T want it, then there needs to be a very good reason to keep it.
I have been thinking about it all afternoon and night and think the best way to give a good benefit to the paying ScoobyNetPlus members without causing any offense to the people who don't like the images is to allow a mini home page for all Plus members which can use any of the current BBS code and can have images of their cars, etc, etc on it. This will be accessed either by clicking the profile icon (which may change to signify that it is a beefed up profile) or possibly from the small plus member icon below the username.
Possibly also have a different colour username text as suggested by chrisp.
All the best
Simon
I will definitely be swayed if there is enough of the community that desperately wants it.. but as with all things, if enough people REALLY DON'T want it, then there needs to be a very good reason to keep it.
I have been thinking about it all afternoon and night and think the best way to give a good benefit to the paying ScoobyNetPlus members without causing any offense to the people who don't like the images is to allow a mini home page for all Plus members which can use any of the current BBS code and can have images of their cars, etc, etc on it. This will be accessed either by clicking the profile icon (which may change to signify that it is a beefed up profile) or possibly from the small plus member icon below the username.
Possibly also have a different colour username text as suggested by chrisp.
All the best
Simon
15 October 2002, 07:22 AM
#178
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What have I started! Jeez, it's all gone mad since I left last night. Personally, I don't think that avatars with the username are a bad thing - especially if limited to a small subset of (5-10) scoobynet-based low-sized GIFs. For most people they'd be cached locally within a couple of thread viewings, so wouldn't affect bandwidth.
And I'm perfectly happy for 'Plus' members to have the current 'badge' on the LHD with the username - if that is their want. I can't see it serves much purpose, but it doesn't detract from the BBS either, so why not (even if it just generates some publicity for the scoobyshop). Why not make the 'plus' logo a link to the shop, so that people wondering what it is can just click on it?
15 October 2002, 07:58 AM
#179
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BTW, without wishing to stir, but can I just respond to a few points here:
So what. Higher bandwidth costs, but more sponsors. And I'll bet you pay far less per gig for your bandwidth than I pay for mine (I also run a free web-based project at webreaper.net).
Why? How many law suits has SN had to fight that haven't been solved with the right sign-up clauses and disclaimers on the pages?
What's your point here Simon? For a company with turnover of anywhere between 60k and 200k, your accounting costs don't need to be more than £1,000/year. Being VAT registered isn't a big deal (and actually saves you a shedload of money). Setting up a limited company isn't an issue - and I believe that you already had one before you started Scoobynet. And the tax return should be handled as part of the accounting fees mentioned.
What attributes? SN does less than most of the BBSes I've used. phpBB is free and has a richer feature-set than SN, and is easily scalable to SN's traffic requirement. What software features have you written that other BBSes don't have as standard, Simon? Perhaps it would be churlish of me to mention right now that the search facility on SN has been crippled to the point of being completely useless for the last 2 years - something which is a fundemental feature for any decent BBS, IMO!!!
150 mails a day? Jeez. About a year ago, I was getting that many and I didn't have 20-30 moderators to help deal with them. Mine were also technical support mails, not just lusers and newbies asking to have their passwords reset.
Simon, FFS. It's a BBS. It's not like you're running the bloody BBC. If you were really that worried about content, bandwidth and all the rest of it, you'd ditch the muppets forum tomorrow, and moderate the general and non-scooby forums much more strictly. That would cut your bandwidth by 15% overnight. And most of the content here doesn't belong to you anyway, it's contributed by the members - not to mention the fact that 80% of the stuff posted every day is probably already in the SIDC faq, or has is a re-post of stuff that's been written within the last 3 months.
Believe me - having been in the Impreza 'scene', and an avid reader of SN, IWOC, 22b.com and even the Evo lists/forums, I can guarantee that there is little or no significant new impreza-related content month-to-month, and hasn't been for 3-4 years. Most of the tuning stuff can be found on other forums too.
That's a responsibility that you've created yourself. Nobody's forcing you to be a platform or launchpad for other companies. In fact, I'd say that to make such a claim is arrogant and immodest in the extreme.
This is so arrogant, pious and self-important. SN isn't a requirement or necessity - and in fact, as the downtime 18 months ago showed, it's potentially totally redundant. 22b.com and the SIDC BBS could easily take up the strain if SN died permanently - and there are enough webby people with relevant business interests (webhosting, web design, etc) that if push came to shove, a new free Scoobynet could be reborn within a matter of days.
Unfortunately, Simon, your whole attitude is self-serving, giving the impression that you've taken on this huge millstone and struggle through life, barely managing to eat or sleep, just so that we can all post b0llocks to this board. You make out that you have no other life, no other income, but that if you had to step aside and let SN flounder, that the Impreza community would collapse under its own weight and distintegrate.
Sorry to point out the truth, but that's not the case at all. SN is just a BBS, which you run for free as a hobby. If you pulled the plug tomorrow, a few people would whinge, and would move to another BBS within the hour - be it 22b.com, RSOC, SXOC, or wherever. Some people might even stop wasting time and actually do some productive work for their companies. Who knows, if you gave up this selfless struggle to keep SN alive, the British economy might actually benefit.
I guess I'll get my account disabled, and get thrown off the board, and get all sorts of abuse from moderators etc, but nothing I've written in this post is inaccurate.
Don't get my wrong - I appreciate SN, and enjoy the threads on it. But stop whinging, Simon, and enjoy the hobby you're participating in - after all, nobody's forcing you to do this!!!!
[Edited by MarkO - 10/15/2002 7:59:37 AM]
ScoobyNet has over 18 TIMES the traffic you quoted
We have also learnt from bitter experience the need for things like solicitors and insurances.
Have you put your first tax return in yet? Is it a limited company? How much to you pay your accountants a year? Are you VAT registered (because your costs are so high you need to charge enough to warrant it)?
Did you write your own software because none of the software available at the time had the right combination of attributes
What franction of 150 emails a day do you have to answer?
How much forethought and planning has gone in to securing the site for the future so all of the 18,000 members (maybe 8,000 active) plus the estimated 50,000 regular readers and over 100,000 estimated once monthly readers plus the 100's of thousands of casual viewers will still have access to all of the information that you had taken on the responsibility to provide?
Believe me - having been in the Impreza 'scene', and an avid reader of SN, IWOC, 22b.com and even the Evo lists/forums, I can guarantee that there is little or no significant new impreza-related content month-to-month, and hasn't been for 3-4 years. Most of the tuning stuff can be found on other forums too.
Does your website have the responsibility, that it not only provided the vehicle to launch a number of highly successful companies but also then provides a platform for a number of smaller businesses to survive?
Did you decide a long time ago that you would make sure the forum remained free of charge for the members to use, and not have the backing of club in order to fund part of it's costs?
Unfortunately, Simon, your whole attitude is self-serving, giving the impression that you've taken on this huge millstone and struggle through life, barely managing to eat or sleep, just so that we can all post b0llocks to this board. You make out that you have no other life, no other income, but that if you had to step aside and let SN flounder, that the Impreza community would collapse under its own weight and distintegrate.
Sorry to point out the truth, but that's not the case at all. SN is just a BBS, which you run for free as a hobby. If you pulled the plug tomorrow, a few people would whinge, and would move to another BBS within the hour - be it 22b.com, RSOC, SXOC, or wherever. Some people might even stop wasting time and actually do some productive work for their companies. Who knows, if you gave up this selfless struggle to keep SN alive, the British economy might actually benefit.
I guess I'll get my account disabled, and get thrown off the board, and get all sorts of abuse from moderators etc, but nothing I've written in this post is inaccurate.
Don't get my wrong - I appreciate SN, and enjoy the threads on it. But stop whinging, Simon, and enjoy the hobby you're participating in - after all, nobody's forcing you to do this!!!!
[Edited by MarkO - 10/15/2002 7:59:37 AM]
