P1 engine blow up
17 October 2002, 10:07 AM
#31
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Um let think about this shall we, is a decat standard fit, no!!! So should a dealer repair the engine, not really!! Some may, but some won't. IM wouldn't autherise the repair if they know a decat has been fitted.
And as for sideways comments about Moderators, etc. I have followed John Thread for ages and must be honest, he does profess to know everything, are you sure you not a women, lol
Some Moderators do let the power get to thier heads as soon as they are given the status!!!
P
And as for sideways comments about Moderators, etc. I have followed John Thread for ages and must be honest, he does profess to know everything, are you sure you not a women, lol
Some Moderators do let the power get to thier heads as soon as they are given the status!!!
P
17 October 2002, 10:31 AM
#32
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NINJA: If it's any consolation I have an STI4, it's now done 65K miles. It's fully de-catted, has many mods (ECU Remap, Scoobysport rear box, T75 downpipe, PE mid pipe, Blitz filter).
I also have an extra oil cooler and water injection fitted (both for safety and perhaps a little over the top). With the mods it's dynos at between 334 and 348BHP depending on the weather.
The car gets driven hard(i.e use of revs), but to be honest it doesn't tend to spend long >100mph (perhaps 1 minute max at 140ish) every few months (on private ground of course).
So long term ownership doesn't necessarily mean it will blow up.
I also have an extra oil cooler and water injection fitted (both for safety and perhaps a little over the top). With the mods it's dynos at between 334 and 348BHP depending on the weather.
The car gets driven hard(i.e use of revs), but to be honest it doesn't tend to spend long >100mph (perhaps 1 minute max at 140ish) every few months (on private ground of course).
So long term ownership doesn't necessarily mean it will blow up.
17 October 2002, 10:35 AM
#33
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Sorry John 
ive amended that to read Subaru engine
But as all dealers seem to put different oils in the turbo cars (5w30 fully synth, 10w40 semi synth etc) IM will need to sort out an oil thats viable for ALL turbocharged scoobs that wont be too thin (like the 5w30 shell fully synthetic). But the failures on the P1 engines (or uk turbo/jap import engines) is like you say John, down to oil or fuel.
Adam, maybe its because the STi5 was one of the most produced STi's but the engine failure rate is beyond that (especially for the P1) of its margine (normally .5% roughly) of failures, it must be atleast 2% of the 1000 cars (be it down to fuel or oil or just a duff engine) so it should be down to subaru to point out to the owner before they purchase the car (and to the dealers) EXACTLY what fuel and oil this car should be run on ALL the time. (import owners will probably have a hard time as most of the small import companies may not know that these cars need SUL fuel and octane booster to run to the SPECIFIED RON rating).
Maybe its time for IM to send out questionares to their dealerships to find out exactly what they reccommend for their customers car (fuel, oils and lubricants) to see where its going wrong?
Tony
ive amended that to read Subaru engine
But as all dealers seem to put different oils in the turbo cars (5w30 fully synth, 10w40 semi synth etc) IM will need to sort out an oil thats viable for ALL turbocharged scoobs that wont be too thin (like the 5w30 shell fully synthetic). But the failures on the P1 engines (or uk turbo/jap import engines) is like you say John, down to oil or fuel.
Adam, maybe its because the STi5 was one of the most produced STi's but the engine failure rate is beyond that (especially for the P1) of its margine (normally .5% roughly) of failures, it must be atleast 2% of the 1000 cars (be it down to fuel or oil or just a duff engine) so it should be down to subaru to point out to the owner before they purchase the car (and to the dealers) EXACTLY what fuel and oil this car should be run on ALL the time. (import owners will probably have a hard time as most of the small import companies may not know that these cars need SUL fuel and octane booster to run to the SPECIFIED RON rating).
Maybe its time for IM to send out questionares to their dealerships to find out exactly what they reccommend for their customers car (fuel, oils and lubricants) to see where its going wrong?
Tony
17 October 2002, 11:15 AM
#35
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Sorry to go off topic a little, but wouldn't you say that if only 2 failures of STi7 engines have been reported, and both down to misuse, it might be reasonable to think that this engine is more robust that the STi4/5 design? There must be several thousand STi7s in the UK alone, some coming up for about a year old...
Charlie.
Charlie.
17 October 2002, 11:43 AM
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Could a rod through the block really be caused by a fuel problem? I would say big ends failing or rod through the block is more likely either a component defect or lubrication issue. Anybody else have thoughts on this?
17 October 2002, 11:50 AM
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How on earth can Subaru try and make a de-catted exhaust a scape goat for a big end failiure.I would personally take them to court if they didn't pay for my rebuild costs and out of pocket expenses.
As the exhaust is not related in anyway to the failiure and this particular problem is a well documented happening. I would also demand a car of similar specification whilst mine was being repaired and ask that my warranty was extended by x amounts of weeks whilst the car was of the road and I would also expect a free service to cover my insurance and servicing costs. Can the dealer even prove that your de-catted exhaust was not on the car when you purchased it. No they can't they really don't have a leg to stand on.
As the exhaust is not related in anyway to the failiure and this particular problem is a well documented happening. I would also demand a car of similar specification whilst mine was being repaired and ask that my warranty was extended by x amounts of weeks whilst the car was of the road and I would also expect a free service to cover my insurance and servicing costs. Can the dealer even prove that your de-catted exhaust was not on the car when you purchased it. No they can't they really don't have a leg to stand on.
17 October 2002, 12:01 PM
#38
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Co55ie,
the guy was the first owner so the car would have come as per spec from Prodrive (ie cat fitted) but its probably more related to oil than anything else.
Tony
the guy was the first owner so the car would have come as per spec from Prodrive (ie cat fitted) but its probably more related to oil than anything else.
Tony
17 October 2002, 12:08 PM
#39
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I've got a P1 service tomorrow (Car's first birthday on Sat - HORAH! ), is there a tried and trusted oil that I can tell the garage I want put in?
I'll post here but I'll go and look through search as well
), is there a tried and trusted oil that I can tell the garage I want put in?I'll post here but I'll go and look through search as well
17 October 2002, 12:09 PM
#40
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Thats a good point. What car do u get to run about in while the P1 is fixed? Is it a small crap little thing or do you get a proper motor. I know if mine were to go in for several weeks id want something decent.
17 October 2002, 12:15 PM
#41
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Charlie not enough time to tell on the STi7 yet the P1 had done 16K and had 18 months usage. The P1s were built over 2.5 years ago so time will only tell. I was tempted to decat my version 6 imported MY00 RA but decided to just do the centre and bb for the noise . The car is plenty quick enough with the catted DP and its on full boost by 3000rpm so I cant really see the point, just more hassle come MOT time and possible lean running and fueling issues. The centre was just a resonator anyway ie no cat. Oil is changed in mine (fully synth Silkolene Pro S15w50 IIRC) ) every 2,500 miles and only ever use optimax and OB.
Not saying it wont blow but at least it has a fair chance.
Cheers
ChrisP
. The car is plenty quick enough with the catted DP and its on full boost by 3000rpm so I cant really see the point, just more hassle come MOT time and possible lean running and fueling issues. The centre was just a resonator anyway ie no cat. Oil is changed in mine (fully synth Silkolene Pro S15w50 IIRC) ) every 2,500 miles and only ever use optimax and OB.Not saying it wont blow but at least it has a fair chance.
Cheers
ChrisP
17 October 2002, 12:21 PM
#42
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Cossie,
They will say the engine is breathing better, and the mixture was leaner, so the engine blew because of that. Just a thought
Cheers Phill C
In my experience they will use every available excuse to get off paying out!!
They will say the engine is breathing better, and the mixture was leaner, so the engine blew because of that. Just a thought
Cheers Phill C
In my experience they will use every available excuse to get off paying out!!
17 October 2002, 12:32 PM
#43
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tony,
are there really only 1000 sti 5s?
I find that hard to believe as the special editions were numbered from 1 to 444 or 555 or 500 depending on the model.
the failure rate is higher than average for these cars, but no higher than for any other impreza. You say 2%, perhaps, nut nothing suggests that other imprezas are less than 2%, they are just higher profile as they are stis.
The sti 7 may wekll be stronger to those who have commented, but we need time to see if this is really the case.
rods through the block are usually due to failed rods!! ie. due to component failure. Or runnign beyond spec. Cars with a 7k redline have this because the heavier cast pistons place too much load on the rods so they eventuall break and the flailing remnants of the rod get punched through the block.
and returning to johns comments. It didnt seem to me to ahve anything to do with the fact that he is a moderator, merely someone who does know a little more than the rest of us (but not me of course).
are there really only 1000 sti 5s?
I find that hard to believe as the special editions were numbered from 1 to 444 or 555 or 500 depending on the model.
the failure rate is higher than average for these cars, but no higher than for any other impreza. You say 2%, perhaps, nut nothing suggests that other imprezas are less than 2%, they are just higher profile as they are stis.
The sti 7 may wekll be stronger to those who have commented, but we need time to see if this is really the case.
rods through the block are usually due to failed rods!! ie. due to component failure. Or runnign beyond spec. Cars with a 7k redline have this because the heavier cast pistons place too much load on the rods so they eventuall break and the flailing remnants of the rod get punched through the block.
and returning to johns comments. It didnt seem to me to ahve anything to do with the fact that he is a moderator, merely someone who does know a little more than the rest of us (but not me of course
).
17 October 2002, 12:38 PM
#44
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If the mixture was leaner then chances are you would hole a piston or something similar not nacker a big end surely. Does the scoob's oil breather system vent oil to the air filter ? As this is what it sounds like to me. You give your car a spank you get a little blow by you back off then suddenly your engine starts to get oil mixed with the fuel/air your car starts to det which you probably wouldn't hear then bang. 280 bhp is quite a hike over the 210 standard and wondered if the standard system could cope.
[Edited by co55ie - 10/17/2002 12:48:22 PM]
[Edited by co55ie - 10/17/2002 12:48:22 PM]
17 October 2002, 12:50 PM
#47
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I take your point chrisp. I suppose I was hoping that there would be something in subaru's blub about how much work had gone into the STi7 engine, and they would prove to be *reasonably* reliable. It would be interesting to see some hard figures for failure rates for a range of high performance engines, turbos and n/a.
17 October 2002, 01:30 PM
#48
17 October 2002, 02:29 PM
#49
confused on the moderator status comment?? I wont go there, i really dont know what you mean? Being a moderator means one thing, more friggin hassle, which i am happy to accept. It doesnt make you smarter of have any power over what people say other than keeping content non litigeous/obscene. Show me threads i have deleted or edited, rare as rocking horse $hit.
Most STi failures are not big ends, they are melted pistons due to major det, which when the rings nip up overloads the bearing and that spins up. I have seen countless engines with melted pistons that have then thrown a rod or spun a bearing, i was looking at one this morning. Of course you get big ends going too without the melted pistons, but that is accross the board on every version out there.
I have also driven an STi7 type UK that was detting its nuts off, i told the dealer about this as the salesman was sat next to me. That clever guy ignored me and it blew up shortly afterwards. They said it was running on SUL, i didnt believe them, i think that failed due to being driven hard and deting on 95RON.
Adam, i am confused by you saying you dont agree with me installing an anti-surge STi pump assembly, why? When i bought the car i could get fuel surge on the road with 1/2 tank of fuel, i can now run it to 1/8 without any surge on track. It was too expensive and if i were doing it again i would probably use an external swirl pot/pump assembly, but it works.
Fuel surge leans out these engines to the point where they shutdown if you drive hard enough, i believe this is killing some of the engines. All Turbos have this problem, its a fuel tank design issue due to the two chamber design of the tank, hard cornering on righthanders induces major lean off issues.
Most STi failures are not big ends, they are melted pistons due to major det, which when the rings nip up overloads the bearing and that spins up. I have seen countless engines with melted pistons that have then thrown a rod or spun a bearing, i was looking at one this morning. Of course you get big ends going too without the melted pistons, but that is accross the board on every version out there.
I have also driven an STi7 type UK that was detting its nuts off, i told the dealer about this as the salesman was sat next to me. That clever guy ignored me and it blew up shortly afterwards. They said it was running on SUL, i didnt believe them, i think that failed due to being driven hard and deting on 95RON.
Adam, i am confused by you saying you dont agree with me installing an anti-surge STi pump assembly, why? When i bought the car i could get fuel surge on the road with 1/2 tank of fuel, i can now run it to 1/8 without any surge on track. It was too expensive and if i were doing it again i would probably use an external swirl pot/pump assembly, but it works.
Fuel surge leans out these engines to the point where they shutdown if you drive hard enough, i believe this is killing some of the engines. All Turbos have this problem, its a fuel tank design issue due to the two chamber design of the tank, hard cornering on righthanders induces major lean off issues.
17 October 2002, 02:43 PM
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John,
how much do these anti surge pumps cost?
I normally dont run the car with less than 1/2 a tank of fuel anyway (and probably dont go round the corners quite as quickly as you) so ive never felt the urge to add one to my scoob.
Also is there any chance you could explain what it does? ie does it take fuel from both sides of the tank?
Tony
how much do these anti surge pumps cost?
I normally dont run the car with less than 1/2 a tank of fuel anyway (and probably dont go round the corners quite as quickly as you
) so ive never felt the urge to add one to my scoob.Also is there any chance you could explain what it does? ie does it take fuel from both sides of the tank?
Tony
17 October 2002, 02:44 PM
#52
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John,
maybe you could explain this deletion of post http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=141515
i know you didnt do it but that wasnt liabelous or obscene. I simply stated that if the second fast and furious was as bad as the first they could stick it up their ****. Moderator concerned has recently posted up fcuked in case u point out my use of ****. "No value to thread" given reason is just a cop out, a thread runs its own course IMHO be it a good thing or not.
maybe you could explain this deletion of post http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=141515
i know you didnt do it but that wasnt liabelous or obscene. I simply stated that if the second fast and furious was as bad as the first they could stick it up their ****. Moderator concerned has recently posted up fcuked in case u point out my use of ****. "No value to thread" given reason is just a cop out, a thread runs its own course IMHO be it a good thing or not.
17 October 2002, 03:03 PM
#53
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No doubt due to an import agency/company not giving the right info out... check this thread out
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=141474
Yet another STi that may go the melted piston way given time
Tony
http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/thread.asp?threadid=141474
Yet another STi that may go the melted piston way given time
Tony
17 October 2002, 03:09 PM
#54
no, i wont explain the deletion of any post other than one i deleted myself. Like i said, you go find a thread i deleted/edited and then come back to me about moderator power. I simply dont do it! I can only remember a couple of instances in the last year in my forums, and that was due to supliers advertising, which isnt allowed in the forums.
I took some photos of the STi assembly, i'll post them in here when i get home. The cost of the component wasnt extortionate, but when you add the import tax, bank charges, sales tax, shipping it went way too high. The nice thing about it is that it is a direct replacement, so no extra bulk, hoses, wires etc to worry about.
I took some photos of the STi assembly, i'll post them in here when i get home. The cost of the component wasnt extortionate, but when you add the import tax, bank charges, sales tax, shipping it went way too high. The nice thing about it is that it is a direct replacement, so no extra bulk, hoses, wires etc to worry about.
17 October 2002, 04:55 PM
#56
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I might regret posting this but, I probably have the one of the highest mileage P1's in the uk.
Full decat but with closed neck d/p, induction kit & Knocklink. (fit one guy's & see what your bad driving habits do!)
Always run on SUL, regularly but not always with octane booster.
I've not always treated her like a lady but she still flies.
Another 'in-between' oil change coming up (Motul 300v)& may go to iridium plugs.
Sorry to hear of other peep's problems but thought this might add a little 'positive' balance ( & hope for other P1 owners!) to the discussion.
Like I said, I hope I don't regret posting this......
TTM
Full decat but with closed neck d/p, induction kit & Knocklink. (fit one guy's & see what your bad driving habits do!)
Always run on SUL, regularly but not always with octane booster.
I've not always treated her like a lady but she still flies.
Another 'in-between' oil change coming up (Motul 300v)& may go to iridium plugs.
Sorry to hear of other peep's problems but thought this might add a little 'positive' balance ( & hope for other P1 owners!) to the discussion.
Like I said, I hope I don't regret posting this......
TTM
17 October 2002, 05:02 PM
#57
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Sorry to hear of other peep's problems but thought this might add a little 'positive' balance ( & hope for other P1 owners!) to the discussion.
Anyway, hope Rich is reading this.
17 October 2002, 05:43 PM
#59
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quote:
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If the mixture was leaner then chances are you would hole a piston or something similar not nacker a big end surely. Does the scoob's oil breather system vent oil to the air filter ? As this is what it sounds like to me. You give your car a spank you get a little blow by you back off then suddenly your engine starts to get oil mixed with the fuel/air your car starts to det which you probably wouldn't hear then bang. 280 bhp is quite a hike over the 210 standard and wondered if the standard system could cope.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
running lean could affect big ends - basically by loading up the oil temperature, thinning the oil and reducing the thickness of the film on the bearings.
[Edited by NDT - 10/17/2002 5:45:34 PM]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If the mixture was leaner then chances are you would hole a piston or something similar not nacker a big end surely. Does the scoob's oil breather system vent oil to the air filter ? As this is what it sounds like to me. You give your car a spank you get a little blow by you back off then suddenly your engine starts to get oil mixed with the fuel/air your car starts to det which you probably wouldn't hear then bang. 280 bhp is quite a hike over the 210 standard and wondered if the standard system could cope.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
running lean could affect big ends - basically by loading up the oil temperature, thinning the oil and reducing the thickness of the film on the bearings.
[Edited by NDT - 10/17/2002 5:45:34 PM]
17 October 2002, 05:51 PM
#60
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Quote:
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How on earth can Subaru try and make a de-catted exhaust a scape goat for a big end failiure.I would personally take them to court if they didn't pay for my rebuild costs and out of pocket expenses.
As the exhaust is not related in anyway to the failiure and this particular problem is a well documented happening. I would also demand a car of similar specification whilst mine was being repaired and ask that my warranty was extended by x amounts of weeks whilst the car was of the road and I would also expect a free service to cover my insurance and servicing costs. Can the dealer even prove that your de-catted exhaust was not on the car when you purchased it. No they can't they really don't have a leg to stand on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
well good luck with that approach, but I doubt it's realistic.
The decat exhaust increases the car's performance (or why would you do it?)
Why would a manufacturer have any liability in this case?
The product has been modified in a way that will affect loading on the component that failed. How can the owner possibly prove a manufacturing or design defect in this case?
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How on earth can Subaru try and make a de-catted exhaust a scape goat for a big end failiure.I would personally take them to court if they didn't pay for my rebuild costs and out of pocket expenses.
As the exhaust is not related in anyway to the failiure and this particular problem is a well documented happening. I would also demand a car of similar specification whilst mine was being repaired and ask that my warranty was extended by x amounts of weeks whilst the car was of the road and I would also expect a free service to cover my insurance and servicing costs. Can the dealer even prove that your de-catted exhaust was not on the car when you purchased it. No they can't they really don't have a leg to stand on.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
well good luck with that approach, but I doubt it's realistic.
The decat exhaust increases the car's performance (or why would you do it?)
Why would a manufacturer have any liability in this case?
The product has been modified in a way that will affect loading on the component that failed. How can the owner possibly prove a manufacturing or design defect in this case?