co55ie

NDT seeing as though this is a well documneted case you may well have a chance. The reason companies get away with sub standard service is because they think they can. You will amazed how high you can make some of these companies jump. And why not just stick your original system back on it before you take it to the dealers then see them try and wangle out of it.
I would be inclined to think that oil vapours being mixed with your fuel/air mixture caused by blow by was equally inclined to lean out your fuel air mixture as an exhaust this would directly effect the RON of your fuel being burnt in the cylinders.

[Edited by co55ie - 10/17/2002 6:39:43 PM]

[Edited by co55ie - 10/17/2002 6:43:55 PM]

T-uk

it could also be said that a decat could help save your engine.no experience of P1's but a m8 has owned many uk scoobs.he is also a mechanic and has some rally experience.we have tracked most of his cars.one of which was a totally standard my98,this car would go very well for 5laps at the start of each session and then start to hold back on the straights.he felt the egt's were getting high possibly causing det retarding the ecu.for the next track day we fitted a full decat(nothing else,no oil change,same petrol from same garage etc.) and had no problems for our 10laps.at the moment he has a decatted my00,tracked without problems and another standard my98 but not yet tracked.I also found this with my own my00 car before decatting it.

if a decat makes the car breath easier then the maf should pick up the added air flow and add fuel to this,if the p1 already runs lean it should run the same ratio,if the car spools up better though and throws the map out and starts hitting the wrong zones,this could be the main problem with decatting a p1.this is all IMO so may well be sh1te.

johnfelstead

pictures of my STi fuel pump assembly can be found here http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadID=141906

Glenn_R

What happens if this were to occur after the warranty had expired (mine ends Mar '03). Would this be 'remortgage the house for an engine rebuild' time???

john banks

The vast majority of my work has been with MY99/00 UK cars and only a little on the P1/STis. However, the STi/P1 maps scares the $hit out of me the way it is as standard. Pretty damn lean, quite advanced (yes there is an offset which makes it look worse), and with a decat it is markedly lean just as it is overboosting nicely because of the improved breathing. Subaru knock correction is OK to a point, but I am sometimes quite surprised how much it lets through once you start to get away from standard spec. If the map is really inappropriate then it just seems to let it det, despite being given ample time to learn. Have seen this on a few cars now. On my own car when I mapped it for Optimax (with a completely det free map when trying to provoke it as much as possible) and then tried 95 RON it detted on the first throttle snap.... AND DIDN'T DO ANYTHING about it. This is only 3-4 RON difference and on a UK ECU which is more sensitive to det. Now take a 100-102 RON ECU and run it on even SUL and I am personally worried. The Broquet in the P1 probably has saved a few engines. Detonation can break conrods too - the high pressure shockwave is very destructive not just to pistons.

johnfelstead

This is why i run a standard engine. I have retained the standard panel filter assembly and even use the standard STi air filter which i imported from japan. I also retain the standard downpipe with cat. Until i decide to go to a proper remap (i may never do that, 280BHP is a nice amount of power) the whole setup is staying the same, i am running the car on Optimax plus NF or 98RON plus NF in Europe.

SimonH

I assume the P1 map has been adjusted to accomodate 97 RON fuel? Is there any mileage in running the P1 on Octane booster?

john banks

From all I have seen the P1 map is IDENTICAL to the STI 5/6 map. There was some question over different knock sensitivity, but this does not seem to be the case. The Broquets are the most substantial difference I can identify. Run P1s on SUL or Optimax PLUS NF always IMHO.

hawkeye

What about the New Sti7 should that be SUL + NF or just SUL??]

Hawkeye

johnfelstead

yours is modified isnt it hawkeye? Over 300BHP with a decat if i recall. If so i suggest you use Optimax/SUL plus NF or millers.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Cheers for the link John that unit looks pretty good but i cant make out where it goes? is it in the back somewhere????

Tony

Bob Rawle

P1 maps are, as John says , identical to the Sti 5/6 BUT the knock correction IS much more sensitive, Broquet will make some difference despite the "jeers" that are occasionally heard but the base fact is that a P1 is essentially an STi 5. That given then it needs ,as a minimum, 97 ron plus booster if it is going to be used to its best advantage (and safety). The Sti7 engine is "different" in many respects but is still a EJ207 ... which is what the STi 5/6 engine's are. Block is better being semi closed however the rods are similar in strength as is the crank and bearings. So there is no map for the P1 that has been adjusted for UK fuel, it relies on knock retard and the Broquet.

The std ecu (Sti5/6) does not react to severe sharp det ... nor does a UK car, if this occurs and then persists the engine will detonate without the ecu doing anything about it ... I have now experimented with this on my own car (not the persistant det)using det cans and I can confidently say that the ecu would ignore true severe det spikes but reacts to "no det" quite readily, this is because it is looking at a filtered knock sensor output. Its not quite as bad as I have portrayed and 95% of the time the ecu will be doing the right thing.

In summary ... always run at least 99 ron fuel in the P1 and it "should" be det free ... the usual constraints and warnings still apply wrt big end failure though and a little TLC is required to stop this happening.



[Edited by Bob Rawle - 10/17/2002 10:46:40 PM]

Neil Smalley

Just a short note to say, top thread chaps. Good information.
When the thread 'dies down' i'll move it to drivetrain where it won't get so lost.

The TunnelMeister

Bob, John B,

I posted earlier having a 'higher' mileage P1, decat, induction, knocklink.

Should I be considering a remap for engine safety?

Steve.

johnfelstead

Bob, how does the P1 ECU achieve more sensitivity to knock? Is it using a diferent knock sensor or is there a diferent amp/filter in the ECU?

Very intresting info!!

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Steve,
the general consensus is that its most likely oil or fuel that is the biggest fault to engine failures, if you run the shell helix 5w30 all year round id be scared as its designed from 0 deg downwards, running a thicker oil (15w50 for instance) would give better lubrication in the warmer months (and it lubricates better) a slightly thinner oil in winter (5w40 or the likes).
If your car has gone this far then the chances are its rock solid (fingers crossed )

Tony

SCOSaltire

As I understand it, the MY99 PPP ecu leans the mixture a bit?
People dont seem shocked when the exhaust has been made decat for this ecu.

Why is that?

Is it because the whole map isnt quite as close to the wind as the P1?
Or is it coz different parts of the off-centre (away from the sweet part of the map that the std spec PPP car would run in) are mapped better?

I was told by a garage that the ecus have two modes - Fast and economy.
If I was to drive slowly for a while, the ecu would run the car more fuel efficient, but when i 'give it stick' for a while the car will pull out of the lazy mode and go fast again once it has learned that its being driven differently.

Would the mode switching (how does it do that) coz a problem to a hot engine?

Im interested to learn....

[Edited by SCOSaltire - 10/17/2002 11:35:45 PM]

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Not sure about the PPP, but my MY00 PPP runs very well with a decat downpipe its lovely and sooty all the time (and yes i do clean it ) but i dont know of any failures of a PPP'd car?
I think that the STi engine has less tolerences than that of a wrx or turbo, im not sure about that thou?

Tony

johnfelstead

check the thread now tony, i added a picture of where the fuel pump access is in the boot.

The TunnelMeister

Tony, thanks for that, I hope so too!

Due an (intermediate) oil change about now, Motul 300v 15w 50, car will probably need a warm up before driving during the colder months but I believe this is the correct option.

Remap or not, what do you think?

I've been watching the thread, excellent inputs, what Scoobynet is all about IMHO.

Steve.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Cheers John
where do they fit though? is it in the rear somewhere? cant quite make out where that panel is??

Tony

johnfelstead

the access panel is clearly visible if you remove your rear carpet from the boot. You have to remove the rear seat to get clear access.

I am using Castrol RS 10/60 now the weather is getting colder. Motul 15/50 is a bit thick in winter if you are doing a lot of short comuting.

RT

Just a thought, what is the std max boost typically in a P1? Does having a decat increase the spike noticeably?

I ask as I've found on my JDM STI7 RA, that the KL is much more active (2 greens and occasionally 1 amber - sudden) when the boost is at or above 1.2bar. Once I modified the restrictor to give me a max of 1.15bar peak (held - usually closer to 1bar), I hardly see anything more than 1 green at normal operating temps. I've seen 2 greens, but that was because the car was idling in traffic and the weather was 35degC out.

98RON fuel, std exhaust.

Bob Rawle

John F, it appears to be a software issue ... the UK spec ecus also have roughly the same sensitivity, the STi ecu software is different.

I use det cans to map the boost as well as "tuning aids" and always like to correlate the output of the knocklink with "real" det. In doing so I was initially suprised to find that a P1 will react to increased knock sensor output when there is no sign of any det at all, so will a UK, the Sti is much less inclined to do so. With Deltadash logging as well I then decided to spend some time "investigating" this ... so flashing my ecu with either a P1 based set of maps or an STi set of maps (both using identical values) generated a significantly different knock retard response, it was repeatable as well and not just a one off. Comparing the logged files one to the other showed virtually no differences in fueling etc, just a greater speed of reaction in using knock retard.

The problem arises in that it is possible for the engine to det very aggressively and instantaneously (not prolonged) and the ecu(s) ignores it, if then this was repeated in bursts at very short intervals it still does not react, det cans said transition stuff ... I can picture a scenario where det is triggered like this and then is continuously prolonged .. the ecu would not then react until it was possibly too late.

If on song and concentrating on the road then an owner would be hard put to hear anything as he would be "busy"

Bob

john banks

Your observations are interesting Bob. The email I forwarded to you a while back from Steve had the P1 and STi5 knock sensitivity values the same. Clearly since there is a difference in the way they behave then there is something else in the code that we can't access yet that is different.

I don't like the way it misses transitional detonation (I can nearly always hear it when my knocklink lights up, and also get audio off the Bosch knock sensor as I couldn't get the stethoscope to talk to the car instead of the patients ). Despite a catch can on the crankcase it still does it if the ignition timing is excessive (even with rich fuelling and not loads of boost). Over time (and I mean a tank or so of fuel) it does seem to improve but it disturbs me how much it lets through. Hopefully the Denso ECUs will be much better since they run active.

[Edited by john banks - 10/18/2002 7:45:23 PM]

Bob Rawle

John, I'm not talking about the two sets of values which determines how much knock retard for how long is tolerated before it drops off the boost, I'm refering to the "sensitivity" of reaction that appears to be present in the two different codes. Steve has not exposed that setting. If your car is not so det tolerant as some it could be down to a number of reasons that is not related to timing etc, for example have you checked your compression? You might find it on the high end of the tolerance ... less det tolerant in that case. I find that cars vary greatly in their willingness to accept timing, some are much better than others.

john banks

Future feature then hopefully to be able to adjust it. Did altering the numbers in the compensation maps get you anywhere? Seemed to make no difference on mine.

NF + Optimax + Broquet at only 1.4 bar with richer fuelling than before is giving me chunks of timing back. We'll see where we get to once I can actually get some fuel in at the top end (550s and WB lambda going on this weekend).