DazW

iTrader: (1)

What about a track where these cars exel...such as the MIRA??? and open it up to Group A/N Homogalation specials that include: Impreza's, Grale's, Quattro's, GT4's , Pulsar's, Cossies ??? imagine that as an event ....and invite an M3, R34, and an elise just for comparison and a laugh

PS Huggy', Gaz is on holiday so I dont know your mail address! so give us a shout and Ill let you know what 'Lazy Wakey' has been upto

[This message has been edited by DazW (edited 06 September 2001).]

BarryWaterhouse

Adam M - me naive? - I'm far too old for that

Perhaps I should have qualified my comment to encompass just performance cars.

It may well be that Imprezas will buck the trend.

A couple of years ago BBC's top gear did an assessment of Integrales and Quentin Wilson compared the 'Grale with the then current Impreza. He thought the 'Grale was better.

You can download a copy of the video from our website:

ork

Just took a look at the Evocorner forum. I was going to say that I found 2 user's, who seemed sensible enough until I read this comment from one of em:-

"As the Subaru is such a popular car, it's surprising that many aren't driven on track. Most owners just seem to want to pose and cruise."

Could I suggest that the Subaru owners you are referring to, may actually be acknowledging speed limits, and indeed, do not have anything to prove.

I have NEVER seen anyone posing in a Scooby. If I did, I would probably fall out of my car with laughter.

Here's another one:-
Umm, lets have an Evoness test..
Scooby Delta Evo

Looks 4/10 9/10
Overall Speed 8/10 7/10
Desirability 8/10 9/10
Kudos/street cred 7/10 8/10
Heritage 5/10 8/10
Sports pedigree 7/10 10/10
Running costs 8/10 6/10
Involvement 7/10 9/10
Origin (Jpn/I) 5/10 10/10
Rarity (UK) 6/10 9/10

Total 65/100 85/100

Conclusion?

What is it that blowdog say's, INCOMING?

Dire comments from the evocorner forum. Just as well they new that no-one was hurt. Oh, I beg your pardon, there wasn't even a mention of the condition of the drivers health.

Grals do Command respect, but unfortunately,
users in the evocorner forum, who own them, don't,and are of a different clientele.

I agree, most of these users HATE scooby's.
But hate comes from fear, so I am staring to understand where they are comming from.

All they have done is created a steroetypical view of what a Gral driver is like.

Well done guy's, keep up the good work.

Tubbs

Jumping to a conclusion that all us grale drivers are d***heads! or the like.

Personally, I like Subaru's, and will one day own one as they will be a classic in it's own time

Guy I worked with had a P1 and bar a Porsche 993 RS, haven't ever been in anything quicker!

Besides, I have never known a warranty that covered discs after 30K as it did on this guys P1. Not bad.

There are many sensible people out there and a few bad apples do not spoil a cart. (sorry for the w***y pun!)

The fact is that both cars do a similar job, but get there in different ways. After all, there isn't much turbo lag on an Imprezza, however you have to use a diary for the Integrale one.

There are normal people out there who drive Integrale's and who appreciate other models, so please do not tar us all with the same brush (sorry for the pun again)

Adam M

Ork,

we have made peace already, dont fan the flames.

Its over. Go home (Ferris Buellerism )

one more thing however. Loads of different imprezas out there, different turbos all over the place. Some big some small. just to let you kow that some have major lag that is all.

ork

Hi Huggybear,

You will have to excuse my manner of interpreting.

"As the Subaru is such a popular car, it's surprising that many aren't driven on track. Most owners just seem to want to pose and cruise."


My interpretation to the above, was that you were referring to most Scooby owners just seem to want to pose and cruise on a road and not go near a track. But what you mean is that most Scooby owners, when on a race track or circuit, don't "drive", just pose and cruise on a race track?

Confusing?

Please enlighten us.


When referring to speed limits, of course I am talking about public roads and not race tracks.


[This message has been edited by ork (edited 06 September 2001).]

BarryK

Pacenote,

That is, even as we speak, a moot point. Here's a post I made today on this very issue.

"I think the warranty specifically refers to timed events and racing. Which I think is fair enough.
If you take the car on an airfield or track and drive it quickly, they must (and I believe will) honour the warranty. They say it can be driven quickly, heck they even quote a top speed and a 0-60 time in their literature/specs.

If it can't without being damaged then it is not of merchantable quality. ie. It is not suitable for the purpose based on which it is sold.

This is an enthusiasts event, no-one wants to take the mickey, so come on Subaru UK, set the record straight, and lets have it on here in writing."

We await a proper response. SUK have pointed out their warranty catchall, which refers to "inappropriate use" or similar. I know of people who have had warranty claims homoured who have gone above the National Speed Limit on non public roads.

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

I noticed the comment about crusing and posing!!

I assume that *ALL* Integrales are taken on the track?? My assumption (probably wrong) was that most of them were just polished and taken for a sedate drive on a sunday??

I'll be honest, I'd love an Integrale, but I certainly wouldn't track it! That's where Westfields and Caterhams are far more fun!!!

Adam M

To be honest, I think as scooby owners we have to resign ourselves to the fact that people are always going to knock our cars for whatever reason they see fit.

Have a look at the lancer register.

I am really beginning to hate this whole attitude. I am actually losing faith in common decency.

There really should be a drivers club simply for car enthusiasts, who are members just because they like cars and other like minded people.

I love cosworths (rs200 and escort only), I love intergrales, I love evos why can't people understand mutual appreciation.

I remember a cosworth owner being shocked that I was hoping to put cosworth pistons in my new engine. Why not? it makes me so

slimjim16v

i have an integrale, do regular track days which always have a few scooby's in attendance. i always acknowledge scooby drivers on the road, as we both have something special and similar.
i LIKE scooby's and did consider replacing my 'grale with a 2 door import STI, type R, i think.
i prefer the 'grale, but i think the scooby is a more sensible car to own.
each has it's pro's and con's, each to his own, but both are amazing.
which is best? now that's a good question

[This message has been edited by slimjim16v (edited 06 September 2001).]

BarryWaterhouse

Quoting Andy Tang: "I'll be honest, I'd love an Integrale, but I certainly wouldn't track it! That's where Westfields and Caterhams are far more fun!!!"

We did a test day at Mallory in February when it was snowing! The Westfields and Caterhams didn't see where we went

Neil Smalley

I've followed this thread with interest.

I love the look of the integrale. It's a classic no matter how biased you are. Sure it may need TLC but then most performance cars do.

I've only ever seen one on the road and we had a friendly tussle on some Dual C. Straight line I just about had the legs of it, I nailed it around the bends(and it was trying) but then I let it pass me on the motorway as I did'nt want to go a 120 or whatever illegal speed it wanted to do.

We both turned and looked at each other, gave a smile and wave and he turned off the next junction. Both of us had had some fun, endangering nobody and without a hint of red mist. I don't often have a go, but in this case I was curious.

Performance wise my Std MY00 and the evo there was nothing much in it, he had more power higher up the rev range, me lower down.

I loved the look of the Evo and at that point I developed a deep respect for them.

A few months later I met a P1 owner in a car park, he'd bought a P1 to go with his Integrale. Performance and handling the P1 walked all over it, but for passion and character he preferred the integrale every time.

The japanese are very good at making a car do exactly what it says on the tin, they are less good at stirring the soul. That honour must go to the Italians.

I guess it's a bit like computer games, with the Impreza,Mitsi Evo's and skylines it's like plugging in your playstation and just going for it.

With the Integrale and to some extent the Audi Quattro's it's like the old spectrum computer games. They require much more attention, need lots of fiddling to get working and don't quite match the graphics but when you do start playing them you get dragged in, more than you would with the console with the flash graphics.

I wonder if people will look back at the Impreza MK1 with a fond a memories as the Integrale? Part of me hopes so, the other part, the emotional part of me thinks not.

Andy Tang

iTrader: (3)

Barry,

I guess that's a fair point! I suppose most high performance 4WD car would have done in those conditions!

Personally I wouldn't want to be out in a Caterham/Westfield when it's snowing!! Although I'd probably have a silly smile frozen on to my face!!

I'd prefer being toasty warm in my Impreza!!

Either way, I'd love to be able to afford an Integrale and a Caterham/Westfield, but I guess I'd have to just enjoy my Impreza!!

Andy - Trying not to offend anyone!

BarryWaterhouse

Neil - the P1 owner must have been Chris Maund - he brings his Martini Integrale to us for work.

He also has a Porsche 928 S4!

Thanks for your well balanced comments - almost all of which I agree with

blubell

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Blow Dog:
<B>Can I come now?[/quote]

Only if you dont make a mess

Al Cook

SlimJim16v

'each has it's pro's and con's, each to his own, but both are amazing'

Nicely put mate. Sums up the whole argument succinctly and very well.

All you have to do now is go back to the Evo BB and educate the rest.

spudgun

just read the intergrale site. looking at the various threads and comments, IMHO the comments are both vicious and gleeful.
if i see a 'grale' in north essex, i will gladly makes its life a feckin misery. no doubt i will read on the grale bbs how your rusting little sh1tbox nearly kept up with me. but we will see

Henners

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by spudgun:
<B>just read the intergrale site. looking at the various threads and comments, IMHO the comments are both vicious and gleeful.
if i see a 'grale' in north essex, i will gladly makes its life a feckin misery. no doubt i will read on the grale bbs how your rusting little sh1tbox nearly kept up with me. but we will see [/quote]

Goodness me, the sense of humour bypass operation was a complete success! Its such inflammatory comments that keep the discontent between grale and scooby owners boiling. Sooner or later, some poor bugger is going to be killed trying to keep up with another car of totally different spec. It would be a crying shame if it was forum member simply trying to get one over on the other forum members. My 'rusting ****box' is a good car, your scooby is a good car. Keep this in focus, neither of them is the be all and end all of automotive engineering, so stop trying to act like they are.

Chill.

Cheers,

Henners (16v grale owner)



[This message has been edited by Henners (edited 07 September 2001).]

Henners

[This message has been edited by Henners (edited 07 September 2001).]

Stelios

Had bought a Stratos once in the early 80's from Belgium with a m8. Only the windscreen wasnt rusting at the time/smelly/electrical probs/crash ride! Most difficult to drive xtemelly snappy at the limit ahh but the engine, the feel, the noise the drive... Best car i EVER been into/driven. Its like amore. One falls in love with the shortcomings and not in spite of them. Loved Italian cars especially Alphas and Lancias until FIAT bought em all... No real driving machines anymore bar the exotics. The once laughed upon Japs with cr@p handling/feel are making cars like the evo,scoob,rx7,supra,s2000 Where is the euro reply fellas?
Cuore sportivo: how do u spell that in Japanese

BarryWaterhouse

Stelios - I think after Lancia won the world rally championship for the 6th time in a row they decided they didn't have anything else to prove

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

This is a great post i think
BUT......
I LOVE my scoob and her 250bhp now this is a dealer option pack for the uk car, something that most manufacturers wont do (and it doesnt invalidate your warranty ) and thats the Prodrive Performance Pack
Now with Prodrive and their rally background i feel my car has been given that little bit extra special touch which she has its a very involving car IMHO and like any other (cossies etc) we all like to get a little more power out of them
As for the fact that subaru's are a mass manufactured car.... now dont get me wrong, but wernt all the imprezas, cossies, evos and intergrale's built because if you wanted to enter a car into rallies you needed so many "mass produced"???
Hmmmm i feel some people are talking BLX here...
Yes the Intergrale was a great car and still has its name up there but its no longer produced and it no longer has a network in the UK, now for what reason is this????
Im not trying to slate anyone but for a car that was classed as unreliable at best it isnt the sort of machine i want, i need relability, performance, security (dealerships!) and easy access to parts
Impreza's are common now, but 10 years ago so were intergrales and cosworths!!! now i see hardly any intergrales and the same ammount of cosworths (must be something about them, the cosworths that is )
The classic car....
Cosworth rs500, yes thats a classic
Intergrale evo... no....
Just because a car is mass produced doesnt mean that it cannot be a classic, or if its produced in small numbers does it make it a classic.... the intergrale was a road car, along with the cosworths and the imprezas, you see them on the road day in and day out (except the intergrale as i dont see any of those!!) if you wanted the "rally version" then you can fork out 250k for one!!
The nearest your going to get to a rally car on the road is cars like the Mitsu evo rs's and the Impreza type RA!

My car to me is what it is, a great car and great fun to drive i have a smile on my face everytime i get out of her and everytime i jump into her too the fact i dont own a cosworth or a lancia doesnt mean that i dont like or appricate them but i dont over estimate my scoob, shes good but there is always something better out there and the only car that is better out there is the Mitsu evo's IMHO, no other car is close.

Regards
Tony
(MY00 PPP'd turbo )

123ss

None of this really matters... For most of us (Scobby / Lancia / Ford owners) look at your bills and for the money we spend on exhausts , tyres chips, Air filters, disks, pads....we can afford to be in any car.. A Lancia , A scooby , an Evo 6 / 7 , a Porsche, a 355.....
I love going fast be it in a Grale, Porsche, Ferrari, or a 1.2 l Punto.... the joys of drifting at 30 mph.... A car is a car is a car.. (but on the track only Officer)
so lets all show up at Bedford on Sat 29 Sep and go headon sideways....
Similar / usual rules apply, no overtaking in corners, and no over taking the Grale..
SHOW RESPECT TO THE DADDY. !!!!
Kenny2188......

[This message has been edited by 123ss (edited 07 September 2001).]

BarryWaterhouse

Tony B - I presume it was me you were refering to about talking bollocks with regard to Integrale Evos being classics.

Perhaps you can enlighten me with some sensible reasoning - how many other cars out there in average condition still sell for half their new price when they are 10 years old?

Of course I appreciate that Imprezas and Mitsubishi Evos and the like are good cars - I just prefer the involvement and styling that Integrales give me - just a personal opinion.

Edited due to non use of spell checker.

[This message has been edited by BarryWaterhouse (edited 07 September 2001).]

EVOstick

One area where the Scooby is noticeably better and that is on the web.. This site is far better that the Delphiforums , which is rubbish..

An Integrale Evo2 owner who appreciates cars, whatever they are...

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Hiya Barry
If you look at the 22B for example, a car that is 3 yrs old and still going for 34k+, the reason its going for these prices (39k new) is that its rare, and being rare does not make a car a classic (even though the 22b is an excellent car ) no doubt when its 8 yrs old it will also be fetching half its original price if not more but a classic is a car that everyone enjoys, not just performance cars, as has been said in previous posts, cars like the mini and beetle are classics, they are break through designs and changed the face of motoring, what was done with the intergrale isnt, i suppose the most "classic" of 4wd rally cars is the Audi Quattro UR, this car was a breakthrough, thats what gives a car "classic" status and not because its rare.

Regards
Tony

matt d

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evotion:
<B>Umm, lets have an Evoness test..

Scooby Delta Evo

Looks 4/10 9/10
Overall Speed 8/10 7/10
Desirability 8/10 9/10
Kudos/street cred 7/10 8/10
Heritage 5/10 8/10
Sports pedigree 7/10 10/10
Running costs 8/10 6/10
Involvement 7/10 9/10
Origin (Jpn/I) 5/10 10/10
Rarity (UK) 6/10 9/10

Total 65/100 85/100

Conclusion.

Integrale Evo - Cult car, a true 'Great'. Icon of Icons..

Scooby - fast car, almost a 'Great', in fact.
Nicknamed after an ugly, noisy dog.. very apt.[/quote]

Only two of your categories have anything to do with driving (involvement and speed), and one to do with ownership (running costs). The Impreza wins with 23/30 vs 22/30, by your own judgement - enough said

14,500rpm

i think this thread is getting a little long in the tooth. grale guys like their cars, scooby guys like theirs, each respects the choice and the machinery of the other, end of story. arguments as to which (if either) is a classic car are entirely fruitless - one mans classic is another mans chicken coop, and its entirely down to personal choice. i happen to think the mk 1 renault 5 is a classic car, many will probably disagree...its just my opinion, see?


a renault 5, yesterday.

time to lock mr moderator?

14,500rpm

pacenote

TonyB - bit late to reply to your post - late in from work again
Some interesting points however:
I wondered how long it would be before this thread got to the dealership issue.
What was the reason Lancia pulled out of the UK - because certain parts of the British media kept going on about one Lancia model that kept rusting away and therefore all Lancia models would do the same, so poor sales and goodbye UK. However there are still approved Lancia dealers in the UK (admittedly not many), there’s plenty in mainland Europe though. Parts (and servicing) are still obtainable from Fiat dealers. (Incidentally where’s the official dealer network in the UK for an imported Impreza WRX or STI)
On what do you base “a car that was classed as unreliable at best” ?.
The Integrale is not an unreliable car provided it is regularly serviced by a competent mechanic who knows the car, the same can be said of the impreza. You don’t win ( with the delta between 1987 and 1992) 6 World Rally Construction championships, 5 World Rally Drivers championships, 5 European Drivers championships, 5 Italian Drivers championships by building unreliable cars.

“Impreza's are common now, but 10 years ago so were integrales and cosworths”

Integrales have never been common in the UK although there are probably more now than when Lancia were over here selling them !

The Delta Integrale was the car to beat on the world rally circuit in the late eighties early nineties and Subaru, Mitsubishi, Toyota and others set about building cars to beat it, these have evolved into the great cars we can drive today. I reckon that makes the car a classic.

Cosworth RS500, great car, not classic
Escort MK 11 RS1800 great car, definitely classic

regards

60R

EvoDevo

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by spudgun:
<B>just read the intergrale site. looking at the various threads and comments, IMHO the comments are both vicious and gleeful.
if i see a 'grale' in north essex, i will gladly makes its life a feckin misery. no doubt i will read on the grale bbs how your rusting little sh1tbox nearly kept up with me. but we will see [/quote]