Religon - root of all evil?
14 September 2001, 06:09 AM
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The next writing is by no means meant to harm, humiliate or offend any person.
IMHO, religion is all about having faith in yourself and selfconfidence and so on. People that find themselves in enduring times might fail that feeling and they may turn around to being religious as a source for strength.
This is more apparent in, for instance, less developed countries, where people have lower self-esteem and less to be proud of. In that case, it's nice to have a big religious movement strengthening you, although the rest of the world still won't see it like that. But to show you're there, you simply fly an airplane into a big building...
Am I going too far here? Discussion?
IMHO, religion is all about having faith in yourself and selfconfidence and so on. People that find themselves in enduring times might fail that feeling and they may turn around to being religious as a source for strength.
This is more apparent in, for instance, less developed countries, where people have lower self-esteem and less to be proud of. In that case, it's nice to have a big religious movement strengthening you, although the rest of the world still won't see it like that. But to show you're there, you simply fly an airplane into a big building...
Am I going too far here? Discussion?
14 September 2001, 06:57 AM
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Some very valid points in the posts above.
I know a lot of people that have turned to God in times of hardship, illness etc. My own wife has found a lot of strength from God and the Christian community as she has struggled with a painfull back.
It is a problem that in countries such as these, people think they have it all and dont need God.
However going through a bad time, hardship etc does not account for all Christians. I certainly didnt become a happy clappy during a bad period. A lot of Christians in the USA did not become Christians due to facts discussed above. There are a lot of very successfull people that are Christians.
One of the Wealthiest people in the UK owns IM. He is a Christian that puts a lot of money back to people in need.
Jonathan
I know a lot of people that have turned to God in times of hardship, illness etc. My own wife has found a lot of strength from God and the Christian community as she has struggled with a painfull back.
It is a problem that in countries such as these, people think they have it all and dont need God.
However going through a bad time, hardship etc does not account for all Christians. I certainly didnt become a happy clappy during a bad period. A lot of Christians in the USA did not become Christians due to facts discussed above. There are a lot of very successfull people that are Christians.
One of the Wealthiest people in the UK owns IM. He is a Christian that puts a lot of money back to people in need.
Jonathan
14 September 2001, 08:07 AM
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Go I hate these symantic arguments, namely the old comeback of 'religion is not the cause of wars, but an excuse etc' blah blah blah.
Merely the fact that religion has been used to justify so much murder and hatred in the past is enough for me to want it banned completely. How can anything that comes good from religion possibly justify all the killing that is excused because of it ?
Another thing - Religion creates suicide bombers. How else would you pursuade someone to kill themselves unless they were sure they would see Allah on the other side ? It's much more difficult to turn Atheists into suicide bombers.
Gary
Merely the fact that religion has been used to justify so much murder and hatred in the past is enough for me to want it banned completely. How can anything that comes good from religion possibly justify all the killing that is excused because of it ?
Another thing - Religion creates suicide bombers. How else would you pursuade someone to kill themselves unless they were sure they would see Allah on the other side ? It's much more difficult to turn Atheists into suicide bombers.
Gary
14 September 2001, 08:18 AM
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I'll always remember the first episode (or thereabouts) of Red Dwarf, just about sums up my attitude towards the bible.
'Experts believe that they have found a whole new page from the bible, previously undiscovered but sheds a whole new light, it reads as such -
This book is entirely fictional, any persons, places, events are purely made up and are not based on any fact etc etc'
'Experts believe that they have found a whole new page from the bible, previously undiscovered but sheds a whole new light, it reads as such -
This book is entirely fictional, any persons, places, events are purely made up and are not based on any fact etc etc'
14 September 2001, 08:49 AM
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I'd just like to thank you all for trying discuss this rather that turn it into a slagging match.
Some very interesting points have been made, on all sides.
One thing is for sure, my views and perceptions have been changed this week, my thoughts remain with the poor families and victims of this disaster.
Thanks again,
Alex
Some very interesting points have been made, on all sides.
One thing is for sure, my views and perceptions have been changed this week, my thoughts remain with the poor families and victims of this disaster.
Thanks again,
Alex
14 September 2001, 09:04 AM
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IMHO being religious (any religion) is no guarantee or even much of an indication of someones propensity for good or evil.
Those that 'have' are less likely to resort to evil than those that 'have not', but then those that have do plenty of things that can be construed as evil by others, simply by caring less about those that have not.
I'm not religious, but that's my choice. Which religion? which god? aligning myself with one religion or another simply polarizes me from all the others as they can't all be right....which one do you believe? which God do you 'worship'? I believe it may as well be the sun or water because without either nothing would live.
Peace, controlling one's harmful instincts when they arise, learning to be understanding and tolerant, the difference between good and bad (and that's where the problem lies, the interpretations and justifications vary immensely) these are what really count to me. What unites one group of people divides them from another group.
I think though that a lot is done in the name of religion that goes against all that it is supposed to stand for - and therefore I turn my back on it.
Try and understand the man in a poor country who is trying to defend his territory against a larger bullying state who wants his oilfileds - the only thing that keeps his state in food (because the 'civilised world pays him for oil), or whose nation has been involved in it's own struggle only to see a huge western state blast the hell out of his family and country. He is a prime target for manipulation by a power hungry individual who uses a common belief and a common need to unite people against 'their foes'.... Do we see or care about that suffering until it hurts us? do we in the rich western world with our cosy ideal religions, who almost never have to fight for anything understand the plight? or care about the starving in some other no-hope country?
People are the root of evil. Religion is just something for us to believe in - a set of rules for life - which we interpret and use when and how we want and ignore when we have to - or choose to.
People are the root of evil because above all else in nature we have the ability to think, because we are greedy, because of money, power, desire...
[This message has been edited by Jerry B (edited 14 September 2001).]
Those that 'have' are less likely to resort to evil than those that 'have not', but then those that have do plenty of things that can be construed as evil by others, simply by caring less about those that have not.
I'm not religious, but that's my choice. Which religion? which god? aligning myself with one religion or another simply polarizes me from all the others as they can't all be right....which one do you believe? which God do you 'worship'? I believe it may as well be the sun or water because without either nothing would live.
Peace, controlling one's harmful instincts when they arise, learning to be understanding and tolerant, the difference between good and bad (and that's where the problem lies, the interpretations and justifications vary immensely) these are what really count to me. What unites one group of people divides them from another group.
I think though that a lot is done in the name of religion that goes against all that it is supposed to stand for - and therefore I turn my back on it.
Try and understand the man in a poor country who is trying to defend his territory against a larger bullying state who wants his oilfileds - the only thing that keeps his state in food (because the 'civilised world pays him for oil), or whose nation has been involved in it's own struggle only to see a huge western state blast the hell out of his family and country. He is a prime target for manipulation by a power hungry individual who uses a common belief and a common need to unite people against 'their foes'.... Do we see or care about that suffering until it hurts us? do we in the rich western world with our cosy ideal religions, who almost never have to fight for anything understand the plight? or care about the starving in some other no-hope country?
People are the root of evil. Religion is just something for us to believe in - a set of rules for life - which we interpret and use when and how we want and ignore when we have to - or choose to.
People are the root of evil because above all else in nature we have the ability to think, because we are greedy, because of money, power, desire...
[This message has been edited by Jerry B (edited 14 September 2001).]
14 September 2001, 10:20 AM
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This is a very interesting one, and some of the replies are very thought provoking.
Personally, I do not believe in God.
I think the problem with some religious types, is that they can get very extreme in their beliefs, and those extremes can lead to the sort of terrorism that is prevalent in the world today.
After the terrible events in the U.S.A. this week, I noticed, with considerable disgust, the footage of street parties in Palestine celebrating the mass murder of innocent civilians. Children of all ages were cheering and dancing but the looks on there faces seem to say they didn't really know what they were celebrating.
I suppose we don't know what propaganda they are being fed, and by the time they are adults they may have a completely unfactual biased view of 'evil America'. Channel that aggression via the false belief that you are doing it in the name of a 'God' and terrorists can easily be 'churned out'.
This is my opinion only of course.
Are we going to have a three minute 'no post' at 11.00am?
blubs
Personally, I do not believe in God.
I think the problem with some religious types, is that they can get very extreme in their beliefs, and those extremes can lead to the sort of terrorism that is prevalent in the world today.
After the terrible events in the U.S.A. this week, I noticed, with considerable disgust, the footage of street parties in Palestine celebrating the mass murder of innocent civilians. Children of all ages were cheering and dancing but the looks on there faces seem to say they didn't really know what they were celebrating.
I suppose we don't know what propaganda they are being fed, and by the time they are adults they may have a completely unfactual biased view of 'evil America'. Channel that aggression via the false belief that you are doing it in the name of a 'God' and terrorists can easily be 'churned out'.
This is my opinion only of course.
Are we going to have a three minute 'no post' at 11.00am?
blubs
14 September 2001, 01:28 PM
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I don't personally believe that reilgion is the root of all evil. I don't believe in God in any shape or form whatsoever and I think that certain religions are headed by some of the most corrupt and evil institutions ever known. But that is not the fault of the religion, but of the basic human nature to fight each other, to be territorial, competitive, jealous etc.
Religion is just another front for human failings. Osama Bin Laden is a Muslim, but that matters not. His hatred of all things American does not stem from religous beliefs. He may label this as "Jihad", but he is just a terrorist, like the IRA or ETA or the Tanil Tigers. The list goes on, they are just anarchists, groups of like minded trouble makers who find a so called common cause as an outlet for their anti-social behaviour.
If you look at the gang warfare problems of LA over the past 30 years, the situation is exactly the same, but there is no religion involved. It's just territorial or racial. Unfortunately, humans feel the need to wage war against each other, religion and all the other reasons or excuses over the millenia are just a front.
Although I feel that this latest act of terrorism against the US is abhorrent in the extreme, let us not forget that the US has sponsored terrorism for decades. They call it supporting rebels, but to those countries it affects, they are terrorists just like any other. And who can forget the huge amounts of money that IRA sympathisers in the US have given that has contributed to UK citizens losing their lives. They were also the perpetrators of the worst sneek attack in human history - 175,000 killed in two attacks in August 1945. Those people were not waging war on the US, but they paid the price, just as those poor *******s in Manhatten did.
The US should hunt these people down and punish them for their crimes, and then they should take a long hard look at why so many nations see the US as a global pariah. Only when they change their attitude to the rest of the world will the rest of world change theirs towards them. Maybe then, such terrible acts as were seen on Tuesday will be a distant and unpleasant memory.
Geezer
Religion is just another front for human failings. Osama Bin Laden is a Muslim, but that matters not. His hatred of all things American does not stem from religous beliefs. He may label this as "Jihad", but he is just a terrorist, like the IRA or ETA or the Tanil Tigers. The list goes on, they are just anarchists, groups of like minded trouble makers who find a so called common cause as an outlet for their anti-social behaviour.
If you look at the gang warfare problems of LA over the past 30 years, the situation is exactly the same, but there is no religion involved. It's just territorial or racial. Unfortunately, humans feel the need to wage war against each other, religion and all the other reasons or excuses over the millenia are just a front.
Although I feel that this latest act of terrorism against the US is abhorrent in the extreme, let us not forget that the US has sponsored terrorism for decades. They call it supporting rebels, but to those countries it affects, they are terrorists just like any other. And who can forget the huge amounts of money that IRA sympathisers in the US have given that has contributed to UK citizens losing their lives. They were also the perpetrators of the worst sneek attack in human history - 175,000 killed in two attacks in August 1945. Those people were not waging war on the US, but they paid the price, just as those poor *******s in Manhatten did.
The US should hunt these people down and punish them for their crimes, and then they should take a long hard look at why so many nations see the US as a global pariah. Only when they change their attitude to the rest of the world will the rest of world change theirs towards them. Maybe then, such terrible acts as were seen on Tuesday will be a distant and unpleasant memory.
Geezer
14 September 2001, 01:46 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Geezer:
<B> They were also the perpetrators of the worst sneek attack in human history - 175,000 killed in two attacks in August 1945. Those people were not waging war on the US,
[/quote]
Eh? this is revisionist drivel of the worst kind.
Next you'll be telling us that Coventry and the East End of London were bombed by innocent squadrons of German pilots on behalf of blameless people who weren't personally waging war on Britain.
FFS.
The rest of what you said is fair comment though.
<B> They were also the perpetrators of the worst sneek attack in human history - 175,000 killed in two attacks in August 1945. Those people were not waging war on the US,
[/quote]
Eh? this is revisionist drivel of the worst kind.
Next you'll be telling us that Coventry and the East End of London were bombed by innocent squadrons of German pilots on behalf of blameless people who weren't personally waging war on Britain.
FFS.
The rest of what you said is fair comment though.
14 September 2001, 02:06 PM
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Barry,
The point I'm making is that these people see themsleves as being at war with the US, but have targeted mainly its citizens, which everybody abhors. Those people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no threat to the US, nor did they even have the will to carry on the war, only the military Government and the army itself did. They paid the price for their leaders failings with no warning whatsoever. The comparison is valid even if you do not agree with it. Also, it is easy to justify something that happened half way around the world 60 years ago, but not so this weeks events which are still fresh in the mind. I'm sure if you had asked the living dead who were left at Hiroshima on 8th August 1945, they would have had some fairly similar feelings to those in Mahatten and rightly so.
Your comments about the Germans are ridiculous and childish. It is wrong of any nation / organisation to target civilan populations to punish the government of that country. Why people seem to think that Dresden/Coventry/Hiroshima are all acceptable but tuesdays events are not is beyond me. Either you accept that the gloves are off in a war and take whatever comes or you condemn the deaths of innocents, no matter who they are.
Geezer
The point I'm making is that these people see themsleves as being at war with the US, but have targeted mainly its citizens, which everybody abhors. Those people in Hiroshima and Nagasaki were no threat to the US, nor did they even have the will to carry on the war, only the military Government and the army itself did. They paid the price for their leaders failings with no warning whatsoever. The comparison is valid even if you do not agree with it. Also, it is easy to justify something that happened half way around the world 60 years ago, but not so this weeks events which are still fresh in the mind. I'm sure if you had asked the living dead who were left at Hiroshima on 8th August 1945, they would have had some fairly similar feelings to those in Mahatten and rightly so.
Your comments about the Germans are ridiculous and childish. It is wrong of any nation / organisation to target civilan populations to punish the government of that country. Why people seem to think that Dresden/Coventry/Hiroshima are all acceptable but tuesdays events are not is beyond me. Either you accept that the gloves are off in a war and take whatever comes or you condemn the deaths of innocents, no matter who they are.
Geezer
14 September 2001, 02:30 PM
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Yep I'm probably cynical as well as childish. That'll make you right then. 
And exactly what I'm saying is in 39/45 some good people had the ***** to stand up and say enough is enough. The gloves were off.
Thankfully they did what they did, even though I'm sure they didn't want to do it.
Are we now to continue offering the other cheek, to these "people" whilst they continue to laugh at and usurp the freedoms our compatriots died for?
Or perhaps we should send in our armed forces to assist the good and innocent of the countries involved to rid them of their evil governments?
And exactly what I'm saying is in 39/45 some good people had the ***** to stand up and say enough is enough. The gloves were off.
Thankfully they did what they did, even though I'm sure they didn't want to do it.
Are we now to continue offering the other cheek, to these "people" whilst they continue to laugh at and usurp the freedoms our compatriots died for?
Or perhaps we should send in our armed forces to assist the good and innocent of the countries involved to rid them of their evil governments?
14 September 2001, 02:48 PM
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Fine, so you accept that the gloves will come off in these situations. Well, Osama Bin Laden believes he is at war with the US, so the gloves are off, so you condone what he has done.
Please point out the difference. He believes (rightly or wrongly) that through US policy, many innocent Muslims have lost their lives. He is therefore, according to your argument, totally justified in what he has done by targeting the workers in the WTC.
Please point out the difference. He believes (rightly or wrongly) that through US policy, many innocent Muslims have lost their lives. He is therefore, according to your argument, totally justified in what he has done by targeting the workers in the WTC.
14 September 2001, 03:13 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Geezer:
<B>...you are an innocent ...
[/quote]
Yep - It wasn't me. I didn't do it. I wasn't even there that day. Geezer is my alibi
<B>...you are an innocent ...
[/quote]Yep - It wasn't me. I didn't do it. I wasn't even there that day. Geezer is my alibi
14 September 2001, 03:16 PM
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FB is not innocent. He has me on a hit list! 
so he is bound to take your side.
And to think my ancestors suffered from spud deprivation same as his, because of British policy. Bah! You find out who your friends are.
I'm not arguing semantics because I know I am right, same as you are.
Bye! Have a nice weekend, but watch out for those fanatics on Sunday morning parking cars all over the shop!
so he is bound to take your side.And to think my ancestors suffered from spud deprivation same as his, because of British policy. Bah! You find out who your friends are.
I'm not arguing semantics because I know I am right, same as you are.
Bye! Have a nice weekend, but watch out for those fanatics on Sunday morning parking cars all over the shop!
14 September 2001, 03:55 PM
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As several of you have said this is not actually about religion. As with all things in life there are people that take it to the extream, some drink so much they endanger lives, others do drugs, some commit insane and criminal acts and use/misuse religious/political doctorine to justify their actions.
It is the extreamists that we should worry about, they appear in may forms and often exhibit behavour which is beyond the understanding of 'normal' balanced human beings.
It is the extreamists that we should worry about, they appear in may forms and often exhibit behavour which is beyond the understanding of 'normal' balanced human beings.
14 September 2001, 11:57 PM
#84
Jesus Christ is the centre of Christian 'religion'. People make mistakes ALL the time.
If you can ever get hold of of a 'red-letter' bible look in the gospels and see which were the things that Jesus said!
- There is a huge difference between those words and (to our shame
) the things the 'church' does and secondly an even greater difference to what the non-church going public believes Christianity is about.
Mick
If you can ever get hold of of a 'red-letter' bible look in the gospels and see which were the things that Jesus said!
- There is a huge difference between those words and (to our shame
) the things the 'church' does and secondly an even greater difference to what the non-church going public believes Christianity is about.Mick
15 September 2001, 01:12 AM
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As i see it...
Religion, in many poverty stricken countries, such as Afghanistan is used by the educated, powerful or rich to instil false hope and promises to those who are penniless and desperate. They are brain washed into believing what they are told to believe, and as a result, they also do as they are told by their leaders, as they will be "sent to paradise".
In the developed world we live in, it is hard for us to understand these people, I'm not defending them in the slightest, just trying to make some sense of it all.
Watching the pictures on television of children celebrating in the streets after learning of the NY disaster shocked us all, but it also shows how these people are taught from a very young age what is *right*
In this case religion (IMO) is the route cause as people in developing countries rely on their gods and the people who lead them and preach to them to be doing the right thing, much like we are with our parents.
Just my thoughts
Religion, in many poverty stricken countries, such as Afghanistan is used by the educated, powerful or rich to instil false hope and promises to those who are penniless and desperate. They are brain washed into believing what they are told to believe, and as a result, they also do as they are told by their leaders, as they will be "sent to paradise".
In the developed world we live in, it is hard for us to understand these people, I'm not defending them in the slightest, just trying to make some sense of it all.
Watching the pictures on television of children celebrating in the streets after learning of the NY disaster shocked us all, but it also shows how these people are taught from a very young age what is *right*
In this case religion (IMO) is the route cause as people in developing countries rely on their gods and the people who lead them and preach to them to be doing the right thing, much like we are with our parents.
Just my thoughts
15 September 2001, 10:21 AM
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I've read this thread with interest since my plea to have it closed was suspended until it got out of hand.
Religion is not the cause of this, people are.
Bush will never win the war against terrorism because
1. So long as people feel the desire for revenge they will carry it out.
2. So long as there is racial hatred it will fuel violence.
3. So long as people feel jealousy it will fuel the desire to get even
4. So long as people have the desire to control others, they will seek to do so.
No where in that list does religion come into it. We, as mankind can no more get rid of those feelings above(even in smaller measure) than we can the desire to love or to be loved.
It's a fundimental part of our makeup.
Religion has been used as an excuse to control people for years, from Islam to a wierd cult in the USA.
Ok here's the difference, in a minor non religious way.
We often get flame wars over which is best, scoobs, integrale's, Cossies etc etc. Has religion got anything to do with that? No
So why do so many people get heated up about it?
Because inside us is the desire to control others, justify our choices and form relationships with those of like mind.
Now a scooby/cossie flame war is light years away from ramming planes into buildings, but the emotions involved are the same.
Ok, another example.
You want to get promotion at work, or land a sales contract. What's the best way of doing it?
Do a good job, sure. BUT a big part of it is forming the relationship with your boss/customer and manipulating the situation to your advantage.
You've just manipulated people for your own ends, with not a religious icon in sight. You have sought to control others for your own ends.
We all do it, either unconciously or deliberatley
Christianity, Islam etc has given the world a lot back than it has ever taken.
Now is not a good time to debate religious matters, people are upset and still stunned by what has gone on.
I've been doing some reading around and found this in the bible from Ecclesiastes I think
"
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.
What does the worker gain from his toil?
I have seen the burden God has laid on men.
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live.
That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil--this is the gift of God.
Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account.
And I saw something else under the sun: In the place of judgment--wickedness was there, in the place of justice--wickedness was there.
I thought in my heart, "God will bring to judgment both the righteous and the wicked, for there will be a time for every activity, a time for every deed."
Thus endeth the sermon
[This message has been edited by Neil Smalley (edited 15 September 2001).]
Religion is not the cause of this, people are.
Bush will never win the war against terrorism because
1. So long as people feel the desire for revenge they will carry it out.
2. So long as there is racial hatred it will fuel violence.
3. So long as people feel jealousy it will fuel the desire to get even
4. So long as people have the desire to control others, they will seek to do so.
No where in that list does religion come into it. We, as mankind can no more get rid of those feelings above(even in smaller measure) than we can the desire to love or to be loved.
It's a fundimental part of our makeup.
Religion has been used as an excuse to control people for years, from Islam to a wierd cult in the USA.
Ok here's the difference, in a minor non religious way.
We often get flame wars over which is best, scoobs, integrale's, Cossies etc etc. Has religion got anything to do with that? No
So why do so many people get heated up about it?
Because inside us is the desire to control others, justify our choices and form relationships with those of like mind.
Now a scooby/cossie flame war is light years away from ramming planes into buildings, but the emotions involved are the same.
Ok, another example.
You want to get promotion at work, or land a sales contract. What's the best way of doing it?
Do a good job, sure. BUT a big part of it is forming the relationship with your boss/customer and manipulating the situation to your advantage.
You've just manipulated people for your own ends, with not a religious icon in sight. You have sought to control others for your own ends.
We all do it, either unconciously or deliberatley
Christianity, Islam etc has given the world a lot back than it has ever taken.
Now is not a good time to debate religious matters, people are upset and still stunned by what has gone on.
I've been doing some reading around and found this in the bible from Ecclesiastes I think
"
There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
a time to be born and a time to die, a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal, a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh, a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them, a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and a time to give up, a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend, a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate, a time for war and a time for peace.
What does the worker gain from his toil?
I have seen the burden God has laid on men.
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
I know that there is nothing better for men than to be happy and do good while they live.
That everyone may eat and drink, and find satisfaction in all his toil--this is the gift of God.
Whatever is has already been, and what will be has been before; and God will call the past to account.
And I saw something else under the sun: In the place of judgment--wickedness was there, in the place of justice--wickedness was there.
I thought in my heart, "God will bring to judgment both the righteous and the wicked, for there will be a time for every activity, a time for every deed."
Thus endeth the sermon
[This message has been edited by Neil Smalley (edited 15 September 2001).]
15 September 2001, 11:32 AM
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Excellent dissertation Neil.
Very thought provoking.
I've read the entire thread and find it very enlightening.
We all have opinions and unfortunately, by it's very definition, opinions differ.
Reafirmation of an opinion creates dissention. Dissentions escalate and can untimatly lead in many directions. Not the least of which is war.
Mankind has the intellect to justify his existance and the ability to rationalize any action.
When emotions enter into the equation intelligence seems to depart.
Whether we were placed here by an omnipotent being or we evolved from the slime it doesn't have much revelancy unless one wants to rationalize their actions.
ie; I'm an animal, therefor I can act like an animal,
Or, I'm the product of a higher power and will act as the creator would want. (by who's concept of a creator?)
In both cases we can evolve or descend into barbaric actions.
Athiestic, Agnostic or God oriented. We all have the ability to make choices.
There's a minority in this world that seem to make what the majority consider "bad" choices.
I guess my question would be to the affect, will the "good" be able to overcome the "bad"?
And by what perspective do we make judgement?
Very thought provoking.
I've read the entire thread and find it very enlightening.
We all have opinions and unfortunately, by it's very definition, opinions differ.
Reafirmation of an opinion creates dissention. Dissentions escalate and can untimatly lead in many directions. Not the least of which is war.
Mankind has the intellect to justify his existance and the ability to rationalize any action.
When emotions enter into the equation intelligence seems to depart.
Whether we were placed here by an omnipotent being or we evolved from the slime it doesn't have much revelancy unless one wants to rationalize their actions.
ie; I'm an animal, therefor I can act like an animal,
Or, I'm the product of a higher power and will act as the creator would want. (by who's concept of a creator?)
In both cases we can evolve or descend into barbaric actions.
Athiestic, Agnostic or God oriented. We all have the ability to make choices.
There's a minority in this world that seem to make what the majority consider "bad" choices.
I guess my question would be to the affect, will the "good" be able to overcome the "bad"?
And by what perspective do we make judgement?
15 September 2001, 03:52 PM
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The problem isn't religion but the people who believe in it. They take an obvious phrase and turn it into the death of all who believe in an alternative religion. We should not have to suffer the teachings of any sort of religion on TV or in school. Because you are not getting taught facts -just opinion's. Anyway like guns it should be banned as it kills in the wrong hands!
Rant over
They take an obvious phrase and turn it into the death of all who believe in an alternative religion. We should not have to suffer the teachings of any sort of religion on TV or in school. Because you are not getting taught facts -just opinion's. Anyway like guns it should be banned as it kills in the wrong hands!Rant over
15 September 2001, 04:17 PM
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religion has been the cause for more wars and conflict throughout the world than anything else
it's responsible for millions of deaths and political tension
without religion, racism would also been reduced
"Religion is the opium for the masses" - Lenin
people who have no goals in life, no real aims, no way of controlling their thoughts and actions and those that need guidance, are religious. depending on how independent they are, their following of religion differs.
if they could understand the scientific approaches to life, they would follow that instead, and it's true that as more and more people become educated and as science progresses, religious followings have dropped
religion has only ever been used to explain what science can't. science progressions mean that "miracles" and acts of a superior being can be accounted for and explained.
as soon as the origin of the universe can be categorically explained and proved, religion will no longer exist.
personally i hope religion dies out, especially in the more economically developed countries in the northern hemisphere and in the west.
it's responsible for millions of deaths and political tension
without religion, racism would also been reduced
"Religion is the opium for the masses" - Lenin
people who have no goals in life, no real aims, no way of controlling their thoughts and actions and those that need guidance, are religious. depending on how independent they are, their following of religion differs.
if they could understand the scientific approaches to life, they would follow that instead, and it's true that as more and more people become educated and as science progresses, religious followings have dropped
religion has only ever been used to explain what science can't. science progressions mean that "miracles" and acts of a superior being can be accounted for and explained.
as soon as the origin of the universe can be categorically explained and proved, religion will no longer exist.
personally i hope religion dies out, especially in the more economically developed countries in the northern hemisphere and in the west.
15 September 2001, 04:29 PM
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sorry to add some more...but it always looks as though you've said sommit dodgy when the edited post notice is there
...to continue on how religion changes its story as science has progressed...
two forms of theism. classical and process. classical theism stated that god was omnipotent, had complete control etc...
process altered that to say that god influenced people's lives with their knowledge of good and evil and which was which. it then goes on to say how god doesn't restrict free will in humans and although he provides "lures" for them to know the difference between right and wrong, they are ultimately responsible for their actions...
the ways in which stories change just makes religion look ridiculous
it's like somebody keeps changing interpretations of the bible to make religion unfalsifiable.
the bible was advanced in thought for its day, that's about all in my opinion
...to continue on how religion changes its story as science has progressed...
two forms of theism. classical and process. classical theism stated that god was omnipotent, had complete control etc...
process altered that to say that god influenced people's lives with their knowledge of good and evil and which was which. it then goes on to say how god doesn't restrict free will in humans and although he provides "lures" for them to know the difference between right and wrong, they are ultimately responsible for their actions...
the ways in which stories change just makes religion look ridiculous
it's like somebody keeps changing interpretations of the bible to make religion unfalsifiable.
the bible was advanced in thought for its day, that's about all in my opinion