chrisp

Transmission losses arent to bad if you have the right transmission . Mine went from 258 at the fly to 195 at the wheels. As apposed to a couple of P1s on the day who had 280+ and had less at the wheels . So which car is quicker, the one with more at the fly or the one with more at the wheels ?????????.

David_Wallis

What im saying is if people look then you will see that someone sells gearsets and states that they are being "tested" with a x amount of power...

Incidently is mine the highest powered 5dr UK in the country?

David

Adam M

Oh I see now.

How can they be tested to beyond their torque claims unless someone is producing that torque.

I wonder who did the testing?

Tazz Kill Er

FYI, BHP & Torque ar two different ways of expressing the same thing, if you look at any dyno graph at 5250 rpm you will see that the two numbers are the same, this is because youmeasure torque on a dyno and then multiply it by a pre defined number (too may beers have made me forget) to show the calculated BHP.

At the end of the day if you've got a lot of power, and 400bhp is a lot in something that is the size of a scooby, then its quick.

David_Wallis

Myself and adam are well aware of the crossover point and how its calculated..

Adam... Mark showed me a set of rods when we were round at trouts.. buying a set very soon.. just sourcing the block.

David

wos 69

well done

Adam M

david,

they're nice arent they? I have the very same rods in my 2.5 and my 2.2 . looks like yours will be ready before mine!

You already have had more orque than I have ever produced! although some would say i can torque for england.

I hope you do this on an entirely new engine. It would be a waste to make your engien so good, and not even destroy it before fitting your new one. At least drive it in its current set up.

I havent driven my car for almost a year. Most powerful car I have driven is probably pats mr2 turb, or morays impressive. Imagine the jump when I get into my car! its going to be fun to say the least.

Putting my foot down in morays uk lumped sti was a surprise. Perhaps should consider running the new engine at 0.4 bar or so for a while, until i learn to drive a fast car again.

Tazz Killer,

Yes I am well aware of the cross over point, but you miss the point entirely.

When testing the limit of the gearbox, the fact that a car makes 500 bhp does not mean the gearbox it uses has to withstand 500lbft.

consider a steam locomotive. They can turn at 30 rpm, but the torque would destroy the gearbox. The bhp they make isnt that high though as power is torque x angular velocity (units are crucial here). I am sure their graphs would cross at 5250rpm too, if the steam engine could make it that far!

My (dads) S2000 makes 240bhp, but the gearbox only needs to withstand about 140 lbft, because, it only makes its power by being able to rev high.

In short, if you want to test a gearbox to 500lbft, you have to put 500lbft through it and see if it breaks.

David_Wallis

im on the lookout for a closed deck block now... need to speak to mark about cranks, pistons, cams, valves and heads.. and Compression Ratio's... think maybe even a pectel

Oh and dont worry, will kill it first!

thats my speciality..

David

[Edited by David_Wallis - 10/29/2002 2:29:49 PM]

Adam M

speak to pat about pectel.

knowing what you are like, I cant imagine you will want to pay for it .

Crank, depending on your power, dont waste your money, standard is great. I was forced into going for a billet because my crank was so far out of tolerance, it was a joke.

valves? hmmm. again, depending on what you are doing, I wouldnt bother.

I dont want to leave any stone unturned, as the power I am intending to run, things that have not beena problem before start to rear their ugly heads.

it will mean that I will have some sodium filled sti valves going spare, which could save you some money.

It looks like mark may have a spare set of reprofiled cams for sale too. Dont know what he thinks of the cam profile, but Kent redommended it to me based on what i am intending to run.

You will want some head bolts, or head studs though, no question.

David_Wallis

He told me about the cams

I wont be paying mega money for anything... have access to engineering tools.. so can rebore and surface grind etc myself..

need to choose Pistons, Rods, Bolts, Head Studs.. Cams, carefully.

hmm... need to make it a little different..

David

[Edited by David_Wallis - 10/29/2002 3:16:07 PM]

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Thanks for all the good wishes. Breaking 400bhp was a surprise to me as we expected a little under that.
The turbo installation was a nightmare and completed on Friday with a trip to Swindon for mapping on Saturday.
The current map is very safe and conservative and Bob (Rawle/BRD) is very confident there is a good bit more to come. I am looking at a few other possibilities that will give more again but have to decide if I want to keep going as this trail started a year ago and seems to be never ending.
For those that want to know: BHP=TorqueX RPM/5250
Chrisp: PAW=318BHP I am amazed that you have such a low transmission loss and wonder as to the reasons?
The 417bhp result was preceeded by a run at 424bhp. On each occasion there was a recorded boost spike at 25psi but the car held 23psi all the way and the run stopped about 7krpm. There is scope for more power beyond that I think.
On the road during mapping we were running much more boost but as we are now in uncharted waters as it were we have gone for a safe option in the interim.

chrisp

Harvey, firstly nice to see a car break the magic 400bhp in public.

Not quite sure why my losses are less on my RA but the RR measured 195 at the wheels and then 63.5 bhp transmission losses giving 258.5bhp at the fly. The car is an MY00 RA import run on optimax and booster so it should be close to 276bhp and maybe a bit more due to the straight through centre and BB (but still catted DP). It does have a RA gear set with gives it about 105mph at 7,600rpm in 4th which probably has more to do with it. The two decatted P1 on the day showed just over 280bhp and both had around 190bhp at the wheels. Assuming the transmission losses were wrong on mine and it it should have been nearer 90bhp as per the P1s then my fly bhp would have been 285bhp. The other strange thing was that on my gauges it only showed a maximum of 1.0bar on the power run in 4th, I saw 1.2bar on the way home .

I was happy with the fact it wasnt detting has a nice power and torque curve and looked and sounded rock steady on the rollers, its overfuelling by 10% at top revs but hey "they all do that sir" . I could get it remapped and reduced to about 7% but I doubt I would notice much difference and only if I use max revs.

Might try it on a different set of rollers and compare the results.

Cheers

ChrisP

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Chrisp: Because of the way a rolling road operates you will not get as much boost as you do on the road unless you cheat and map only for the rollers which makes the car undrivable for the road.
If you do not mind me saying I feel there is something amiss with your transmission losses as I know my losses are typical for my car (on other rollers too)and similar to other cars of same make etc.

chrisp

Heres my graph

Adam M

The losses shown by chris are typical for a type r/ type ra drivetrain.

these are normally around 60/70 where as the normal centre diff and different 4th gear gives 80/90.

Have a look on the dyno site at previous rs and ras and you will see this is consistent.

I am assuming of course that chris' ra has the manual lock up centre diff and the slightly shorter gearing?

chrisp

It has the 19.5mph@1000 in 5th gearing but no diff controller. Its a very strange car has some goods bit but standard others i think they made it up on the fly as it one of the last of the classic. Looke like they vven run out of pedals so they stuck the ally MY01 pedal set on LOL.

harvey

iTrader: (48)

Chrisp: My car has longer than standard gearing with 3.9 diffs (front AND rear since August) in place of 4.44s so I would expect higher losses than yours but they are in line with other Scoobs.
Thanks for the graph but it is too faint to be much use.
Can you fax to me (01325 283294) and I will have a look or you can apply the formula BHP=Torque X rpm/5250. If it does not work out your location is subject to different laws of physics or there is an easier to find problem/explanation.!!!

chrisp

Havent got the graph here only the link but I can email you a better/enhanced copy tonight.

Cheers

ChrisP

NLW33

JUN made a car that had some 600 BHP. And from 2 litres!!!
Have a look at Mario's site is AUS: www.exvitermini.com
Big power GTRs in there as well as that scoob with a 200 MPH run I think.

Go to Videos, then various and scroll down until you see the white scooby.

Enjoy!!
Nick

chrisp

I cant get a good scan of the graph as it on thin computer paper. Done a few calculations and the graphs looks bang on.

Max torque is at 57mph, 233lb/ft @ 4230rpm

The power graph is just above the 180bhp marker

BHP = 233*4230/5250 = 187bhp

max power is at 90mph, 258.5bhp @ 6640rpm

The torque curve at 6600 looks just above the 200lb/ft marker

lb/ft = 258.5*5250/6640 = 204 lb/ft

Looks pretty much spot but they again once you have power at the wheels and transmission losses on run down the software takes over as its a simple calculation, but of course if one of the measured values is high or low then the calculated values will be inaccurate.



[Edited by chrisp - 10/31/2002 9:08:54 PM]

R19KET

I'm not certain if JUN have done a 600bhp 2.lt, but the car mentioned on their web site, is an EJ25 based engine.

Mark.

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

so it looks like harvey's car is the only impreza that has been PROVEN to produce over 400 bhp in the uk and is in everyday use.

what's your secret harvey???

and what's next???

tweenierob

Chrisp, put a blank piece of paper behind the copy you want to scan and it should be easier to scan.
Rob

Pavlo

sometimes the torque figures are not corrected, whereas the power ones are. However, the whole setup at WL left a lot to be desired in terms of repeatability and accuracy, but for £25 it was a good deal really. And I can't complain as they let David sort his car in time for nearly his actual slot.

Paul

chrisp

Done some tweaking does this look any better :


Heres my graph

NOS nova

pavlo, are you saying harvey's car didn't make 417bhp then or are you just jealous!!!

Adam M

why is it if you question a power figure you have to be jealous?

Personally I am not convinced by harveys power figure, but even if it is wrong, it isnt going to be that far out, so is highly commendable regardless.

I have memories of steve mcculloch making 360 at well lane then not being able to break 315 at pe on exactly the same set up and similar atmospheric conditions.

tweenierob

I need to go to Well Lane
Rob

jonny gav

iTrader: (1)

harvey's car ran a 424bhp first in front of a lot of members of the scooby community, his worst run of the day was 417bhp

over 50 bhp more than any of the other scoobs in attendance and there was a lot of good ones there too!

thats enough proof for me.

ChristianR

iTrader: (1)

cant wait till i get my car on the rollers - come on well lane 4!