LG John

Driver error probably did feature somewhere, I admit that. I'm just arguing the error was probably made before even setting out in the car and that is something all of us can avoid with routine checks.

Sorry EvilB I've had limited worktime net access and it's been difficult to monitor this thread. I've not tracked my car and I can't afford to. I know what it and I am capable of and having been on a track I know that I'd wind up cooking my brakes and tyres at great cost. Go slower you all say.....I wouldn't be able to resist on a track but I can on the road. Besides if I can get severe fad within minutes of pushing it on a road then what would happen on a track

Scooby-Doo

As I mentioned earlier there was a post a while ago regarding fueling problems after exiting right hand bends. I remember finding on STI's jap web site a swirl pot to cure the problem.

juan

You'd need pretty awesome reactions, a lot of similar experience, and probably a hefty portion of luck to correct at that speed once you lose it badly.

At the end of the day you were going too fast on a public road, yes public road, a road for everyone, not a personal race track, and as it turns out were driving very dangerously, regardless of whether you or the car were at fault.
Whats odd is that you still say you think you know enough but you're not gonna get a clearer indication that you don't without injuries or deaths. If a car appeared coming in the other direction minding their own business you could have killed people.

If you can respond to this saying that you think you weren't driving dangerously and endangering lives then I'm flabbergasted.

Nothing personal, no offence meant etc.

Just do it on a track for your own sake. It would be awful to go through life if the worst had happened to someone else and it was purely your fault.
That must be reason enough to keep it somewhat sane on the public roads.

edit:
just seen the latest. you say the car has never felt that settled and you can't afford to get it checked, yet you are still willing to risk yours and others lives to rag it round corners, and claim to not have anything new to learn. I beg to differ on that point alone.

sorry I know this sounds like a lecture from a pompous ****. well I guess it is :-|


[Edited by juan - 11/4/2002 6:02:36 PM]

Amanda-Jane

That sounds oh so familiar Michelle! It's funny how I keep saying I have slowed down since Steven was born but I have only been caugh for speeidn twice! Once just after I passed my test and the second was 2.5 years ago! They were both for pretty high speeds and I do regret what I did with Steven in the car. I really think I didn't get banned was due to the copper being very nice and understanding.

We have discussed about Kenny going on track but I will leave that to Kenny to answer

Time for a certain young monsters bath now!

I really need to send you an email Chelle to catch up! Promise I'll do that later when Steven is in bed!

Amanda

ripmaze

How long does fuel starvation last? I'd have thought it would last until you lost grip (g-forces would suddenly reduce when it's sliding?) Wouldn't you then be able to get fuel back in pretty quick - i.e. quick enough to be able to get back on the power and try to pull the front wheels round? I've not experienced it so am interested to learn.

7 Foot

As everyone else I too am pleased to hear no physical damage was done, to man or machine.

I knew, previous to this thread, how old you were Saxo (only a year younger than me). Always been impressed by your knowledge and enthusiasm for your car and all things Scooby.

Got to say this in this instance I do disagree with a few things.

Firstly, if your car has never felt that settled then surely making it go faster should not be very high up the priority list. Maybe the money spent with Mr Banks on your TEK2.5 should have been aimed elsewhere.

I have no idea how good a driver you are but I don't believe that driver training would release some inner demon that would be a hazard to all other drivers, pedestrians, land speed records. Can only make you safer and more responsible in my book. Xmas pressie maybe.

With regard to the starvation issue. Felt it twice the other day exiting a couple of large roundabouts (MY00 UK a little low on juice). Had no idea what it was, didn't like it - am pleased to find out the cause of it. Ta very much.

Little Miss WRX

Catch me on MSN if you want

Amanda-Jane

d'oh! forgot about that!

MGJohn

Saxo Boy...

No flames intended here but, from what you say, unless the road conditions were poor, I doubt that the tyres were to blame. Basically, sounds like a simple case of rear end drift catching you out. Although it may or may not have played a part with your recent experience, low fuel leading to possible fuel supply problems is a REAL danger in any car! Not just round the twiddly bits either.

Many years ago, I timed my run to overtake a more powerful car in front at a speed considered illegal now (not then) and as I dropped a gear and floored it ... there was much mis-firing and NO acceleration at that critical time. Meantime I've moved to the outside lane of a three lane non-dual carriageway with vehicles fast approaching. I anchored up heavily and tucked in safely behind the car I tried to overtake but I learned a severe lesson that day. Low fuel can equal no go! The road was a steep incline and this combined with low fuel must have moved the remaining fuel (usually of sufficient level) away from the pump thus giving partial starvation at that critical moment. Slowing to a still fast but even speed, all returned to normal. A little later with NO vehicles about, I repeated my overtaking flyer and yes, it happened again. Filling the fuel tank I tried to reproduce that "no go" scenario but could not as all was now well.

Keep an eye on those fuel levels if you like to put your foot down .... occasionally .. like you do ...

Finally, not easy I know but, if you are able to positively identify what circumstaces actually were responsible for your experience, please let us know ... that way we can all learn from your (and our own) mistakes even if in the final analysis, you were the only real cause ...

Safety Fast MotorinG

LG John

Exactly, and my anylsis of the way the car had been driving for the previous 20 minutes, the road surface and my knowledge of the road all suggested everything was fine. When the car went, it went quick and I was acutally amazed I managed to get the opposite lock in. The point of my post was that I needed power thereafter to recover it and apparently didn't have it...hence fuel starvation theory.

I've never had it during the corner before, always after but it last till you back off and I'd imagine during the corner it wouldn't be sorted until the lateral forces dropped and the car could pick up fuel again.

I said the car never felt settled and as a result I've not pushed it as hard as I'd like in the past. It never felt dangrous though!!

Now on to a new debate....why was I pushing it: Well, it was a road I knew well and it was clear of other traffic. Yes I was going fast but not as fast as the road can be taken, I've fired down it much quicker in the lowly VTS. You all say don't drive fast on public roads, ever. I'm sorry but 90% of you are being hipocritical as hell with that and you know it. If not, please justify why you have a car that costs loads to service and gets 20mpg if you never push it on the public road???!!! Don't give me, the ;only on the track; crap, either cause if thats all you got the car for why didn't you get an elise or westfield?? If this had been during a busy time and someone else had been involved then you'd maybe have an arguement but I bought the Impreza cause its fast and I'm sorry if that means sometimes I'll go out and enjoy the twisties.

For the record....every...as in, without fail......EVERY scoobynetter I've been driven by has exceeded the limit during my drive with them (obviously be varying degrees). Pleased to say I felt safe with them all but I'm making the point we all push it on the public road at some point and I chose to push it at the correct time.....i.e. when I was on my own.

Sorry if I'm getting a little crusty but I know some of you lot are being really hypocritical

7 Foot

I drive too fast!
Not always but I do do it.

Don't get 'crusty' Saxo, it was a very brave move posting this and not all replies were going to be pretty!!

Deep breath mate!

Brun

**** happens.
Saxo, you played the game and got away with out paying the price.
I am a true believer that if you didn't have these little mishaps from time to time you would begin to feel invincible, and one day it really would end up with someone getting hurt.

Robertio

iTrader: (1)

Kenny, I wont say I told you so about the cornering compared to a Saxo VT*, ultimately if the scoob is completely balanced it may carry very slightly more speed through that sort of corner, but only very slightly.
Not picking on you here, but try to get yourself on a course with Don Palmer or similar, you will learn a lot about the car. At Bruntingthorpe with him I found out just how easy it is to completely unsettle a scoob if you switch direction (ie left hand bend into a right hand bend) at speed. You have to remember the car weighs a lot more than you last car did, and as such unbalances a lot easier. I found it a very valuable lesson: going backwards at 90mph is not something I'm likely to ever forget. Ultimately I drove slower after the course than I did before, as it was only then that I realised how easy it was to lose it.

On a side note, I'd have to agree that (almost - only Crypt and Crush spring to mind as exceptions at the moment) everyone on this board I have met does have a tendency to travel very quickly at times.

The main thing is that you learn from what has happened.

RichardPON

Saxoboy,

I really don't want to put you down about this, but it's really got me annoyed.

What a load of cr@p! Your car is massively servo'd, and by left foot braking through a series of bends, where you'd be using the clutch most of the time, properly left foot braking the car would spin it out at any decent speed. Try driving a car with brake bias and a pedal box, and you'll see the real effect of LFB in a car to UNSETTLE the back end intentionally to combat understeer.

I don't mean to sound patronising, but you just sound really out of your depth. Over confidence is the sign of a bad driver, not a good one. Trust me, you want to let a professional drive your car round a circuit and show you that you'll be lucky if you're using any more than 70% of the car's ability.

IMO, the first sign of a good driver is one who knows and is aware that he is lacking in skill behind the wheel of a car, and doesn't preach that he's aware of the limits, when clearly he's not.

I've been out on a spirited drive through Wales with a rally driver, and it showed me how little I knew. To read the road at the speed we were travelling is an impressive skill, and to have near total car control is something I strive to acheive. The first thing I was taught about driving at speed is always to expect the unexpected, and to always have an escape route. That sticks, and I can apply that to everyday driving as well.

My advice, as a lot have said, is to get out on a track day, or as we do whenever we shake down a car or test a new one - get some mates together and hire out Bruntingthorpe. It's not expensive when the cost is split, and you can rag the car to your heart's delight..... and really find the limits without endangering anyone but yourself.

Brave of you to post this, and refreshing too as it sparks good debate, but have a little more skill in passing the blame

CLSII

I've been a member of Scoobynet one way and another for two years now.When I joined originally I think that most people would have been honest enough to accept your heartfelt posting for what it is.

Recently there seem to be an increasing number of members who are horrified to even consider anyone might slightly exceed the speed limits on national speed limit roads (only a fool exceeds them more than a little on restricted roads) or pushes the car ever so much around a bend in the road.

I must say though I when all you are trying to do is pass on your experience of this situation you found your self in it seems a shame that there are so many willing to go into lecture mode.

I'll get my coat cos it's probably my turn for a flaming now

prodriva

Just read the first and last page of this thread (too much red wine to read all pages) but MY theory of what may have caused the MOMENT is as follows;

I believe that it was not fuel starvation that caused the lack of power. It is more likely that OIL surge caused by (possibly) low oil level, to cause the ECU to switch to limp home mode therefore no power at critical moment. One of the first things that experinced track bods upgrade is baffling the sump.

Furthermore if the MOMENT happened mid corner and your tyres where worn on the inside edge surely the tyres point with the most amount of force being applied would be through the centre and outer-edges (ie tyre flex). Therefore IMO tyres where not a part of this.

Whatever the actual cause of this was, you are one lucky boy. LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES and all that cos thats what makes you a better person IMO.

Have fun and BE SAFE cos you dont know whats round that corner!!!

juan

aye you can't have expected too much positive feedback though.

Sure I've exceeded the limit here and there but like Little Miss WRX and hopefully many others I've calmed down a lot and hopefully don't endanger folks now. I was a dangerous driver for my first year or two and thinking back t some of those things just makes my blood run cold now.
What I never did though was claim to know my limits and the car's limits straight after completely losing it and somehow trying to say (a) I wasn't driving dangerously and (b) it wasn't my fault.
(actually I've never completely lost it - not because I'm super cool or anything but probably because I have a lower level of bottle, more luck, or a higher level of safety or some such reason).

My parents however have been smashed into at over 80 mph by a jerk on the wrong side of the road round a corner. Luckily my old man just had enough time to try and throw his car off the side of the road and our out of control friend really did rip the entire side off their car. another 5 inches further over and it would have been head on lights out no chance whatsoever.

You might think this is why I preach but actually its not.
I have just become much more safety conscious over the last 10 years or so. While I drive I often find myself thinking 'what if x happened now or what if y was just round that corner' etc. Its something I never did when I was younger (I'm 33 now) and you might think 'well thats a really boring approach', though I'd actually say its good driving, and helps to keep you concentrating. I hope I'm actually ready for those things to happen and am actually doing a speed or taking a line that gives me an honestly realistic chance of avoiding these things.

Works for me.

dsmith

The sobering bit (or when your realise your are getting old ) is when you start thinking "what if it was me coming the other way ?"

Deano

Little Miss WRX

Aye, that thought goes through my mind, or it might be a member of my family.........kicks you right up the ****.

If it doesn't, IMHO you should not be on the road.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Just my "comments" & thats all they are...

1) Lift off oversteer

2) I've never had a "moment" on track due to fuel starvation, although I've had fuel starvation it just means you bog down, not slide.

Alas

SB
Only time I've lost it so far was lift off oversteer also. Not helped by shower of rain after a long dry spell. Like yourself I was lucky that no one else was coming or I would have been responsible for maybe killing someone. The speed I was doing was 60mph. But I thought the car could make it easy. The car probably could but I was'nt up to it. Must admit I've slowed down a lot since then as I know I could'nt sleep at night if I had.
Well done for posting what happened as a few people (myself included) have maybe had a rethink on their own driving.
That day was totally my fault as you said your own was. Forget looking for reasons other than driver error as that is the no 1.
At the end of the day could any of us handle killing someone eg a child just because we wanted a bit of fun.
Sorry to preach but serious subject.
Alasdair

Dave_A

Not wishing to preach or flame anyone, but I do feel that the public road is not the place to try out new high speed driving techniques, regardless of how quiet the road is. Fast driving (above the speed limit in national limit areas) within reason I can understand, but trying out left-foot braking at high speeds is not a good idea. I think some things are best left to the track to experiment with, where the only thing you can harm is the grass.

Saxo-Boy, you must have been born under a lucky star not to have done some damage to someone or something, and the fact that you have been thinking about what happended shows that you have learnt from the experience. Now is the time to reflect on what might have been.

Heel-and-toeing is a useful road technique that isn't just used when driving quickly, and is certainly not as dangerous as left-foot braking.

Anyways, at least no one was hurt, this time....

Amanda-Jane

So is most folk on here saying they have never driven quickly on a road that they know well? I do find this so hard to believe.

There are some people admitting that they have made mistakes and that has made them rethink about their driving techniques. I for one admit I have made mistakes and I have also had a few close ones.

I did tell Kenny not to bother posting on here because of the amount of self-righteous do gooders on here as I knew that this is how some of you would react. For those of you who say you have never had a close one, I really think it is you guys that need to have a long, hard think about your own driving before commenting on somebody else.

<rant over and flame suit is well and truly on now>

Amanda

Scotsman

iTrader: (3)

I don't think anyone is being two-faced. There is a BIG difference between driving fast/breaking the speed limit and driving without due care and concern for other road users.

But then I do get on average 28 mpg so perhaps I'm either old before my time or just seen a few too many accidents on the roads.

Richard.

dsmith

[qoute]Aye, that thought goes through my mind, or it might be a member of my family.........kicks you right up the ****.[/quote]

I was coming more from the angle of "I'm near the limit and using just a little bit more road than I should" the suddenly someone esle is coming the other way at high speed, near the limit, using a bit more road than they should. All of a sudden, you're just a passenger.

Deano

Little Miss WRX

Don't worry, that is exactly the angle I was working from Deano.

And what if that person was your partner? Your kid (over 17 year old kid or the little ****** is joy riding )? Your mum or dad?

That is what I mean by it gives you a kick up the **** - one hopefully hard enough to make sure oyu don't just use a little bit too much road and you can have room to manouvere in case you have to.

Is that a bit clearer?

Little Miss WRX

Actually - having said that - if that was my mum or dad coming round the other way using too much of the other side of the road, I would get out and have words with them.

They shouldn't be driving like that at their age

LG John

Scotsman, full decat and TEK 2.5 with dawes - hence almost impossible to keep off boost.....usually between 250-300 miles from a tank. Check the economy threads and you'll see I've got less of a lead foot than most peeps on here

Thought that through and through, believe me!

I've done some really stupid things when I was a lad and often wonder what could have been. The difference this time is that I really wasn't pushing it too far or that hard and the scooby is usually able to take that corner far faster. Its just that something went wrong. Can some one explain more about the oil surge thing?

I'd like to stress I was not playing around with left-foot braking that day and haven't for quite sometime after I concluded it really is something for the track.

As for those that think I don't know the limits of the scooby you are quite wrong. There is a massive roundabout in Edinburgh that is vastly underused and at night it is devoid of all traffic (serves a shopping outlet) When I got the scooby I spend a fair bit of time building up speed round it, experimenting with lift-off, braking whilst cornering, fast direction changes, etc. Believe me I know exactly when the car is going to let go, even at higher speeds!! For those fools that think the scooby isn't as adjustable and catchable as a VTS you clearly don't know the cars limits. This is a car that can very easily (when on the edge of grip) be balanced between understreer, neutral cornering and oversteer with only very slight changes in the throttle positon. In fact I'm disgusted by the amount of myths about the scooby I've shattered in my short ownership of the vehicle....I believe there are a number of peeps on here that really are in the dark about what Subaru have built for you.

I still can't and probably never will be able to push it to its full abilities and I certainly don't use the 4WD advantage like I've seen it used by others but at least I don't chuck it around thinking 'its ok, its got 4WD, I'll be fine!' I try to keep it balanced and composed and the reason I've been so stressed about what happened is cause it suddenly lost that balance without warning and it nearly lead to a big accident....I've just been trying to figure out why.

IMO 90% of progressive driving is physics and believe me I know my physics regarding the way the car will handle and respond - always amazes me the amount of people that don't actually know what causes lift off-oversteer

RichardPON

So because you're so sure of your abilities, then it MUST be the car that went wrong then?

LG John

No, no, but it certainly snapped out way too quick for my car and didn't respond well to my corrections. Unfortunatly there is the blurry bit that I don't remember too well where driver error probably did feature but I find it unlikely my reations would have been anything other than to go for the gas once the opposite lock was dialled in.

RichardPON I'm sorry to have to say this but your posts really get to me!! I've got countless 'fav threads' where you feature spouting a lot of crap and pointing the finger of blame but you never admit to being wrong yourself...have a think about it please