DocJock

PTMW! said.....

>>Just my "comments" & thats all they are...

1) Lift off oversteer

2) I've never had a "moment" on track due to fuel starvation, although I've had fuel starvation it just means you bog down, not slide.


Absolutely spot on mate.

EvilBevel

Yup, it's all RichardPON's fault.

LG John

Confused by that post from puff:

I didn't lift off, hand no reason to as the front end was holding well.

When I've had fuel starvation in a straightline after a corner its akin to stabbing the brakes quite hard. I'm very sure that if it occured like that mid-corner it would be more than enough to induce the lift-off effect, actually more like braking mid-bend!

Andy.F

Kenny,
Just remembered I spilled some diesel out the van round that corner ... Joking obviously but have you considered there may have been something spilled there ?? Quarry corner (1st l/h from Gullane) is infamous for this with the lorrys puking diesel, that corner is the next tight left coming from NB

ps what if I'd been coming the other way

LG John

Not saying it was richards fault it just that he is very quick to judge, form and opinion and write it up on scoobynet.

For example he said in a thread of mines from ages back that a 306GTI would destroy a VTS in a straight line and would not listed to arguement or reason in any way. Finally, after my car posted an identical 1/4 mile time he admitted that it was 'quick' but still couldn't say it was as fast as the pug despite the proof in front of him.

LG John

Now that would have been scary!!

I checked the road on the way back and it was clear with no damp patches. For the record it was the first hard right after aberlady (approximatly half way round the corner the car park will be directly behind you)

Amanda-Jane

Is that the one where the windsurfers were?

Amanda x

Andy.F

I'd worked that out thats why it's a left then, coming the other way

EvilBevel

FFS Kenny.

Your post was honest.

Now please take a breath and consider posts like Fatboys or Puff's. Let it rest for a while, reread, and learn from it.

Saying Don Palmer is about LFB on public roads is just... erm... not on.

LOOS is the n°1 reason for hedge hogging in an Impreza BTW.

Andy.F

No, it's birdwatchers at that one

Amanda-Jane

Thanks Andy

Amanda

Andy.F

Very similar corner though AJ

In defence of Kenny, the corner referred to really is one of those 'classics' high grip surface, wide, banked, fast and on a quiet B road.
It really 'asks for it' Even an old experienced track man such as I, can't resist
Bikers come from miles around to get the knee down on this one !

RichardPON

Saxoboy,

Listen mate, not once have I wished anything bad upon you, and I have made a point of saying I'm glad you didn't crash etc and that you weren't hurt.

I find some of your posts quite entertaining, but with all due respect, this was a post aout your near misses and not mine. Sure, I'm not gonna sit here and say I am a perfect driver (wouldn't want to catch that scoobynet illness ) - far from it in fact. I've had plenty of near misses back in the day, and a couple of crashes to my name, which were very avoidable and very stupid. I also enjoy having my fun as much as the next man, and of course I have to say it's all in the right places, although truth be told, I've probably been very silly in some very silly places - so yes, point taken.... I have no qualms about enjoying my car on the roads at times.

The reason I get so irritated by this stuff is because my best friend was involved in one of the most serious accidents I've ever seen. She was with her family in their Mondeo travelling round the M25 and was involved in a 15 car pile up. I was following some ten minutes behind, and actualy had to drive through the wreckage, seeing a woman hanging dead out of her car. My friend is now almost fully recovered, although her mum was off work for 2 years and confined to her bed on and off for 9 months. I drove through the scene of that accident moments after it had happened, and had to pull straight off the road because I couldn't drive anymore - that was the single worst moment of my entire life.

That , however, is slightly beside the point - that made ME it up and take notice. I'm not saying you've taken your near miss lightly, because it's obvious you've taken it on board, but I can't believe you could post this and then try and deflect the blame!

You are an inexperienced driver. FACT. No matter how quick you THINK you are, you're not that quick. The trip to the Nurburgring taught me that last year. You say all this stuff about keeping driving techniques and trying new stuff to the racetrack, yet openly admit you've never done a track day!

Look, at the end of the day I couldn't give a flying **** what you think of me or whether my posts irritate you or not. I'm just fully aware of when someone's trying to dig themselves out of a hole, because they've been bloody stupid. And with all due respect, you're telling me I'm the one spouting cack? This coming from the person who thinks they know the limits of their scooby because they practise round a disused roundabout?

I'm not gonna turn this post into a tirade of abuse, because it'll get the post locked, and it's probably quite important that people get to read this...Sure, we've had arguments (mostly entertaining ) about the old Saxo/172/GTi6 debate in the past, but that's only banter. This is a little more of serious topic, wouldn't you agree? Like I've said before, you weren't hurt, you didn't ding your car, and I'd have bought that lottery ticket

Turkish1

I can see you are getting a lot of stick about this, but you have to take this in a positive way and I can see you realise how lucky you are, take care mate.
p.s. youve got some ***** posting it up and taking all the flack from everyone.

Turkish1

Eagle7

Chelle, would appreciate it if you can recommend some good places to take courses. I dont mind travelling a bit, may even get some of the devon and cornwall boys to come too!

Little Miss WRX

Hey, gimme a chance!!! I need to consult with the Oracle (mother ) for details of the ones I did as she booked them for me I am also notorious for being a tad slow when it comes to retrieving information and if I start being quick now, then people will expect it all the time

A good one which is recommended by a few is the Drive and Survive based I think in Worcester - I will find out details of that for you

Cheers,

Michelle

Stu-exScoobOwner

SaxoBoy:

".....why was I pushing it: Well, it was a road I knew well and it was clear of other traffic. Yes I was going fast but not as fast as the road can be taken, I've fired down it much quicker in the lowly VTS...."

"...the reason I've been so stressed about what happened is cause it suddenly lost that balance without warning and it nearly lead to a big accident....I've just been trying to figure out why...."

I've been lurking on the bbs for a while now and haven't posted however your post has brought me out of the shadows!

Firstly, I admire your candidness in posting your experience.

Secondly, a word of warning - I too used to think the same way as you and express the same thoughts about the car, how well I knew the road and the cars limits etc etc.....

Then I had a massive accident.

It was in late '93 and I was driving a Scirocco GTI.

Cut a long story short - I was lucky to get out alive after I rolled it twice. I too couldn't believe that it was my fault (the accident happened at circa 70mph)and almost to this day believe something went in the suspension.

Whatever you think, control is an illusion. No one knows what's going to happen next......especially on the road, in a car or even walking down the stairs. Anyhthing can be round the corner - sheep, a herd of cows, a tractor, another car crashed - blocking the road, and you need to learn that you cannot legislate for these things.

You are clearly a competent driver - all I am urging you to do is get over the denial you are in (ie: it can;t possibly be my fault) and register the fact that something YOU DID NOT EXPECT TO HAPPEN.......did, in fact happen.

Work it out.....

.....and take it into consideration for every corner you drive round in the future.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

Little Miss WRX

Nicely put

snarly

firstly, lucky to make out of that one saxoboy.
secondly the contributing factor to the spin must be driver error. if you had inspected the car(tyres) before going for a thrash this would not have happened as you would not have put you or any other road users at risk.
on a positive note you might consider it next time!

Fat Boy

Extract from Don Palmer's Creative Car Control website ( no commercial connection just a very impressed customer)

"Creative Car Control Courses

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<<F40 travelling completely sideways around a very long bend at about 90mph in the wet>> (cant be effed to do turbosport nonsense)

Photograph Steve Byford
You cannot be serious!
Are you honestly telling me I can learn to do that in two hours?
Yes.

The majority of our clients learn to powerslide their car with only two hours of expert coaching.

Many take far less.

<< some other car travelling sideways in control>>

Photograph Driving Development
What specifically will I learn on your car control courses?
You will learn to recognise The Limit.

Many drivers see The Limit as a precipice. A deep crevasse shrouded in thick fog, never to be approached, lest they be drawn in and lost.

At Driving Development, we will teach you how to recognise that you are approaching The Limit.

We will show you the signposts on the road to the edge.

We will teach you how to see the precipice, tiptoe up to the edge, and step back.

A little later, you will recognise that what looked like a precipice was in fact only a gentle slope, and that it can be great fun dangling your feet

Who are your typical clients?
There is no such thing as a typical client. A passion for driving seems to be something that spans all ages, backgrounds and walks of life. The only other common denominators are a desire to improve their skills behind the wheel and the will to invest a little time doing so.

Why do they come to you?
People come to improve and learn, but also to have fun.

At Driving Development our skill is in determining the best and quickest way to achieve a specific improvement for each individual. One client may simply wish to feel more confident at speed. Another might have been involved in an accident where they lost control of the vehicle. Some are racing drivers looking to find that elusive “tenth tenth” in order to crush the competition.
Though each comes to us with a different desire, we aim to bring out the best in all of them.

<< yet another car somwhere beyond most people's limits>>


Photograph Driving Development

What makes your course so good?
Many courses offer high quality instruction.

Driving Development offers high quality coaching.

Instruction is simply telling people what to do.

Coaching is helping people to discover the answers for themselves. Through being coached, the client has created performance improvements himself; he “owns” the change, which becomes integrated into his driving.

You can tell a horse to drink a thousand times, but all you really need to do is help him realise he’s thirsty.

Does that make any sense at all? We hope so…

Foot-dangling: Driving Development style
<< more ludicrous photos>>

Photograph Pat Rochford

Is it safe?
Yes.

Bruntingthorpe Proving Ground is an extremely safe venue with masses of space available to make mistakes without serious consequences. You can drive around our handling course secure in the knowledge that even if you suffer a complete case of brain fade and /or over enthusiasm, the only thing you are likely to injure is your Ego.

Will it be fun?
Is a frog’s bottom watertight? - Just have another look at the pictures.



Creative car control courses tailored for the individual by appointment.

Please call 01628 784911 to discuss your requirements.

Accommodation near to Bruntingthorpe"

All done in your car, you won't **** your brakes, but wait until your tyres are nearing their end of life ie 2-3 mm they'll be perfect, you can still drive home on them and even if you are unlucky enough to get a puncture, Mark/ Chizzer on SN at the ever excellent Tyres Northampton is only 20mins away for a nice new tyre or a nice old one like the one that just went bang

You do this in your car, not some shagged 13 yr old fiesta as at most "schools", and then, just when you think you have got it Don will hop into your car, which he has not driven up until that point, and blow you away. This is when you start learning.One of these courses makes ONE realise how little ONE knows and far from making you speed up on the road makes you realise sometimes that you are already at the limit for the conditions.Don't take it as an attack, big up for posting one of the most thought provoking and important threads for ages, oh and BTW my middle name is Dwayne.

john banks

Kenny, glad you are OK.

Also sounds like you were overdoing it on the public road IMHO. Sliding a car about at speed is not safe and not controllable - by its very nature it is over the limit, and leaves no margin for safety. Save it for the track.

I also think that on the road a modded Impreza is an absolute ba**ard anywhere near the limit. Mine snaps very hard and quick like a mad thing and I have massive respect for it. The tail does not need much provocation at all in the wet in anything below 4th gear. There is plenty of power to get yourself into incredible trouble very quickly indeed.

With the standard turbo it is far more benign, but has some unwelcome handling traits IMHO.

Fat Boy

My final post on the subject( as I'm sure you're all heartily sick of all this cr4p from me ) - just found this post in Trackdays from his Holiness the Webmaster, alias Simon D-B :

"I have absolutely no affiliation with Don, but I can vouch 100% for his coaching abilities.

Being able to coach people to excellence has very little to do with the coaches actual ability in the subject.

A world class coach can coach someone in subjects that they know absolutely nothing about (genuinely).

But to add to his coaching ability, Don is actually a pretty handy driver. He'll never be world champion, but he's no slouch. This just adds to his ability to coach car control.

Colin McRae would obviously kick his but in pretty much any discipline, but if I wanted to improve my driving through coaching, I would rather have an hour with Don than a day with Colin.

All the best

Simon"

Don Palmer better than McCrash shocker

Annoyingly it's a bit of a love in between these two, as, after my day with Don, he suggested I pester Simon to go out with him on the next trackday to explore the far outer limits of a scoob. Still haven't managed it but hopefully will do soon.

FB over and out

LG John

Thats been the point of the whole thread!

I'm suprised at the peeps that do not believe you can truely explore the cars limit on the open road and must go to the track. Sorry but not everyone has someone that can chuck them a car for weekend to go nutts in. Moreover, it's not hard at all to get any car to its limits on the public roads - granted not always safely! I'm not impressed by the people that seem to think I'd suddenly find new limits in the car by taking it to track....Not likely, I've 'tiptoed' up to those limits a number of times and then climbed back down. Frankly I'd rather spend the money I'd spend wrecking tyres and brakes on a track going on some of these advanced courses which clearly would be of benefit to anyone.

RichardPON, ok, I was a little harsh on you and I'm sorry but I still disagree with the inexperienced driver bit. I think 6-7 years without points or a nasty is a pretty good record and more so given that at points my driving has been 'enthusiastic'.

I didn't post this to get a roasting but rather to point out that despite knowing where my car usually lets go, on this occassion it let go far earlier and without the usual warning. The point of telling you that was to ensure when some of your lot are enjoying your favourite twisty home you don't think, 'I took this corner at 60mph last night in the same conditions so I'll be ok at 60mph today'

Sorry to hear about the people that have been in or experienced a nasty accident but this can happen to any of us and anytime and we need to be aware of that....I certainly am and that is why many people have commented on how reserved my driving is.

Thanks for your words of support Andy

LG John

That really wasn't the plan John!! You of all peeps should know how uncomfortable I am pressing on on roads I don't know in conditions I'm unsure about!

For clarity I'm not having a go John just stressing that I wasn't trying to get her moving around, I'm fact at the time I was working on smoothness.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Kenny,
you got away with it this time so count yourself lucky but i cannot really critise you along with 99.9% of the people on here because at one time or another we too have pushed our cars to a point where it becomes a little nervy should we say
What went wrong? well the unpredictability of the road went wrong, it could have been a patch of diesel or the likes and you were sliding the car which isnt really being in control of it IMHO.
Roads are not the safest places to do "fast progression" even if they are large lanes but just remember it only takes a slightly higher curb, a rut in the road, a bit of oil where some cars leaking all over the place to put your car off into a ditch or the likes
Drive a little slower next time

Tony

LG John

Crap, people that go nuts on the track cause great danger! I witnessed this at the subaru spectacular!! I seldom push it on the roads and when I do its usual roads I know, when its quite, etc....but yes you're all right you can't account for every eventuality so I ask this....why bother with an impreza if your never going to take a risk every now and again and have a spirited drive. Sorry, but everytime us Impreza (or any performance car drivers) decide to have a bit of fun and drive outwith 'a-b' mode we are taking a risk.

I've not taking my car on a track but I've been round knockhill and found that the scooby was doing nothing I haven't seen it do before. In fact, putting the scooby on the track IMO reveals just how hopelessly outclassed it is on that type of road (by elises, etc) and further stresses to me why it should be used on tight, rough b-roads where IMO it comes into its own.

LG John

I do, very lucky!!!

Finally someone admits it

The road was fine I went back and checked and more so, I always scan the road ahead for such dangers. Again I'd like to stress I wasn't sliding the car, I was aiming for smooth (but quick) progress. The slide happened but unfortunatly could not be controlled (by me anyway!).

Little Miss WRX

People who go on track know the dangers - else they wouldn't be there!!!

People driving on the road do not expect an out of control Impreza to come flying at them in an extreme scenario.

You cannot judge and take into account accurately all things that are going on whilst travelling at speed on a road.
I have slid on diesel which is deceptive when it is wet and dark conditions on a road.

Luck is what a lot of it will boil down to, but eventually luck will run out. I am not having a go, but I don't seem to be able to get my point across to you.


I can't see how you are saying "finally someone admits it" when I have two pages back told you I used to drive on the limits of my own driving and my car's handling

Little Miss WRX

Anyhow, I am shattered and need some rest.

I just hope you starte easing off the right pedal a bit and that a future incident doesn't happen, I would certainly hate to hear of anything happening to you. I am not trying to be an alarmist, that is my genuine feelings

Cheers and good night

Michelle.

SCOSaltire

SB
Sounds like ur losing the plot...

I hope that, if u continue with this attitude for wreckless racing on the roads, i am not in the vicinity when u DO have an accident.

You seem to be in a zone of denial... and lots of people are seeing this and commenting on it.

Read it. Take it in.

If you KILL someone..... you could do that.....

A cyclist going at 30 mph.. and u spun into him... dead...
What part of the car will u attempt to blame when it was CLEARLY down to u being an **** and going too far.

On track theres no oncoming traffic or trees etc
Everyone is alert - looking for touble.
People are there to help should something go wrong.
No car stopped, with the occupants looking at deer, and the car directly in ur line with no warning...

We all play a bit on roads. But thats it --- play abit.

Sounds to me like your getting a bit extreme.

"Down to 3rd"
Speed isnt the issue here... its the wreckless unbalancing of the car - and the consequences of it going wrong.

Get it sorted m8