LG John

I WASN'T going too far. I could take the corner 10mph fast in the wet in a bus FFS!!!!!!! I'm just trying to make the point that none of us can overlook the fact that our cars might let go for some unknown reason at any time!!! Even when were not driving fast!!!

This is like hitting my head of a brick wall and the only comfort I take from it is that my friends know how deeply this has affected me and how I've thought about it and my errors over and over and over again. Shame this post hasn't prompted some of you lot to think twice as well. But why would you do that, its sooooo much easier just to get one someone elses back than to examine your own shortcommings (if any, since some of you are clearly invincible)

Phil don't want to fall out (respect you a lot) but you were leading the day a scoobynetter lost it trying to keep up with you....have you though about that!! Remember at one point he was heading towards the trees down a steep embankment!! Oh and lets not forget I was driving a FWD VTS in the wet and kept up ok that day without sliding around so I can't be all that bad and wreckless.

LG John

Dang, knew someone would spot that diablo!!! The corner prior to the right hander is a sweeping left where I could see the road was clear and I could (if neccessary) use both lanes. For this reason I let her slide about (fun factor) but by the time I'd reached the right hander the car was nicely settled again and given I couldn't see round that corner I was aiming for smoother progress and tee her up accordingly.

Fine, all blame Saxo, that's why I get daily emails from people that have actually driven with me asking me to slow down and saying how they feel scared for their lives

Power oversteer in the dry in a UK turbo!!! This would not be possible IMO unless you used some form of lift off (or other technique) to unsettle the back end in the first place...believe me I've tried

Diablo

But you were

or what bit of "Thrashing" and "down to third" did I misinterpret...LOL

Mate, sh$t happens, Deal with it and move on.

D

marty_t3

I totally disagree. Not for the sake of flaming but to hopefully help you understand something. Your experience, much like my own, is mainly from commuting (with enthusiasm). There is a big difference between that and being experienced at controlling an upset/unbalanced car at high speed.

You just spun your car on a dry open road. YOU CRASHED!! Granted, you did it where it was relatively safe and not a danger to anyone but yourself. No matter, you still lost it!

I (and i'm sure most folk here) can't critisize enthusiastic driving but i don't believe anyone else in the same situation would say it was partly the cars fault and then claim to be a good driver. Thousands of people used that road that day but i'll bet you were the only one to crash. To me that says that the thousands of others who used the road that day were better drivers than you.

If you want to bring the issue of speed into the discussion then you will have to come to terms with the fact that you are not a racing driver and the road is not a racetrack. Until you get plenty of track hours and some proper tuition under your belt you will never be a race driver.

People learn from their mistakes... you've just made one. Don't fool yourself into thinking it was minor driver error brought on by a bad car setup. Your mistake was your overconfidence.

Like I said before, I'm glad you and the car made it through unscathed but if you keep thinking you're a good driver then you're just heading for another crash...next time you might not be so lucky. Last thing anyone here wants to see is your car stacked in a field on it's roof. If you want to drive on the limits then do it where it's safe - on a track.

Marty.

jasey

SaxoBoy

I fear you will die young

LG John

'young' 'inexperienced' 'bad driver' and so on and so on.....listen to yourselves. I'm 24 for crying out loud its not like I'm 18 and nashing around in a P1 like I own the world!! There are a lot of younger drivers on this site with scoobs and even more powerful cars and even older ones too that will have lost it but didn't have the guts to stick their hands in the air and say so. I was just trying to get the point accross that I was driving well within my usual limits and the usual limits of the car but that something I could not anticipate happened and it all went wrong...I thought it was a worthwhile message to put accross and I'll be sure and mention it again next time we have a thread about a netter whos in a box because they lost it

Sipie, you were right and I was wrong - I shouldn't have bothered.....guess I owe you a pint.

I also find it a very elitist attitude that the only way anyone can be a good and safe driver is to have hours of track experience and tuition!! So I'm guessing that Pele and Maradona (not that I'm likening my driving to their football skills before you all start) had f-all until they were plucked from there shanty towns and taught how to play 'proper' football I'll bet there are scooby owners that haven't had any fancy training and track days that could run rings round the John Felsteads (sp?) of this world if put on a track. (no offense JF but your regarded as one of the best scoobynet drivers)

Oh, and I like the way its assumed because of my age I've never done advanced driving

It's been a real eye opener guys.

Well I'm unlikely to stack the car today people given that I'm car sharing today, oh, and given that I spend 90% of my time driving down the bypass at far lower speeds than you lot who struggle to return more than 200 miles from a tank. So I'm guessing your getting 20mpg or less on the track all the time....or are you just screaming past schools at 60mph hoping for a glance when your dump valve unloads in front of the school girls......sad, sad, sad!! (disclaimer: I'm generalising a bit, I know some of you get great mpg for a scooby, don't have dump valves, etc)

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

SB

It's a tough lesson to learn and you were brave to come on here and air your mistake.

In my teens I've had a few knocks and I denied that it was my fault, but it was. What it has taught me now is that I should drive slower and more carefully. As someone said to me the other day "the older I am, the faster I was", how true.

The hardest lesson is to admit that you're not the greatest driver on the roads and any mistake can knock your confidence big time. If you don't recognise it as your fault then it'll only be a matter of time.... Treat it like an ECU map - know where the 'knock' limit is and put some safety margin in and then a bit more.

F

TaviaRS

Cash, cheque or credit card? Of course I'd have to borrow his car!

Saxo Boy, I feel you are getting very defensive (probably with good reason). You bravely posted up what had happened to you, all credit to you for that. We do all like you and we would like you to remain on this planet for a good few years yet. Yes, I and many others may come across as condescending, patronizing *****, but we are trying to pass on our experience, which, like you we have gained from putting ourselves in similar positions to you. Its just that, luckily for some of us, there wasn't an internet around at the time for us to expose our "failings" to the world.

TaviaRS

Oh and I'm not saying I don't drive fast, I make "adequate" progress, but on the whole I am not a fast driver. As you'll notice from my first post on this thread I do not consider myself to be a "good" driver, I know my limits and accept them. Perhaps that's why I drive a Skoda in prefernce to a Scoob?

davyboy

When I get my 300bhp upgrade you can borrow mine, however if you bin it you buy it!

TaviaRS

Sounds like a deal to me! Only 300? Or is it just for Clare to drive?

Makalu

Saxo,
Put it down to experience M8...

I bet there is not a single one of us who contribute to this board who have not had a 'moment' or two.

For Chrissake,m we all drive performance cars - sooner or later one of us is going to find the limit of their cars and their own experience.

Say thanks to him upstairs and move on Saxo.... Glad you are OK and even happier you didnt kill anyone else in the process.

Take you lesson on the chin and try to learn from it.
Good Luck and stay alive.

Mak.

S1mon76

Hi Saxoboy, Years ago i had the same type of thing happen to me. I was driving a astra GTE at the time and the back came out.Only being front wheeled drive i had no chance of getting it back(I was within the speed limits). Thanks to that i have become a better driver and slowed down. It's okay to make mistakes as long as learn by them.

LEE P

im reading your replys saxo with interest, you came on hear and posted it to find out what went wrong did you not??

well above all you went wrong, dont expect people to come and say yeah saxo boy your a fantastic driver coz you give t loads and can drift or not drift at will.

if you can your a better driver than me to do that on a dry road, i think the truth hurts in this case and your pride is damaged!

yes ivve pushed on and still do make good progress in my tdi, no laughing! but when you loose it you have to look closer to home somtimes, yes i hacve lost it but then spoke to people about it and took there advice.

you inexperienced im sorry at 24 unless you have had a priviledged upbringing and paricipated in motorsport from a young age? because all theses 100's of thousands of miles youve done in seven years?? do your sums, are you a rep? doeent make you exprienced in sideways losing it at high speeds methinks.

please dont think it was the car as id hate to rerad you trashed it and hurt yourself!

LG John

I like that

I know I'm not an amazing driver but I am pretty good. I've driven with a lot of guys and gals my age and very few of them have the first clue about handling a car. I also don't have a problem admiting when I've made a mistake, I've made plenty in the past and I made one the other day....but I really do believe that the biggest mistake I made on that occassion was done before I even started up the engine and getting that message accross was the whole point of this thread!!

I'm must admit I'm a little dissapointed by the sheer numbers of people on here that believe they can tell how good a persons driving is by what they type on the internet. That is an unbelieveable talent you have and you should be surfing all the BBS's for driver talent, football talent, rugby talent and so on cause before long you'll be the best scout that ever did walk the earth!!! You all know I don't get on too well with the likes of cossie or NOSnova, etc but I'd never slag there driving based on what they write....you never know how good/safe they might be.

dan4

Saxo Boy,

I'm sorry for your accident and glad you are ok. However you talk about "Driving well within your limits and the limits of your car". You do not have a clue as to the limits of your car as you have owned it for a matter of months and not driven it over a full years weather (IMHO the bare minimum needed to see how the car reacts to wet, dry conditionds etc).

Read Marty_t3's last post, it makes a lot of sense.

As for 7 years experience, ask any driving instructor and they will tell you that you are still a novice. I've had my license for 11 years and the Scoob still has the ability to scare the absolute **** out of me!!

Please take it easy as I'm sure you love your car and the joy you get from it, and after such a short ownership it would be sorry to see you lose it!

Dan4

SCOSaltire

SB
i cant see us falling out.
just scared for you.

I admire you for chatting about it - warning drivers that the car can surprise and to not forget about it.

"I fired hard round a left-hander with the car drifting nicely across the road (still in my ample lane). "
Perhaps your original post had some artistic licence?

I remember that run well... was great fun.
At no point did my car slide.
In fact I am so scared to get it sliding... coz i know i would not be able to catch it.

You are saying that you are not wreckless... thats good if ur not.
I just know that anybody can get carried away and not realise how far they have gone.

I am glad that your not going to let urself go that far.

Take care
Phil

ice man

Is thread still going on

Jeff Wiltshire

Ahhhhh, the arrogance of youth.

At 24 I thought I was invincible and was pretty damn good behind the wheel (handlebars in my case). I know now (18 years on) that I'm not that good and I'm not invincible/immortal. I wouldn't have listened at the time to people telling me that however........



Jeff

juan

well you seem to have overlooked that point and you're the one making it.


Look, at the end of the day all your post are smacking of arrogance as to the standard of your driving and you're the one who has just had a serious accident with no-one else involved even (luckily). The more you go on about your knowledge of physics and your high standard of driving the worse you sound. I think you're one of the first I've seen who just cannot accept they were out of control despite the so obvious pointers (ie you're facing the wrong way on the wrong side of the road etc.)

People here don't seem to be saying 'I don't drive fast so you shouldn't'. People seem to be saying 'Look you were messing about at high speed and you lost it for some reason. Luckily no-one was hurt so take that experience and learn from it rather than deny that you could possibly be at fault and start spouting about how you know the limits of everything when you so obviously do not'.

I can see already that no-one at all is going to be able to make you think you have a anything to learn as there have been some very well put posts on here from people who really do know how to drive and have much much much more 'on the limit' experience than you but you deem them to be full of cr@p.
Strange attitude.

Get a grip and if you can't make sure you don't take anyone else with you when you go.

Regards

TaviaRS

Shock, horror, Scoob outhandled by a bus!

Here, here, Juan.

Flyboy-F33

Having just spent 1/2 an hour reading the last 8 pages on Saxo's near miss, It seems to me that the issue here is 'attitude and experience' as apposed to ability. Now I'm an old git by most of your standards, and in my younger days I had many 'moments' on the public highway and like Saxo Boy, I am certainly still lucky to be here enjoying life. I regard my level of ability to be more or less constant over the years, I have competed in National Production Championships and have tried rallying, karting (super-karts) etc and won a few trophy's so cant be that bad. So here comes my five-penneth.... The public highway isn't the place to be exploring the limits of your ability or that of your car. Just sit and think for a minute about how much worse you would be feeling had you left the road and totalled your pride and joy. Then think hard about how you would be feeling if you had hit a pedestrian (not even another road user) and she was someones wife and mum, and now she's dead!

The answer for me was to take up some sort of motor sport, it becomes all consuming, it gives you the ability to discover your limits and your cars limits, and beleive me, they are knowhwere near where you think. After driving at 10/10ths in competition mode hopefully you learn that there is no need to do it on the public highway. There have been many good postings on this thread about what you can gain from track days etc but the one thing it did for me was to change my attitude to driving on the road. IMHO thats the lesson you should leard from this Saxo. <end of sermon>

PG

Lets not flame SB too much !
This post was put up as a warning to us all and from it I have learned alot and will be paying heed to alot of what he said

* I will not try to heel and toe on a public road with unsuitable shoes on

*I wont drive out with my limits on "track like public roads"

*I wont drift round corners of a track like road that is usually quite busy but "For once it seemed particularly dead " cos I cant see into the future

*When driving my car at speed I will not get my protractor out and measure angles so I can report all the facts and figures to you all

*When I drive like an idiot I will try and justify it to myself (and of course the whole of SN) I will blame tyres, fuel, bugs on the windscreen, the fact the water in the washer bottle lead to the car being unbalanced...cos it couldnt possibly be my fault cos I drove a saxo before owning a scooby

*Subaru are MAD to have released a car with such bad faults

*Because other people drive their cars hard on the road I will too and when I loose control of my car I will point them out to take the heat off me in such a way as to make it seem as if I am doing them a favour

*I will sell my scooby and get a VTS cos these cars defy all laws of phyisics

*I shall spend more time under the car checking the tyres and stuff than I will driving the car so as to make the roads a safer place

*I will go over and over things in my head paying attention to all the wrong things making it all the more clear to me that it couldnt have possibly been my fault

*when my car doesnt feel particularly settled I wont drive it hard round sweeping corners

*If I cant risk the cost of a track day I will risk the lives of other road users by driving as I would on a track on a public road

*I will only drive daft when on my own so as not to cause injury or death to those whom I know. The other people who drive on the public roads and may come round the corner to meet me on the other hand.......

* I will tell you all off for exceeding the speed limits

*I will make sure my GF backs up everything I say

*I will blame the modifications on the car for my style of driving (JB - its all your fault )

*I am 26 so must be ancient
...............
the list goes on

The largest number of RTAs on British roads are 1 car on all 4 wheels, persons released before arrival of emergency services however it is not a good thing to turn up to an RTA when you are just freeing a body or cutting someone out while the driver of any other vehicle involved is wondering if they have killed someone.
Your attitude is one of arrogance and invulnerability, please sit down and have a look at yourself. Have fun, that is what it is all about ( I have, admittedly not to that extent) but keep yourself and others safe.
A good driver is not a driver that can rag it everywhere and not have an accident.......that is a lucky driver (with big ***** apparently??)!

dsmith

SB - You may find it easier with one of these ...



Keep digging

imlach

Saxo-boy.

I've been reading about your "exploits" around Edinburgh for some time now. It worries me and scares me. You'll learn one day, but I just hope that day is not too late for your sake and innocent bystanders sake.

Your "stories" show that you abuse your rights on the public roads. Period. Self-induced sliding on ANY public road is not acceptable. Finding the limits on a public road is not acceptable.
You ARE young, we have ALL done it, but incidents like this are the ones which calm MOST of us down. Take this as your warning and lucky escape.

I know MANY people who cycle regularly on the roads around East Lothian and the roads going off from Hillend. Your driving is EXTREMELY dangerous to cyclists. They would not stand a chance.

Think about it. Please. You do not want to live with the guilt of killing someone.

RichS

Saxo Boy

I'm not going to join in the attitude / who or what was at fault debate.

As an inexperienced driver myself (I'm 31 with 14 years driving, only a few track days and a very small amount of advanced driving tuition) I don't feel I have sufficient knowledge to comment on what happened to you and why.

All I wanted to say was thank you.

- Thank you for not getting killed or killing anyone else.
- Thank you for raising this discussion and putting yourself in the line of fire - we can all learn from it.
- Thank you for making me think again about the risks of driving.

If you're up for doing a Don Palmer driving day, or similar, at some point - let me know. We could organise a Scottish contingent.

Take it easy mate.

Rich

+Doc+

I am both shocked and saddened by this total lack of consideration for other road users - children / walkers / horses / cyclists / motorists etc etc etc
You can only thank your lucky stars that you / anybody wasnt killed.
Save it for the track
Doc

imlach

I also think all this talk of track days and driver tuition is good, but I have a better solution.

Get yourself out in Medic1 (Edinburgh's hi-speed response ambulance). My girlfriend has been in it many times, and what you see will make you drive responsibly again. It is gruesome reality on 4 wheels.

A friend is also a traffic cop for L&B Police. He has had to scrape bodies off the M8 with a shovel as they were so squashed. It made him think.

The above is REALITY and we could all do with a dose.......

Both the above people drive with a lot of caution behind the wheel and know that driver skill does not help. They've seen it all sadly, and it's not fair, nice, or pretty. Sadly, all too often for some reason, the person who is the cause of the accident survives and the innocent seem to die.........

The biggest nut in a car is the one behind the steering wheel.......

LG John

You do realise that in saying that you are saying nobody should ever have an accident! Sometimes people are driving within the limit of their car and/or own abilities and still make mistakes....that's life!

Phil, no hard feelings

PG - you have a somewhat unique perspective given your profession, frankly I'm surprised you get into cars at all

Now: I've been very upset by the flaming I've been getting here and 90% of the time have reacted in anger (trust me most people would do the same under this kind of pressure - human nature) but I really object to what PG said about AJ!!!!!!!!!! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img] That is not ******* on!! At no point have I asked her to say anything and if I ever find out that she posted something she didn't truely believe she's out the door for lying to me.

I'm struggling to see what the problem is with my attitude:

* I admit I have made and make mistakes when driving!
* I admit I'm not as good a driver as many people I've met
* I admit (publicly I might add) when I've made mistakes, which is why you lot all know about it.
* I don't think I'm invincible, I know what would have happened had I not had so much road to play with
* I don't speed in town, in fact, I got a hold of the gear ratios for the MY99 so I always know my exact actual speed and I tend to cruise at 70mph on the bypass and always slow down for the built up areas.
* I pick and choose carefully when I'll go fast - yes on the public road, what would be the point of a scooby if I never drove it fast from time to time.
* I've had an incident recently and tried to explore all avenues of what might went wrong and learn from it
* I've not driven my car fast of late, in fact...I've hardly driven it at all of late until such times as I can be sure its road worthy and that I've got a chance to slowly build my confidence back up
* I am by my very nature an 'thinker' and have spent a lot of time thinking about this incident and my driving in general
* Most importantly, I have 'fear' which is IMO something a lot young people don't have.

Is that lot really the mark of the nutter you all make me out to be???

Dave_A

I think everybody, at some point in time, has had a moment in their car, whether it is a situation they have gotten themselves into (driver error) or a situation caused by another driver (again, driver error, but from a third party). The level of these moments probably varies dramatically from near misses that would only have dented you pride, to full on near death experiences.

The closest I ever came was at 20mph on a wet and muddy road where my underpowered little nova decided to aim for the farmers gate and the road. I missed everything solid, and I didn't hurt anything or anyone, but had someone being wwalking along I may well have done some damage. This made me stop an think about what I was doing and made me change my driving attitude, and this was after a low speed incident.

I haven't read any post on here that has come out as being from a self-righteous do gooder, most, if not all, posts seem to indicate a level of concern for both SB and any other road users around at the time of the accident.

I lost a very close and good friend four years ago when he was 24 when he wrapped his car round a concrete bollard. Not a day goes by when I don't think about him, but I also curse him, because he was a cocky arogant ***** when he got behind the wheel of the car, and it was this insane belief of his own ability that eventually cost him his life. I don't want to come on here and have to read a post saying so-and-so killed himself last night because he thought he was a better driver than everybody else and could handle any situation the road presented to him. No one can anticipate fully what can happen at any moment on a road, regardless of how well you know it. You cannot predict component failure either.

Some points I have decided to take on board after reading this thread:

* I'm 28. I'm still learning. I want to live to see 29.
* I will never know everything there is to know about driving.
* I will never fully understand a cars limits.
* I consider myself to be an average driver.
* Every other driver on the road is dangerous.
* I cannot predict the lottery anymore than I can predict the next car to come around the corner.

Yes, we all make mistakes, and SB, I salute you for having the guts to stand up and say you made one. Hopefully I will never experience a moment on the road like you have.

Live and Learn.
Dave