ice man

you post something like this, you are going to get flamed no matter what you say mate.
Just learn from it and move on

SiPie

I've just read this whole thread and I feel I must now call for a new name for Scoobynet:

"www.The self righteous, self policing, perfect drivers.com"

Now I certainly don't condone the actions of the people mentioned below... FAR FROM IT, but..

1) I have 3 mates who regularly drink and drive [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img].

2) I know of a huge number who go out clubbing and drive home smashed and are positively endangering life everywhere they go

3) I have 2 mates who amazingly are still alive (one who road races bikes.... Isle of Man etc) who have a weekly timed race around a certain 46 mile road circuit

4) My aunt takes more valium/anti-depressants than the clubbing fraternity mentioned above and drives

5) My father who is ill with Parkinson's disease clearly shouldn't still be driving (have tried telling him time and time again).

Should I:

A) Phone the police and report them all
B) Never ever speak or associate with them again as they are clearly all evil and the scum of the earth
C) Accept that it happens and take as much care and precautions re my own safety.
D) Flame them on a website

I know speed is a big killer on our roads, but so many people here(all drivers of high performance cars ) posted re this thread flaming Kenny, but for christ's sake, please accept there are much greater or equal threats on the roads every day from all aspects of humanity... get on with it and point your efforts towards slamming and reporting car thiefs, drunk/drug drivers, mobile phone users (whilst driving [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img])etc, garages that do shoddy repair jobs and MOT cars that should not be allowed on the roads.

I am definetely not saying that excessive speed is ok, Kenny will hopefully learn from this but just trying to make a point that we can't live in such a controlled little world and every time you drive anywhere you risk your life.

Let's all be safe and not so self-righteous

PS Don't bother flaming me for this because all your points will all be 100% correct and I'll be wrong , I'm just trying to take some heat off a young guy who is seriously into his cars and got lucky and has hopefully learnt from it

LG John

Not so mate, the reaction on SSC was quite different. Concern was expressed and I was gently reminded to watch what I was doing - its funny how a bunch of 17-25 year olds can show the maturity to get their safety point accross without offending or condesending yet the scoobynet population (generally older) can't...no wonder our youth in this country run riot, a lot of the older members clearly don't know how to communicate with them

This has been a massive eye opener and justifys why we had a 15odd page thread on what wrong with scoobynet.

I officially give up!

imlach

One further thing on accident statistics.

Is it not well proven that MOST accidents take place within a area close to one's home??? ie, the roads we are MOST familiar with are the ones we are more likely to lose concentration and/or not pay full attention.

Same goes for the Aberlady->Gullane road - because you know it well (as do I!), you are driving it faster and faster as you know what FIXED objects are round the corner - but you don't know what non-fixed objects are round the corner (bikes, horses, people, car crash, roadworks, UFOs, etc).

Just because you know the road doesn't mean you should feel you can drive it faster. You can NEVER EVER know what is round the corner no matter how well you know the road layout.

Your recent incident with the "dip" in the road where you overtook and found a car coming other way out of said blind dip is also testament to the fact that your visual observation is not 100% accurate. While you maintained at the time that it could not have been forseen, you got yourself into a dangerous situation.

Can you see why people worry???

BigDude

Saxo Boy

In my opinion based on 25 years of driving, it seems your "experience" can be attributed to immaturity, not knowing your limit, and a lack of experience and responsibility which basically translates to being a poor driver. Here in Switzerland the roads are truly full of young aggressive drivers like you who must obviously think that being a good driver is the ability to floor the gas pedal and be obnoxious. Please think of the ramifications of such behavior and grow up before you hurt someone.

imlach

SiPie

Let me know the drunk drivers and they will be caught....

No-one should feel guilty about shopping drunk drivers to the cops.

TaviaRS

Agree on the shopping drink drivers. I have done it to 3 people I know and the ex.

I have no problem with doing it as I have almost been killed by one and have had 4 friends killed by them. I HATE DRUNK DRIVERS! [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

Little Miss WRX

I went through an incredible amount of denial about how I used to drive.

I wanted to prove I could drive as fast and sometimes faster than some.
I realise now that all I was proving was how fecking reckless and stupid I was. Some manouveres and speeds I used to do would have put me and possibly others in an early grave Fortunately, nothing like that has happened and I do thank my lucky stars.

I now drive with a **** load more awareness and safety.

Neil is right I *had* to change my youthful competitiveness and start having respect for myself and others whilst driving.

Does it really matter that you can take a corner 5mph faster than some???? Does it really matter that you can have your car balancing on the verge of it's limits?

I much prefer learning about cars on track days where I can take a corner a bit faster each time - learn how it responds under certain conditions.
On the road the same corner that you drive time and time again could have had a recent leaf fall which will lessen the grip of the tyres. A major accident could have happened right round the corner, out of sight - but with not enough room for you to react. The list is endless.

If I experience fear on the road - it isn't from my driving anymore - it used to be because I was driving to the point where I had no room for a mistake - I now drive with fear of other people and their driving.

Driving on the limits or near the limits on public roads is not worth risking yourself or other people's lives.

IanWatson

SB - you don't seem to be reading what is being posted - ignore the 'don't speed ever' brigade and take some notice of the more balanced replies, of which there are quite a few.

Most people, me included, simply read your early comments that suggested you were such a good driver you couldn't learn anything from Don Palmer et al with regards to road driving.

That - and that alone - shot your whole post out of the sky, and without the benefit of knowing you and your driving in the 'real' world, it's easy to infer from your comments that you are at that classic 'I know it all' stage a few years post-driving test that most confident drivers (myself included) experience. It took a crash for me to see it.

I drive like a loon sometimes, find it very hard to resist sliding round a wet, open bend if there's no one around. I'm pretty fast round the twisties and have always been into 'getting sideays' even on my Grifter. I'm certain, however, that some extra tution is going to both increase my safety and that of other road users, and also improve my car handling.

You don't seem to have actually retracted that initial, rather arrogant claim. I guess that's why so many people keep posting in an attempt to make you see sense.

Neil Smalley

SB

Don't give up, just learn from it. There will always be someone ready to point the finger. As the old cliche goes, when you point a finger at someone there are 3 pointing back at you.

EVERYONE needs to reassess their own attitudes, that includes me, you and the millions of other drivers out there. Until that happens then we have to assume that everyone is an accident waiting to happen.

Another lesson would be, not to post stories of this ilk on a public BBS(You would have got the same reaction on almost any BBS I know of) but to think it through.

I think I can see what you were trying to do, but I think talking it over with AJ would have achived the same thing with a lot less grief and public finger pointing.

LG John

Are full de-cats ok

I think the problem is that many people could have created a near identical thread if they had posted about there experiences but obviously they chose not to. I posted and i took the heat big time, but as I've said before it at least has generated thought about what can happen. I guess I foolishly thought, as usual, that good human nature would prevail and it would constructive and fair. I think I've learned more in this thread about human nature/reaction/attitude than about driving. Its always been a problem of mine that I'm too honest and too open with people. What happened to me was un-witnessed by anyone! Most people in this world would count there lucky stars but not tell anyone! I for some strange reason decide to tell my parents (who are now just worried), my workmates (more slagging fuel for the pub), and then to top it all half the internet I'm sure there is some profoud reason for why I'm like this but I'm beat if I can figure it out....

SiPie

Imlach

Agree with your moral code mate and I have on 2 past occasions phoned the police and taken the keys off someone else.

But I choose to just not go out with that crowd anymore rather than being tempted into shopping my mates....

Always a difficult one

PS Should I also shop my aunt that I mentioned as well and the guy that just went past in his lorry whilst on the phone. Hope you see the point I was trying to make

POC

Dont feel like reading the whole thread

The backend on a scooby is a progressive controllable drift type scenario, reading you original post it sounds alot like you panicked and lifted - one thing you should never do in a scooby - the weight transfer will cause the backend to come round so violently you would have to be a god behind the wheel to catch it (which obviously you are not).

I have demonstrated to many friends the lift off over-steer that the scooby is capable of, all I can say is that this was a very bad driver error, you are very lucky not to be dead.

If I were you i'd sell the scooby and go back to your saxo. boy racers dont belong in these high performace 4wd cars. If anyone was coming the other way they would have been killed cos you were driving above your limits, and for what reason?

P

davyboy

Just where were you demonstrating this ?

marty_t3

SB,

As Ian just said, ignore the 'holier that thou - i dont speed' replies and think about the good advice that has been given.

There is a lot of experience on this board and most of it is telling you the same thing. If i was in your position i would take note of the advice and be grateful that the replies have (for the most part) been constructive.

Chimple

Hi

Umm.

I think I also drive a little too fast, would anyone have any ideas on how I could slow myself down a little?

imlach

A good way to slow yourself down is to do a running commentary on your driving. Sprinkle in some unlikely scenarios - what would happen if that car at the next junction turned out - could I stop?

Going round a fast sweeping A-bend at 60+mph - ask yourself what you would do if someone was on the wrong side of road as you came round the corner.....

Play it out in your head as you drive......

T-uk

saxo,

glad your okay.

I wish you had the ***** to track your car,you might just live longer.

I used to come up with loads of excuses too,as to why I would not track the car.after a friend signed me up without me knowing,I have never looked back.they are by far the safest place for this type of driving.I admit I take my brain out sometimes and I have had an "off" which I am still paying for,but this highlighted to me just how safe they are.had I done it on the road I would have died.tyre walls give,bricks,trees and buses don't.

this thread is about your warning to us,here is my warning to you.if you cannot take it to a track to find the limits,sell the car.

we are all human,we all drive like ***** at times.I am starting to drive like an **** again because I have not done a track day for a while.I must have very little will power as I will hit a road like yours,that I know and the buzz out-ways the risks for that moment.I usually get to the other end thinking to myself "you ******* idiot",swear I won't do it again but always do.the thing I am trying to say is when I am doing a track day a month,I do not feel the need to push like this on the road.

I am leaving myself wide open here for criticism but so did you by posting this thread.

TaviaRS

Buy a Skoda?

john banks

Kenny, I rolled a barrel-rolled my Focus threes times having gone through a brick wall at 50 mph estimated impact speed a few years back and then proceeded to buy a Scooby.

I was totally committed to a corner, but the unexpected happened in the form of an oncoming vehicle which was over the white line. In avoiding collision with that vehicle I had a big off.

It would be easy to blame the other vehicle, but I know that if I was not driving at 10/10ths of my ability that Focus would still be on the road today.

I was not just unlucky, it was going to happen at some point the way I was driving. It was my fault. I got it wrong.

On a track it is a safe place to explore limit handling if done sensibly. There is huge run off and the trackside furniture is more sympathetic, and my GP partner runs the medical service so that attention is about 1 minute away if it does all go pear shaped. There is no traffic coming the other way usually and the marshalls are looking out for you.

I can't think of a bigger contrast to the road in all those respects. Yes it is expensive. When I took you round I was hardly on the limit or very quick, I am not that skilled, but I was driving in a way that I felt comfortable with and pushing much harder than I would on the road, and had a hell of a good time.

Driving on the road losing lateral grip sounds as though it would meet the criteria for dangerous driving to me.

How about driving at 8/10 on the road and leaving 2/10 for your and your car's longevity? Boring? Statistically less likely to cause an accident or cost £££££ or £££££££ if you end up unable to work for life?

As my familiarity with Scoobies has increased and having done track work & tuition my road driving is now smoother and safer than previously, and some tuition helped return my confidence after my earlier smash. I drive more briskly than many now (I meet a lot with the mapping work) but I don't go mad on corners anymore, but need to develop more skills on track.

If you think you can safely four wheel drift or under/oversteer a Scooby on the road except at low speeds you are a much better driver than me, but I don't want to be coming the other way or be walking on the pavement.

Rather than being disappointed at Scoobynet perhaps it should make you think a bit about your driving. If you get mad at me for saying that then OK, I would rather see it and see you alive for normal life expectancies You have made alarmingly frequent postings of your altercations with other drivers on here, and seem to manage to upset other drivers somehow. Is there a factor about you in there? Maybe not, and I'm wrong, but if there is it will be difficult to see it and admit it even to yourself. We're all the same in that respect.

FWIW in going out with you in your Saxo it did not feel remotely safe even going considerably slower than I would in the same road in the Scooby. The brakes just didn't stop it, the dive as you were doing so made the tail light, and your car control was not at all smooth. Our co-passenger agreed, but it is not what you tell someone when you first met them. Now I may not be as skilled at car control as you, and you are free to criticise my driving based on your trips out with my, I am probably too over-confident on those roads that I know and forget that it is not "fixed" as it was last time I drove it. Few are that good that they don't have major things to learn about driving until well into their 40s?? Those that have car control often lack observation skills and mix up the two abilities?

johnfelstead

Saxo Boy, you may not think it, but you have very very little knowledge of limit handling in an Impreza, I am not surprised you stuffed it, I was expecting it to be honest. If you are smart you will learn from this and accept that you have a lot to learn. Modern cars like the Impreza are incredible pieces of kit, but that performance comes at a price, which is small margins of error. It is very easy to make a bad judgment, we all do it, what matters is how much is your normal window of safety, if its small, you are going to stuff it, no matter how good your car control abilities are. Being able to read the road adds to this safety margin, but slowing down just a tad, even when you are in maximum attack mode makes a very big difference to your ability to react to the unexpected.

There will always be cases when you crash due to very unusual situations such as diesel on the road or the actions of someone else triggering a pile up, not everything is avoidable, a large percent of crashes are though. Go out and enjoy the car, if you start thinking about the way you place the car and approach the roads you drive giving yourself a little more safety margin, you will be quicker and you will get a more satisfying drive. Some of the quickest and safest road driving I have seen was from a BBS member, who knows who he is. This guy is a Police Driver and I sat behind him whilst he used the text book techniques of placing the car for maximum visibility and control, it was bloody fast but it was so smooth and impressive to watch, if we taught this kind of driving in the UK rather than the crap we go through with our current test system the roads would be much safer and the pleasure people got from driving would increase.

Enjoy your car, but understand, you have a lot to learn about driving a high performance car close to it’s limits on the road, one of those lessons is you don’t drive it close to its limits, you programme your own limits to be well below the physical limits of the car, should you wish to survive yet still enjoy yourself.

LG John

Ok re: training! Anticipation and awareness is critical to good driving is it not? I am aware of this and always assess everything I can see relative to how dangerous it may, may not be. Many a time I've been a passenger and spotted a potential hazard before the driver so for this and other reasons I know my awareness is pretty good. Re: anticipation, I've been trying to make the point that on this occasion I couldn't anticipate what was going to happen because it happened for no obvious reason and without any warning - the Impreza is actually quite a communicative car and I find it gives plenty of warning (even at high speed) as to when its going to start to let go.

Thereafter, I assume such courses involve control and skill and this is what worrys me. I'm the type of guy that buys new shoes and has to wear them that day, gets a new computer and has to get it set up and running in minutes. If I go to a track and get taught some fancy multi-foot braking into a corner whilst winding down the window technique I'd probably end up trying it on the road home - at least I can recognise that failing. I prefer to slowly (and I really do mean slowly) build up my knowledge about my car based on what messages its giving me whilst trying to be as road aware, etc as possible.

That is my reason for not being massively attracted to these courses, sorry if they are flawed.

For the record I expected to be able to drive the Impreza faster than I can by now but I'm pleased with myself that I've resisted the temptation to push it too hard too fast and still slowly build up my knowledge - this event will only slow me down further.

I would like to thank everyone that has posted constructively in this thread

mutant_matt

Neil (and others),

Fixed the broken link for you.

Matt

LG John

JB - Not going to get angry at you, your a friend and I respect you opinion but I'm surprised at a few things in your post. Firstly you talk about the car diving under braking. I demostrated that to you in a straight with no other traffic around following questions about the brakes! Of course the backend went light but at no point did she think of switching ends. I was also driving a road I hadn't driven before in the dark and I didn't push it hard at all IMO. I recal, at one point in the journey (and this has played on my mind for months) that following a distraction from our conversation I nearly missed a sharp left but other than that the car was well under control. Please don't forget you were sitting in a £10k hot-hatch made from tin-foil and the three of us aren't the smallest, shortest blokes in the world so its never going to feel as planted at the scooby!!

CraigH

Saxoboy,

If you actually read most of the posts, they are all constructive.
After reading it, I don't see many posts of preaching.

You say that the point of your post was to warn people to check there cars which is fair enough. And very true.

But you're not taking on board the point behind a lot of the posts re your driving and skill, you're purely getting defensive. No-one likes to be called a **** driver and I don't recall anyone implying that - the only thing I've seen is that it was your fault and that's that.

You can't actually really defend yourself on this - I can see why you posted and I think you're very brave (stupid ) for doing so.

But learn from it - that's all people are saying.

You may well be able to drift a car but that doesn't make you a good driver - a good driver will be the one that listens and has the ability to think clearly if and when things do go wrong. Diablo hit the nail on the head when he said you panicked, when you said it was a blur. If it wasn't panic what was it?

Not having a pop just saying to chill and stop being defensive and listen to what people say without throwing it back in their faces - "if the cap fits etc"

PS - glad you're ok.
PPs you're a **** for not doing the brakes before making it quicker

jasey

SB - If I remember correctly you've been an owner of a scoob for about 3 months and have driven fast pretty much all your life. So you've found the limit of the car by putting it off the road after three months.

Rather than flame you - where do you see this all ending up ?

juan

I think if you dug this thread out in 5 or 10 years time and re-read it you would probably actually understand what a lot of people are saying and also see what was causing them to say it, and actually be a bit embarressed at some of your misplaced confidence.
I can also understand that it may be harder to read the comments with an open mind when you feel that you are the 'target'. But to be fair most comments seem to be arising out of concern rather than sheer flaming.

Anyway, you said your car doesn't feel settled. Fix that before doing anything else. What is the point in driving a car hard if it doesn't feel right? Just asking for trouble.

Also, anticipation and observation is one thing. Thats the easy bit. Anyone with some sense can do that.
Learning how top react to dangerous situations is the bit you have to learn through experience and an awful lot of it as every situation is gonna be different.
You're not gonna learn this on the public roads, a physics book, or a quiet roundabout. You'll die and maybe kill others before you build up a good knowledge base, particularly if you erroneously think you know all the limits etc. Also, if you're playing at speed you really can't afford to get it wrong many times finding out how to deal with certain situations.

Thats why people do, and are recommending these courses - to learn a considerable amount from people who really know what they're doing in the safest possible environment. You say you haven't learnt as much as you'd hoped with the scooby so far. Again one of these courses is gonna teach you a lot more in a matter of hours safely than you could possibly learn in months on public roads dangerously.

Finally, I don't think I've seen a single post on here that says 'don't speed'. Plenty saying 'be sensible' and 'realise you maybe have more to learn'.

How can you keep saying this sort of thing when you've just proved to yourself otherwise. Sure, most of the time its communicative. But obviously not all the time.

I think its a good thing you posted this thread as discussion about these things is good.
I'm just disappointed you can't comprehend what people are saying here.

imlach

SB,

JB said it did not feel "remotely safe".
Yet you are very quick to try to defend yourself in the face of his comments.

This strikes me as someone who is unwilling to listen & learn and thinks they know quite a bit. FFS you're 24, you've been driving under 10 years, and at least two people have expressed concern at first hand over your driving.

I'd LOVE for you to be in the passenger seat while YOU are driving (if it was possible). You might then see the problems.

imlach

If Michael Schumacher said your driving was crap, would you try to defend it to him?? Probably not....

Scotsman

iTrader: (3)

I was especially tall and heavy (i.e. FAT!!) that day