T-uk

john,

quick question for you.I do 5000miles a year,mostly short trips under 10miles,for this reason I choose to run magnatec,change it every 3000miles.when I do a trackday or a long journey I stick either the mobil motorsport in or the motul.

do you not think for my road use I am better to stick with magnatec?

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

T-UK,
why put several different oils in when one isnt any good but the others are?
You may as well stick to one that protects your engine no matter what you do with it rather than half protect your engine when driving in town (where you get more wear anyway) and then try to seemingly correct it by running a better fully synthetic oil on track days?
Just use one decent one for the lot

Tony

Tim Caddick

So, John, I have a 16,000 mile MY00 UK Turbo with an ITG panel filter, and a Scoobysport rear box. It's not been remapped & I run it on BP SuperUnleaded. The Subaru garage puts BP oil in but I'm not sure which one it is. Is this an "OK" spec to run, or do you think I'm running a risk off blowing it all up? Would I be better off sticking the old original equipment air filter back in? Or is this only really relevant to Sti 4/5/P1's?

T-uk

that is the whole point Tony,I doubt the motul or mobil will offer as good protection from cold as magnatec.once they are up at temp fair enough.

mega_stream

I don't think a panel filter and a back box is going to cause a UK car problems.

I've been looking to find a decent STi for a while now, many have been modded, which is why I'm still without car. I want one that's not been messed with.

Brings a whole new meaning to the Magnatec "ouch-ouch" advert though

johnfelstead

personally i wouldnt use magnatec because you may decide to give it a blat just for the hell of it, it's times like that where you need the protection most.

I would use Castrol RS 10/60 however If you have hydraulic tappets (UK turbo) then in really cold weather the RS 10/60 can take a second to pump up, so it may be better to use Mobil1 motorsport in winter. I wouldnt use that stuff on track though, it's like wee wee when its hot, i dont like it at all in those conditions.

For the track stick with Motul 15/50 or Castrol RS10/60, in an STi with solid followers i would use these daily too. The Castrol is better for longer periods between changes as the Motul is designed for regular replacement. (dont confuse the Castrol RS 10/60 with the crap Halfords sells, which is in the same packaging, but is a 0/40)

scoobycar60

Late Phase 2 Maf sensors are the film type,they are very sensitive to contamination, most non original filters flow well but dont filter properly...result contamination which causes engine ecu to run the engine lean, dets and ANY oil film breaks down under this shock loading - result is bearing failure = knock knock.
Dud clutch can result in strange ecu outputs and leaning...speak to Bob Rawle about this.
Check your clutch on rebuild carefully (i would replace it as a matter of course) and your maf sensor to see if it is clean.
I've been there, my STi died after about 35,000 miles, sensor was filthy and clutch had had it, I had no warrenty so I had to find about £3250 to get it all sorted, Sti's are expensive and quite difficult to rebuild. Try and find someone recommended on this BBS to do it.
Sorry for you, its a real nightmare, most dedicated garages should be able to turn it around in a month
Welcome to the Beggers Club (Big end gone getting engine repaired soon) ....soon as in when I can afford it!
I agree, sadly Warranty Holdings dont have a great track record for paying out for this sort of thing.
Best of luck though

scooby1973

ive found out the hard way about subaru oil pumps,and r having an uprated one in the new bottom end.this seems to be a common problem as there r countless posts about bottom ends giving way on here?
hello tony, not seen any posts from you lately?.....

johnfelstead

the later spec Impreza uses a film MAF sensor, which is very sensitive to filtration changes. The earlier MAF seems to be a lot less prone to failure.

My own feeling is not to run an aftermarket filter because of this. I find the paper filters start to strangle the engine at about 6500rpm, but you can buy genuine STi filters that protect the MAF and still flow well up to 8000rpm and over 280BHP. I dont know if this is specced for the P1, i imported the filters direct from Japan rather than use an aftermarket one.

If you are retaining the cat and just changing a backbox the flow changes will be minor, if you are decatting i personally would want a remap. The STi/P1 is more on the limit and more likely to have problems with a decat without a remap than a UK car. I have always been cautious when it comes to engine mods and try and look at the whole system, this includes the fuel supply, cooling etc too. Maybe Bob, John B, PeteC etc would like to put there input to this on the UK turbo, i tend to think STi these days.

I have lost count of the number of late spec cars blowing their MAF (UK and STi), they are very sensitive, they dont like cone filters in particular and need the resonator box to smooth the airflow. Why risk extra stress on a sensitive component for a few BHP, it makes no sense to me?

CraigH

Amazing how suddenly everyone knows why Scoob engines can let go

Russ - let me know what WH say. Bet you a tenner it's what I said

Get all your ammo in place.

johnfelstead

no craig, but there are sensible precautions you can take that will lessen the chances of a failure.

NINJA

how much are uprated oil pumps and where can u get them pls

john banks

What is the mechanism for leaning due to a failing clutch? Trying to think laterally here - is the thought that it would traverse load zones too quickly? Would imagine that lower load on the engine from clutch slip would reduce the chance of det, but clearly there are other factors at play?

Deep Singh

John Felstead "Errmmm,hello the MAF was'nt being used with the Link but was still bolloxed by your aftermarket induction".If you read my post you would see thats exactly what I was saying ie it could very well have been a knackered MAF which I never detected because I was running a Link.Same to Secretagentman I KNOW the Link does'nt use the MAF.I take a balanced view about these things I think you adopt a defensive one.You can blame fuel,bad mods,etc but there is more to it than that.THERE IS AN INHERENT WEAKNESS over and above other cars that also have engine failures occasionally.Look at the Evo,fewer numbers in the UK but proportionally far far less engine failures(clutch goes though).Go to any outfit that deals with Scoobs(ie Scoobysport,PE,PS) and you will always see about three engines waiting to be rebuilt.Subaru engines have an inherent weakness regardless of oil/fuel/mods...deal with it.

Dark Blue Mark

John F,

I think you need to look at the science behind lube oils before you condemn them, I don't claim to know more than most on here, yet I work with them and select them for gas turbine engines etc.. There is far too much of, he said this so it must be true, without underdstanding it. I agree fully synth is fine but there's nothing wrong with Magnatec. I will repost this statement, from a leading tribologist in the industry:

"As regards your Subaru , from your comments I think it must be a pre 2000 car. 5w - 40 is not a must. Only real stipulation from Subaru is not to use 0w oils ( Ther are some poor quality ones out there which the turbo would not like). So no problem in using 5w-40 Visco 7000 or Duckhams or 10w60 Cartrol Formula RS - all full synthetics. Customer Technical tell me that as the actual API/ACEA specification of the oil requested by Subaru is fairly standard and they do not actually specify full synthetic then a cheaper ( but excellent performance alternative) would be 10w 40 Castrol Magnatec.

If you use your car really hard ( ie do things like track race days) then I would stick to full synthetic otherwise Magnatec would be fine. Viscosity grade is not really the issue - overall quality of oil is what matters"

I will find out at what temperature it thermally cracks at.

Far too much bull-**** on here.

MB

johnfelstead

that was my point re the MAF, i.e it was damaged by the change in air filter and only became a problem when the link was removed and the standard ECU re-used. It had nothing to do with you being lucky, it was basic failure to recognise that changing back to standard setup could be a problem.

As to the oils, i have worked with highly stressed turbo engines for years (and talked to WRC design engineers who know much better than me) and seen the state the turbo bearing area gets in when you use a low grade oil, it stinks due to burning and it isnt pretty. I am just telling people what i know are good oils that give very high protection in this aplication, if you want to read that as bull**** then thats your perogative.

At the end of the day you can use what you want, it doesnt affect me one bit. You can ignore my type of thinking with regards decating and air filter use, dump valves etc, i dont really care. All that really matters is that i protect my own engine as much as is possible, considering i do drive these cars at upto 150MPH flat out on track regularly i have a rather large interest in making sure i dont use something that doesnt work, i couldnt care less what a chemist in a lab thinks, it's what i have seen on tracks/rally stages that matters.

What oil do SWRT use again? Motul 15/50 last time i looked. I wonder why? What oil do DOME use on their WRC cars? Motul 15/50. What does my team use on our WRC spec Escort Cosworth engine, Motul 15/50. What oil do most high powered road going cosworths use, Castrol RS 10/60. Dont think i can add to this bull****.

turbo2000

well said mark !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

johnfelstead

scrub that dont care comment, if i didnt care i wouldnt waste my time on here.

rob oneill

john,
I think you have a vast knowlege of turbod' cars and everything you have said seems logical to me. An interesting read.
Cheers, Rob.

R19KET

Sure Subaru's recommended oil, is nothing special, and Magnatec comes within the spec'.

They were also happy with the spec' of the 97'/'98 pistons, that is now universally accepted as having piston slap issues.

I'm sure that they feel their oil pump PRV is a great design too, even though many experienced tuners, and dealers recommend it's up rated.

Or that the point of this thread, BIGEND bearing failure, has nothing to do with their engine design !!!!

I would suggest that car manufacturers sometimes get it wrong. Sometimes they admit to their mistakes, but other times, they choose to bury their heads in the sand, and ignore them.

More often than not, the best advice will come from the independant people who are experienced at re-building the engines, when they go wrong. Who see the results of different oils, tuning methods, poor quality replacement pattern parts, etc'.

What I find interesting, is that we wouldn't dream of putting cheap remold tires on the car, most of us spend hundreds, if not thousands of pounds on mod's, but we're discussing saving £20 on oil every few thousand miles ??????????

Is it REALLY worth it ?

Mark.

adair69

Hi Guys

Just jumped in on this thread.... Very interesting. Just to put a small spanner in the works, Quote from Subaru UK
" We do not feel our engines develop enough heat to warrant a Fully synthetic oil, and as such recommend the use of Semi synthetic oils"
Interesting the handbook doesn't actually quite come out and stipulate if it is or isn't, and the key word above was "recommend". I paid very close attention to this comment when enquiring why a dealer had put in Semi on my 1st service for the STi7. It seems that they will sit on the fence on this one.
On a personal note the STi7 was very "tappety" so two days later I put in Silkolene, and miraculously the Tapping went. I've used this grade in a Carrera 4, Alfa Spider 3litre, and a 4.5 litre and none (touching the biggest piece of wood possible) none ever went
bang.
As to not generating enough heat, mmmm if I was a betting man, mine before mods was generating quite a lot, in fact until I put in the Motec 800, I didn't realise there is a flat spot on the temp gauge of about 10 degrees!!


JohnF you're right in the approach to Mods ie.
Standard induction (STi spec filter panel)
Retained front CAT , Mid section and back box replaced
Mapped to this spec M800
( Loss of 30 Kilos in weight from OEM wheels and tyres biggest improvement)

If you read the Aussie threads you'll note that these cars do not like all the CATS out, and lots of STi7's have gone bang over there, easily pointed to the CATS however and a resultant massive boost spike.

MODS like everything in Moderation!!


p.s. sorry to hear about your car mate..

NDT

Russ,
let us know what Warranty Holdings say in the end....

when my STi4 went bang (guess what, big end bearing..) the warranty had been invalidated by the previous owner missing a service.
Warranty Holdings told me that they wouldn't have covered it anyway, as they treat Subaru big end problems as a "design fault".

so what's the point of the warranty?

Nick

STi wanna Subaru

iTrader: (1)

Ok, I'm prepared to have the pi55 taken for the next idea but.....

A lot of people put posible engine failure down to faulty MAF's. If they get contaminated they under read and the engine can run lean. However on the flip side if the Lambda sensor starts to fail the ECU will make the car run rich, which I believe is the better of two evils?

Couldn't they use the signal from the MAF and reverse it? This way if the MAF did start to fail then the engine would run rich instead of lean.

*Awaits to be shot down in flames*

Tone Loc

iTrader: (1)

I've got to agree with Mark.... why spend £20 less on oil when you've potentially spent thousands elsewhere on the car????? For me it's Motul 15w/50 and because i have no local distribitor i have to spend loads on the bloody p+p but i think it's worth it.

Why take the risk?

Tony.

Dark Blue Mark

John,

Im sure WRC manufacturers use oils (in their £500,000 car) you won't even have heard of, which Motul wouldn't sell to the public, doesn't mean to say you need it in a 20k road car does it?! Shall we use 105 octane fuel too?!

Ok, so you track yours, its quite justified to use a fully synth.

I agree on the mods etc, but you dont have any technical backing for what youre saying about oil.

And the chemist in the lab conducted a rather large test on cars ranging from normal stuff to Saab turbo's and M3's so I would say it makes him a bit more qualified than yourself.

Get real.

MB

Edited as i'm trying not to be offensive, just constructive.

[Edited by Dark Blue Mark - 11/13/2002 10:12:01 AM]

TBMeech

Some good advice imho from Mr Felstead there, I believe his thinking is extremely logical:

STI / P1 is already at 280 bhp as standard, so in terms of the engine being already stressed its at a much higher state of tune than a UK Turbo.

Personally I use Castrol RS 10/60 and nothing else, i've got a nice 25l drum sitting in my garage, I only used this from previous advice, now this advice has been backed up by several people inluding John F I wouldnt change to what I believe is an inferior oil.

I agree with the de-cat comments without a remap is dangerous especially for an STI or P1, I've raced motorbikes for a few seasons and whenever I changed my filter or exhaust on the bike it would have to be re-setup carburation wise, it would be insane to change a full exhaust and filter and then not compensate for the changes without changing the jetting, so for something as temprimental as an STI or P1 its only going to be dangerous to the engine to start putting de-cat and hi flow filters on without a re-map, VTA d/v on STI and P1 is bad news anyway, ask Bob Rawle, imho they screw up the fuelling which again is not good news.

On the MAF comments, i'm running full de-cat, APS induction, Re-Circ D/V on a MY99 STI-V, the car has got Link on it, I put an induction kit on it 1 day before I got the car linked, so from my own personal expecience (Tempting fate here ) I've not had any major issues with the car blowing up (Yet!! lol) or Maf faliure, so when I return the car to standard I've got a brand new MAF sensor sitting in my garage to put on as I would be pretty certain that the current MAF is dead but as Link doesnt use it I wouldnt be sure.....

Just my 2p's worth.

RussP

Becoming a member of the BEGGERS club has actually cheered me up no end...! LOL :smile:

Looking through the warranty holdings contract they do indeed exclude "design faluts". Which, having spoken to a tame solicitor this morning, makes pretty much for an "unfair contract" challenge should they decide not to honour it. And is almost unprovable on their behalf in any case.

Craig - did you succeed with your claim in the end? I remmeber it got somewhat contentious!

Russ

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Ok, heres my opinion
For all you people who like going out for a drink, which lubricates you better, a pint of lager or a pint of lager shandy?
Its the same (before anyone gets jumpy) as running semi synthetic as fully synthetic (theoretically ) due to a semi synthetic being both a mix of fully synth and mineral oil, the fully synth is still a better oil, especially for running round town where the car gets more wear and tear.
As for subaru saying that the engine doesnt get hot enough to recommend a fully synthetic.... well they are correct, the engine doesnt but no doubt they forgot about the turbo which runs slightly hotter and at temps these things get to i wouldnt run anything but a fully synthetic oil.
The other thing we have to look at is what oil does....
No matter what its form it lubricates, no one is doubting that but some oils lubricate better than others (ether? based ones?) which are normally fully synthetics, but then again this is designed to minimise wear on start up where most of the damage is done, but the fact is, its protecting better than semi and non synthetic oils even when its not running round the engine
In the end we are talking about oil properties, now out of the ground oil (mineral) will lubricate, man made oil (fully synthetic) will lubricate but will also be designed to stick better, take longer to break down, resist heat more etc as its designed to do that, mineral oil isnt so semi synthetic may be good but its a mixture and wont have as many of the properties or capabilities of a fully synthetic oil

Tony

CraigH

Russ,

If what NDT says is true, check the warranty and if it doesn't specifically state that your car is not included then you've got them.
If it does say your car is excluded then you may still have them cos they've sold you a fully comprehensive, uncomprehensive warranty.

TonyBurns

iTrader: (3)

Craig,
dont they (WH) have to stipulate on the policy anything thats not included in the cover?

Tony