'Nother Sti goes BANG!
13 November 2002, 10:46 AM
#61
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Just my experiences
I recently sold my STI 5. It had done 59,000 miles with only Magnatec used, this was the oil used by the Dealer so I carried this on. After 15,000 miles I had a BR link done with Blitz Sus filter, SS BB and I ran the car like this right up to the 59,000 mark. The only change I made was that the oil then was then changed every 3500 miles. I decided to do this because I could see the oil looked so unhealthy after 4000-5000 miles. When I decided to sell the car I removed all the bits and after replacing the original ECU the car wouldn't run, it needed a new MAF, after I replaced that the car was fine. Just for the record its replacement scoob a STI 3 RA has just had it first oil change and I've used Mobil 1
Paul
I recently sold my STI 5. It had done 59,000 miles with only Magnatec used, this was the oil used by the Dealer so I carried this on. After 15,000 miles I had a BR link done with Blitz Sus filter, SS BB and I ran the car like this right up to the 59,000 mark. The only change I made was that the oil then was then changed every 3500 miles. I decided to do this because I could see the oil looked so unhealthy after 4000-5000 miles. When I decided to sell the car I removed all the bits and after replacing the original ECU the car wouldn't run, it needed a new MAF, after I replaced that the car was fine. Just for the record its replacement scoob a STI 3 RA has just had it first oil change and I've used Mobil 1
Paul
13 November 2002, 11:42 AM
#62
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Don't want to go too far off-topic, but how do you find the STi 3 compares to the STi 5? I drove an STi 3 and it was pretty awful - but I think it might have been a bad example. In the market for a weekend car y'see
13 November 2002, 11:53 AM
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Interesting question. The STI 3 I have is a RA, I always expected it to be a very hard ride and it is but others who have been in it say that it is less choppy than my old STI 5. With the short ratio gearbox the acceleration is quite awesome and feels quicker than my linked STI 5. The steering is quite heavy but ever so direct. In side it looks like you are sitting in an old car (compared to my STI 5) just like going back to my original MY95. Its my car and not for the family, unlike my STI 5 was, so I like the rawness of the car.
Paul
Paul
13 November 2002, 01:20 PM
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so far as engines letting go, dont tend to find the oil, other than "not" being fully synthetic being at fault, rather the supply of the stuff to the main bearings, which are the downfall of many an engine.
The backplate retaining screws come loose. thus allowing the oil pressure to fall so not pushing it to where its needed. This fault also occurs if the engine has any excessive end float on the crnkshaft, thus putting more load on the back of the oil pump assembly, it has even been known to push the front oil seal out on occaisions, as every time you put your foot on the clutch pedal, the engine crank floats back and forwards. I personally use slick 50 in the oil, just incase anything like this happens, at least it gives some barrier against such dramatic and sudden failure.
The backplate retaining screws come loose. thus allowing the oil pressure to fall so not pushing it to where its needed. This fault also occurs if the engine has any excessive end float on the crnkshaft, thus putting more load on the back of the oil pump assembly, it has even been known to push the front oil seal out on occaisions, as every time you put your foot on the clutch pedal, the engine crank floats back and forwards. I personally use slick 50 in the oil, just incase anything like this happens, at least it gives some barrier against such dramatic and sudden failure.
.
13 November 2002, 03:19 PM
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Hi Russ,
Sorry to hear about your engine, Jane said she saw your car there and a load others!!!
Oh well...my car is no.5 then
won't be seeing that back for a while!!
It certainly seems there are far more STi failures than any others. I personally think it's mainly down to fuelling and oils used. There are a fair few tuned UK cars running strong which suggests it's the fuelling/ignition timing of the jap cars, particularly when combined with any mods- so a remap is surely a must for these. I wonder if the oil pump is different on the STi to the UK cars.
I'm another advocate for the Castrol RS 10/60 oil, I use this religiously in my car and engine wise it's never missed a beat in 64,000 miles and that's with oil temps upto 130 degrees at no.3. I believe Barretts run this in their rally car too. The only reason mines in is the head gasket..(too much boost on an my98 uk with composite gaskets but thats another story!!)
I wonder how many failures there have been on cars running this Castrol RS Grade oil??
Nito
ps. Warranty holdings also come up with the aireated oil excuse too I've heard- whatever that is!!
edited-Spelling
[Edited by NITO - 11/13/2002 3:21:49 PM]
Sorry to hear about your engine, Jane said she saw your car there and a load others!!!
Oh well...my car is no.5 then
won't be seeing that back for a while!!It certainly seems there are far more STi failures than any others. I personally think it's mainly down to fuelling and oils used. There are a fair few tuned UK cars running strong which suggests it's the fuelling/ignition timing of the jap cars, particularly when combined with any mods- so a remap is surely a must for these. I wonder if the oil pump is different on the STi to the UK cars.
I'm another advocate for the Castrol RS 10/60 oil, I use this religiously in my car and engine wise it's never missed a beat in 64,000 miles and that's with oil temps upto 130 degrees at no.3. I believe Barretts run this in their rally car too. The only reason mines in is the head gasket..(too much boost on an my98 uk with composite gaskets but thats another story!!)
I wonder how many failures there have been on cars running this Castrol RS Grade oil??
Nito
ps. Warranty holdings also come up with the aireated oil excuse too I've heard- whatever that is!!
edited-Spelling
[Edited by NITO - 11/13/2002 3:21:49 PM]
, I'm due to be looking at another STi5 tomorrow aswell.
13 November 2002, 03:54 PM
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Yup,
But mines only the head gasket (unless any other damage has been caused but it should be unlikely as it's been caught in the early stages)and I'm resisting the temptation of fitting uprated internals as they've coped fine to date and I'm curious to see how much they can handle with everything set up properly. I'll be fitting uprated gaskets to handle the boost but I'll stop there otherwise it turns into a £4-5K job!!
I wont be taking it any further mods wise for now either. I'm going to stop now and enjoy it for what it is.
Nito
But mines only the head gasket (unless any other damage has been caused but it should be unlikely as it's been caught in the early stages)and I'm resisting the temptation of fitting uprated internals as they've coped fine to date and I'm curious to see how much they can handle with everything set up properly. I'll be fitting uprated gaskets to handle the boost but I'll stop there otherwise it turns into a £4-5K job!!
I wont be taking it any further mods wise for now either. I'm going to stop now and enjoy it for what it is.
Nito
13 November 2002, 04:08 PM
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Just get a ye old faithful UK and mod it. Mine runs at 250 / 260 and keeps up with STi's. Doesn't look as good and less toys, and I would rather have an STi but....
MB
MB
13 November 2002, 04:37 PM
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Well.....What a load of...interesting posts..
First of all, Mineral Oil actually has better lubricating qualities than synthetic, but mineral is not as stable through the vast range of temperatures we run at, and the different weather conditions found in the UK. Also, and most importantly, synthetic oils can handle the extream temps found inside your turbo, monerals cook on the bearings as JF pointed out. That is the main reason for using synthetic and changing it regularly.
Second point, engines dont go bang because you use mineral rather than synth. If the bearings let go, then its an oil supply issue caused by pump failure or similar. Fuelling issues cause detonation which leads to melted pistons/holes in pistons.
Cheers guys....Good luck with the rebuilds.
First of all, Mineral Oil actually has better lubricating qualities than synthetic, but mineral is not as stable through the vast range of temperatures we run at, and the different weather conditions found in the UK. Also, and most importantly, synthetic oils can handle the extream temps found inside your turbo, monerals cook on the bearings as JF pointed out. That is the main reason for using synthetic and changing it regularly.
Second point, engines dont go bang because you use mineral rather than synth. If the bearings let go, then its an oil supply issue caused by pump failure or similar. Fuelling issues cause detonation which leads to melted pistons/holes in pistons.
Cheers guys....Good luck with the rebuilds.
13 November 2002, 05:08 PM
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Foot Tapper
I found out mine was on the brink when my egt's were unusually high, (955 deg on a high speed run instead of 870-900 -pre-turbo) A run on the rolling road then confirmed that the car was running lean. We took it off and cleaned it and put it back on and ran again whereby it was even worse so I had to drive home off boost until it could be replaced.
If you're worried get it checked on a rolling road. The only other way to tell is by looking at the voltage the sensor is putting out. I can't remember what these are now..I think it could have been less than 1.2v from memory on throttle (if the voltage is lower than usual its bad), such a long time ago I don't run one now.
I found out mine was on the brink when my egt's were unusually high, (955 deg on a high speed run instead of 870-900 -pre-turbo) A run on the rolling road then confirmed that the car was running lean. We took it off and cleaned it and put it back on and ran again whereby it was even worse so I had to drive home off boost until it could be replaced.
If you're worried get it checked on a rolling road. The only other way to tell is by looking at the voltage the sensor is putting out. I can't remember what these are now..I think it could have been less than 1.2v from memory on throttle (if the voltage is lower than usual its bad), such a long time ago I don't run one now.
13 November 2002, 06:54 PM
#79
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JUST IN: Very Concerned STi V owner writes -
How do you clean the MAF and with what solvent (it's that fella on the driver side inner wing yes?)
Is the oil pump in the sump (easy to change...) and who does this job & 'ow much?
How much is a Link from say BR Dev's...three noughts for a Spectrum style simple computer?
Hope I sleep tonight...
THANKS!
D
How do you clean the MAF and with what solvent (it's that fella on the driver side inner wing yes?)
Is the oil pump in the sump (easy to change...) and who does this job & 'ow much?
How much is a Link from say BR Dev's...three noughts for a Spectrum style simple computer?
Hope I sleep tonight...
THANKS!
D
13 November 2002, 09:48 PM
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I TO HAVE STI V5 THAT LET GO BIG END NO 3, WAS RUNNING STANDARD EVERTHING BAR AIR FILTER CHANGE 4 PAPER TYPE HAD 2 MAF SENSORS GO £600 FROM GRAHAM GOODE RACING ROBBIN F***KER LAST ONE UNDER WARRENTY ONLY ON SIX MONTHS.CAR RAN ON ESSO SUPER UNLEADED WITH OCTANE BOOSTER 4 TRACK DAYS ONLY DONE 2 B4 BLOW UP. HAD BEEN ROUND AT 160MPH WENT AS SLOWED DOWN BOUT 70-80MPH.NOW RUNIN ON OPTIMAX WITH BOOSTER EVERY TANK FULL STILL HAS FILTER IN THINKIN OF UPRATING NOW FUNDS BAK UP, JUST GOT 3" BACK BOX BUT WANT 2 PUT ON CENTRE SECTION 3" LEAVE CAT ON & INDUCTION KIT OR FILTER REPLACEMENT, ANY THOUGHTS.CHEERS STEVIE.
13 November 2002, 10:34 PM
#81
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"Second point, engines dont go bang because you use mineral rather than synth. If the bearings let go, then its an oil supply issue caused by pump failure or similar."
This is not necessarily true. You're not taking into account the oil "film strength" breaking down.
I would also disagree that mineral oil is a better lubricator than a fully synthetic. Engines are run in with a mineral oil. This is because a mineral oil allows the rings, and bores to bed in together, by allowing some "wear" to occur.
Synthetics don't allow this, but due to the lower friction, tend to glaze the bores instead.
I still think this is a silly argument. If people want to use a cheap mineral oil, fine, go ahead. For those who would take advice from the people who know the engines inside out, use a good quality synthetic.
I know where I'm taking my advice from !!!!
Mark.
This is not necessarily true. You're not taking into account the oil "film strength" breaking down.
I would also disagree that mineral oil is a better lubricator than a fully synthetic. Engines are run in with a mineral oil. This is because a mineral oil allows the rings, and bores to bed in together, by allowing some "wear" to occur.
Synthetics don't allow this, but due to the lower friction, tend to glaze the bores instead.
I still think this is a silly argument. If people want to use a cheap mineral oil, fine, go ahead. For those who would take advice from the people who know the engines inside out, use a good quality synthetic.
I know where I'm taking my advice from !!!!
Mark.
13 November 2002, 10:55 PM
#82
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GULP!!!!!!!
How glad am I that I've kept it as I bought, when I first logged on to Scoobynet, there were the same sort of things being said about the STi4-5, got worried but I've looked after mine as best as I think is poss, Good oil, good fuel, good Oct boost, oil change every 3000, servicing on time etc etc.
As in most things if your gonna change filts etc then surely you have to consider what its gonna effect, it may breathe better but what may that extra breathing alter.
I'm with John F, if your gonna do a job do it properly.
Oh and my two peneth on oil is also coming down on johns side aswell, there's no substitute for experience and from reading his stuff in the past he has plenty,
You can be the most qualified chemist in the world but that does'nt mean you know engines, and we all know how tempremental they can be.
DBM why not just use the best quality oil all the while, surely there's not that much in price difference.
Oh mega, you still interested, b4 you go EVO route, remember, big outlay for a start, need servicing every 4500 and they are supposed to cost more to service aswell not sure how much but well worthchecking out b4 buying.
How glad am I that I've kept it as I bought, when I first logged on to Scoobynet, there were the same sort of things being said about the STi4-5, got worried but I've looked after mine as best as I think is poss, Good oil, good fuel, good Oct boost, oil change every 3000, servicing on time etc etc.
As in most things if your gonna change filts etc then surely you have to consider what its gonna effect, it may breathe better but what may that extra breathing alter.
I'm with John F, if your gonna do a job do it properly.
Oh and my two peneth on oil is also coming down on johns side aswell, there's no substitute for experience and from reading his stuff in the past he has plenty,
You can be the most qualified chemist in the world but that does'nt mean you know engines, and we all know how tempremental they can be.
DBM why not just use the best quality oil all the while, surely there's not that much in price difference.
Oh mega, you still interested, b4 you go EVO route, remember, big outlay for a start, need servicing every 4500 and they are supposed to cost more to service aswell not sure how much but well worthchecking out b4 buying.
13 November 2002, 11:31 PM
#84
Mineral versus Synthetic or Semi synthetic relates to "lubricity" but that is not necessarily a measure of film strength which relates to viscocity index, I'm not an expert on this though.
I'm with John 150% ... use Motul M300V Competition 15w-50 or the Castrol 10-60, I run with the Motul and its benefits are obvious when oil temps and pressure under known conditions are observed. (Castrol too)
Change oil and filter every 3600 miles, only use genuine filter from Subaru as some aftermarket alternatives have been known to cause problems.
If on track change oil and filter both before and after the event ... yup gets expensive but what price the engine.
Good mineral should be used to run the car in as it does allow for the high spots to be knocked off the bearing surfaces, fully synthetic too early will lead to higher oil consumption as the rings don't bed into the bores as well. If the car was used aggressively during that period though the oil would not understand up to the temperatures that could be seen. The turbo is the culprit here, lower quality grades of oil carburise in the tubine housing leading to reduced oil film strength, debris particles in the oil and premature wear/failure, analysis of such oils even after a short period of use would show clear evidence of degradation.
So don't stint on oil or oil changes, small price to pay, but even then still no guarentee that a problem will not occur. Uprating the oil pump is a good precaution but should be coupled with use of best quality oil and servicing procedure.
Finally remember that highest oil temps can occur under conditions of fast cruise with little or no boost ... how many times have we heard .... "just up the motorway slip road and I heard a rattling sound" !!!
I'm with John 150% ... use Motul M300V Competition 15w-50 or the Castrol 10-60, I run with the Motul and its benefits are obvious when oil temps and pressure under known conditions are observed. (Castrol too)
Change oil and filter every 3600 miles, only use genuine filter from Subaru as some aftermarket alternatives have been known to cause problems.
If on track change oil and filter both before and after the event ... yup gets expensive but what price the engine.
Good mineral should be used to run the car in as it does allow for the high spots to be knocked off the bearing surfaces, fully synthetic too early will lead to higher oil consumption as the rings don't bed into the bores as well. If the car was used aggressively during that period though the oil would not understand up to the temperatures that could be seen. The turbo is the culprit here, lower quality grades of oil carburise in the tubine housing leading to reduced oil film strength, debris particles in the oil and premature wear/failure, analysis of such oils even after a short period of use would show clear evidence of degradation.
So don't stint on oil or oil changes, small price to pay, but even then still no guarentee that a problem will not occur. Uprating the oil pump is a good precaution but should be coupled with use of best quality oil and servicing procedure.
Finally remember that highest oil temps can occur under conditions of fast cruise with little or no boost ... how many times have we heard .... "just up the motorway slip road and I heard a rattling sound" !!!
13 November 2002, 11:38 PM
#85
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"just up the motorway slip road and I heard a rattling sound" !!!
Yup! That sounds about right! Well hey, it was a £3-5k lesson in what oil to use i guess.
One other litle gem Phil at Barretts dropped into the conversation, its not unknown apparently for the swarf from the dead bearing to find its way up to the cam bearings and trash them too - and as theres no actual bearing and the cams run direct in the head, it means (you guessed it) new heads.
The bill will be somewhere between the figures above.
Could i just say i'm sure Warranty Holdings are a lovely company and i'm sure they're honest upstanding regular church goers with big sunny smiles and a charity box in reception.
Fingers crossed!
Russ
Yup! That sounds about right! Well hey, it was a £3-5k lesson in what oil to use i guess.
One other litle gem Phil at Barretts dropped into the conversation, its not unknown apparently for the swarf from the dead bearing to find its way up to the cam bearings and trash them too - and as theres no actual bearing and the cams run direct in the head, it means (you guessed it) new heads.
The bill will be somewhere between the figures above.
Could i just say i'm sure Warranty Holdings are a lovely company and i'm sure they're honest upstanding regular church goers with big sunny smiles and a charity box in reception.
Fingers crossed!
Russ
14 November 2002, 12:35 AM
#86
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I'm no oil expert either, but as I understand it, a good quality synthetic oil, is better at keeping it's integrity at the temps our engines reach.
A mineral oil will suffer from decoposition far ealier than a synthetic. Once an oil loses it's integrity, it loses it's viscocity rating, film strength, and lubrication properties.
Once this happens, and you get piston blow by too, allowing fuel to further contaminate the oil.
Bob, I think your findings, when you changed to Motul, are a good example. The Motul reduced blow by to pretty much zero, and you weren't using a cheap oil previously. So there is a massive difference, even between different synthetics.
Mark.
A mineral oil will suffer from decoposition far ealier than a synthetic. Once an oil loses it's integrity, it loses it's viscocity rating, film strength, and lubrication properties.
Once this happens, and you get piston blow by too, allowing fuel to further contaminate the oil.
Bob, I think your findings, when you changed to Motul, are a good example. The Motul reduced blow by to pretty much zero, and you weren't using a cheap oil previously. So there is a massive difference, even between different synthetics.
Mark.
14 November 2002, 08:53 AM
#87
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Dazza, with respect "you can be the bigges oil expert in the world but not know engines"
Is it not the same the other way round? The people I take advice from are probably the leading lube manufacturer, and if you think they dont take cars on track and test them for suitability, well...
They have a BIG testing and development setup for various cars including rally / race cars.
I am no way saying fully synth is bad, in most cases it is batter - but there is nothing wrong with Magnatec! Obviously each to their own, but Id rather take my advice from an expert
MB
Is it not the same the other way round? The people I take advice from are probably the leading lube manufacturer, and if you think they dont take cars on track and test them for suitability, well...
They have a BIG testing and development setup for various cars including rally / race cars.
I am no way saying fully synth is bad, in most cases it is batter - but there is nothing wrong with Magnatec! Obviously each to their own, but Id rather take my advice from an expert
MB
14 November 2002, 10:12 AM
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RT,
On light cruise you are only on very light throttle and it's not uncommon for egt's to be higher in these conditions than on full bore at which point there is much more fuel in the engine hence cooler temps all round. On a light throttle you could potentially be running a lean fuel mixture especially on an sti with an induction kit that hasn't been re-mapped for it.
Rgds
Nito
On light cruise you are only on very light throttle and it's not uncommon for egt's to be higher in these conditions than on full bore at which point there is much more fuel in the engine hence cooler temps all round. On a light throttle you could potentially be running a lean fuel mixture especially on an sti with an induction kit that hasn't been re-mapped for it.
Rgds
Nito
14 November 2002, 10:20 AM
#90
I was at uni when a friend on the course was doing work placement at castrol, testing the magnatec oil. THe legend has it, that after 1000s of hours of testing on engine dynos, the magnatec engine blew 30 seconds after the control engine.
WOrth noting that the ECU cuts fuel on overrun to improve economy, so lifting suddenly and completely after a long run is perhaps not such a good idea. Might go very lean for a split second if there was plenty of fuel coming in prior to the cut.
Paul
WOrth noting that the ECU cuts fuel on overrun to improve economy, so lifting suddenly and completely after a long run is perhaps not such a good idea. Might go very lean for a split second if there was plenty of fuel coming in prior to the cut.
Paul