'Nother Sti goes BANG!
15 November 2002, 01:42 AM
#92
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I see your point DBM, and dont dissagree that theese guys test the oils to death and know everything about them.
However, surely someone who has worked with the boxer engine over many years and throughout it's evoloution while having to get as much bhp from it as possible still achieving max reliability will have better knowledge of what oil will work best, than say an oil corp that has to produce an oil that will works best as possible over a variety of engines. I dont know how these companies test oils in engines etc but I would be amazed if they took every variant of engine and made sure the oil was the best it could possibly be for each engine. I should image that they have a set tolerance that the oil has to work within in each of its possible applications.
I would image that if an oil company developed a lube for each engine sepperatly then we would probably get even more horses out of our mota's, but pay 200quid for a couple of litres.
A good example of this is Castol, who this year developed an oil specifically for the Honda VTR world superbike Colin Edwards rode to victory. First half of the season the bike just never had the same power as the Ducatis, once they developed the oil however specifically for the V-Twin it gave a good enough increase about 4 - 5bhp i think making it competative to race the Ducatis. Put this oil in the Ducati and may have siezed half way through a race.
Bet you cant buy this oil over the counter though.
I think I've explained as best as poss my point of view and am interested in your knowledge of the oil industry as I dont claim to be the most knowledgeable and can only learn from you guys who know better.
Cheers much apprieciated. dazza
[Edited by dazzaTypeR - 11/15/2002 1:47:55 AM]
[Edited by dazzaTypeR - 11/15/2002 1:49:48 AM]
However, surely someone who has worked with the boxer engine over many years and throughout it's evoloution while having to get as much bhp from it as possible still achieving max reliability will have better knowledge of what oil will work best, than say an oil corp that has to produce an oil that will works best as possible over a variety of engines. I dont know how these companies test oils in engines etc but I would be amazed if they took every variant of engine and made sure the oil was the best it could possibly be for each engine. I should image that they have a set tolerance that the oil has to work within in each of its possible applications.
I would image that if an oil company developed a lube for each engine sepperatly then we would probably get even more horses out of our mota's, but pay 200quid for a couple of litres.
A good example of this is Castol, who this year developed an oil specifically for the Honda VTR world superbike Colin Edwards rode to victory. First half of the season the bike just never had the same power as the Ducatis, once they developed the oil however specifically for the V-Twin it gave a good enough increase about 4 - 5bhp i think making it competative to race the Ducatis. Put this oil in the Ducati and may have siezed half way through a race.
Bet you cant buy this oil over the counter though.
I think I've explained as best as poss my point of view and am interested in your knowledge of the oil industry as I dont claim to be the most knowledgeable and can only learn from you guys who know better.
Cheers much apprieciated. dazza
[Edited by dazzaTypeR - 11/15/2002 1:47:55 AM]
[Edited by dazzaTypeR - 11/15/2002 1:49:48 AM]
15 November 2002, 09:32 AM
#94
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John,
Dont STI-V RA's have the open deck block?
I thought Closed Deck Block was only up to STI-3's?
Dont STI-V RA's have the open deck block?
I thought Closed Deck Block was only up to STI-3's?
15 November 2002, 09:57 AM
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Interesting thread. I just wondered how many Legacy Turbos have had engine failures as I've not heard of one once. It does seem to be certain variants that are more likley to fail so maybe its not a fault purely with the internal design of the engine but more around the setup of each engine. The mods making the engine more likely to move out of a safe range of settings.
Good thread so far
AllanB
Good thread so far
AllanB
15 November 2002, 01:01 PM
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Had an STi V5 for 2 years. Absolutely brilliant in every department. Apart from servicing and pads no costs.
I have left the air/oil filter all standard. Always use Mobil motorsport and change every 6K miles. Never really need to thrash the car as I can easily take care of most cars with 70%. Ok taking on heavily modded Cossies and Evos needs 95 % effort.
Surprises me when I see some people redline so often. The car has so much torque and is so light it doesn't need to be driven like a Vtec.
Most blow u pcases must be bad luck. Would be good for some accurate analysis to be done on who has suffered and with which Stis.
Don't be taken in by the mass anti import hysteria out there.
They don't want u to save money.
I have left the air/oil filter all standard. Always use Mobil motorsport and change every 6K miles. Never really need to thrash the car as I can easily take care of most cars with 70%. Ok taking on heavily modded Cossies and Evos needs 95 % effort.
Surprises me when I see some people redline so often. The car has so much torque and is so light it doesn't need to be driven like a Vtec.
Most blow u pcases must be bad luck. Would be good for some accurate analysis to be done on who has suffered and with which Stis.
Don't be taken in by the mass anti import hysteria out there.
They don't want u to save money.
15 November 2002, 10:19 PM
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Importsti
2 years? You did the right thing, it seems to be 28-30k and/or 2 and a half years when they let go - looking at the things folks on here have posted, plus my friends and my own experience.
Like you, i don't thrash the nuts off mine by any means. In fact, my one criticism of an Sti RA is that it's TOO fast to exploit on the road! Which kind of reduces the pleasure somewhat. But, the short gearing, torquey engine means its really not neccessary to use all the revs.
Having said that, as most seem to have failed whilst slowing down from motorway speed, teh RA would probably be more prone to the failure on the basis its revving harder at motor way speeds.
C'est la vie.
Russ
2 years? You did the right thing, it seems to be 28-30k and/or 2 and a half years when they let go - looking at the things folks on here have posted, plus my friends and my own experience.
Like you, i don't thrash the nuts off mine by any means. In fact, my one criticism of an Sti RA is that it's TOO fast to exploit on the road! Which kind of reduces the pleasure somewhat. But, the short gearing, torquey engine means its really not neccessary to use all the revs.
Having said that, as most seem to have failed whilst slowing down from motorway speed, teh RA would probably be more prone to the failure on the basis its revving harder at motor way speeds.
C'est la vie.
Russ
15 November 2002, 11:19 PM
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Hey All,
I would apprecate some comments on this one; especially you JohnF !
I have an STi 5 Type R, after 19,000 miles, yes, 19k, the engine went on me, I had owned the car just over 4 weeks and...... Bang bang bang...... luckily, I was about 2 minutes from Warrender/RC Developments when it went, so I popped in to find out what the problem was, as I approached the carpark, pulled in, and asked the guys what they thought the problem was; the reply was; Yep, u guessed it.......... big end no3 !!
So I awaited the arrival of the RAC, thoroughly pi**ed off with my new car...... (my whole idea of getting the scoob was to get away from modding cars to a high extent for power etc..... so the scoob was the perfect choice, fast, involving, and looks gorgeous as standard)
As I approached the garage where I bought it, I asked to speak to the manager, explained the situation and they agreed it was a warranty job....... thank god too, as I nearly bought it without one to save money ! I mean, who'd think a 2 year old car would go seriously wrong ?? ..... Anyway, RC Developments had it booked in for the work, but couldn't do it for over a month, I wanted it done quicker..... so after asking them to source another garage, they tried Subaru, Prodrive.... DEMON TWEEKS ???? Nobody could do it any quicker, so I took it upon myself to source an alternative garage.... along came Graham Goode...... excellent guys.....gave me info, advice.... so the car went down there. In the weeks I was waiting (which turned into 2 months in the end) I tried to find out the initial problem, I talked to Subaru, RC Developments, Scoobynet, Torque Developments, TDI Engineering, Power Engineering........ etc etc... you get the idea ! Anyway, I got the car back but not without problem...... the warranty REFUSED to pay out for the work, so to release my car, the garage had to pay out....... get this.... over £6000 !!!
I went to collect my car, with a tape recorder in my pocket, expecting them to ask me for some money, to which my reply after throwing the keys at him would have been; "See you in Court" !!
But no, nothing was asked for, I was well surprised, especially after all the trouble I'd had !!!
Anyway, i've been running it in now for just over 600 miles at under 3500rpm and its torture ! But i'll admit, I'm getting used to driving it sensibly now, but come on, its a rally car, its been designed to go over 3500rpm so why should I have to treat it with kid gloves ? My initial thought when I got it back was to sell it, but more recently, I have seen sence (or maybe I'm blinded again to having a gorgeous car) so why should I sell it and effectively let sonebody else have what is effectively a BRAND NEW engine; including the uprated Oil Pump that Graham Goode believe to be the weakness sitting at the beginning of the big end no3 problem.
So where do I lie now ? My plan it to get an exhaust after the run in period, I think i'm gonna get a H&S Afterburner, but a personalised varience directly from them (H&S) with downpipe, and a 4.5 - 5 inch tailpipe ! and a HKS/Blitz air filter ! That will be the limit to my mods........ been there, done that in the highly moddin game and not doin it again, unless my numbers come up on saturday
If I do these mods and I probably will, you guys are recommending a remap ?? Whats the reason for this and where do I get it done ? More importantly, whats it gonna cost me ? And please...... nobody say demon tweeks...... !!!
If modding an STI V5 is in a common opinion amongst you guys, then I think I will almost definately sell it !!
So what am I gonna do this weekend;
Well, I think Trading Standards might like to hear about what our Mr Engineer said about my car.... apparently, I thrashed thr nitx off it, to which I take highly offensive and I might ever use it if this goes further, but how in Gods name, can a Warranty engineer, now better than; Subaru, Prodrive, RC Developments, GG, TDI, etc etc etc........
This is a common problem and theres no getting away from the fact !
Although I didnt have to pay out for anything (apart from a smashed tail-light and scratched rear bumper which isn't being admitted to that isn't the point, the fact is, I paid for a warranty and I expect my car to be covered, infact, I am close to driving down there and demanding to speak to the MD and unless they pay up, whether it be to the garage, or to give me some compensation for the aggrivation they caused, I think I am well within my rights to ask for my money back..... dont you guys agree ?
One things for sure though, if I sell it, i'm not getting another performance car, i'm at the end of my teather ! Diesel will be the way to go next !! :P (& probably a bike or something toywise)
Anyway, RANT OVER !!
Coments; Views greatly apprecaited !!
Scott
STi v5 Type R
I would apprecate some comments on this one; especially you JohnF !
I have an STi 5 Type R, after 19,000 miles, yes, 19k, the engine went on me, I had owned the car just over 4 weeks and...... Bang bang bang...... luckily, I was about 2 minutes from Warrender/RC Developments when it went, so I popped in to find out what the problem was, as I approached the carpark, pulled in, and asked the guys what they thought the problem was; the reply was; Yep, u guessed it.......... big end no3 !!
So I awaited the arrival of the RAC, thoroughly pi**ed off with my new car...... (my whole idea of getting the scoob was to get away from modding cars to a high extent for power etc..... so the scoob was the perfect choice, fast, involving, and looks gorgeous as standard)
As I approached the garage where I bought it, I asked to speak to the manager, explained the situation and they agreed it was a warranty job....... thank god too, as I nearly bought it without one to save money ! I mean, who'd think a 2 year old car would go seriously wrong ?? ..... Anyway, RC Developments had it booked in for the work, but couldn't do it for over a month, I wanted it done quicker..... so after asking them to source another garage, they tried Subaru, Prodrive.... DEMON TWEEKS ???? Nobody could do it any quicker, so I took it upon myself to source an alternative garage.... along came Graham Goode...... excellent guys.....gave me info, advice.... so the car went down there. In the weeks I was waiting (which turned into 2 months in the end) I tried to find out the initial problem, I talked to Subaru, RC Developments, Scoobynet, Torque Developments, TDI Engineering, Power Engineering........ etc etc... you get the idea ! Anyway, I got the car back but not without problem...... the warranty REFUSED to pay out for the work, so to release my car, the garage had to pay out....... get this.... over £6000 !!!
I went to collect my car, with a tape recorder in my pocket, expecting them to ask me for some money, to which my reply after throwing the keys at him would have been; "See you in Court" !!
But no, nothing was asked for, I was well surprised, especially after all the trouble I'd had !!!
Anyway, i've been running it in now for just over 600 miles at under 3500rpm and its torture ! But i'll admit, I'm getting used to driving it sensibly now, but come on, its a rally car, its been designed to go over 3500rpm so why should I have to treat it with kid gloves ? My initial thought when I got it back was to sell it, but more recently, I have seen sence (or maybe I'm blinded again to having a gorgeous car) so why should I sell it and effectively let sonebody else have what is effectively a BRAND NEW engine; including the uprated Oil Pump that Graham Goode believe to be the weakness sitting at the beginning of the big end no3 problem.
So where do I lie now ? My plan it to get an exhaust after the run in period, I think i'm gonna get a H&S Afterburner, but a personalised varience directly from them (H&S) with downpipe, and a 4.5 - 5 inch tailpipe ! and a HKS/Blitz air filter ! That will be the limit to my mods........ been there, done that in the highly moddin game and not doin it again, unless my numbers come up on saturday
If I do these mods and I probably will, you guys are recommending a remap ?? Whats the reason for this and where do I get it done ? More importantly, whats it gonna cost me ? And please...... nobody say demon tweeks...... !!!
If modding an STI V5 is in a common opinion amongst you guys, then I think I will almost definately sell it !!
So what am I gonna do this weekend;
Well, I think Trading Standards might like to hear about what our Mr Engineer said about my car.... apparently, I thrashed thr nitx off it, to which I take highly offensive and I might ever use it if this goes further, but how in Gods name, can a Warranty engineer, now better than; Subaru, Prodrive, RC Developments, GG, TDI, etc etc etc........
This is a common problem and theres no getting away from the fact !
Although I didnt have to pay out for anything (apart from a smashed tail-light and scratched rear bumper which isn't being admitted to
that isn't the point, the fact is, I paid for a warranty and I expect my car to be covered, infact, I am close to driving down there and demanding to speak to the MD and unless they pay up, whether it be to the garage, or to give me some compensation for the aggrivation they caused, I think I am well within my rights to ask for my money back..... dont you guys agree ?One things for sure though, if I sell it, i'm not getting another performance car, i'm at the end of my teather ! Diesel will be the way to go next !! :P
(& probably a bike or something toywise)Anyway, RANT OVER !!
Coments; Views greatly apprecaited !!
Scott
STi v5 Type R
17 November 2002, 01:22 PM
#106
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Warranty Holdings:
I had a problem with my clutch, at 10,000 miles. I spoke the WH, who initially agreed the clutch would be covered.
It was removed from the car, and the garage spoke to WH, confirming it was faulty. WH then stated that if it was "faulty", at 10,000 miles, it was a "manufacturing" problem, and there was no cover.
I personally spoke to the Customer Services Manager, telling him that having read through the "terms & conditions", there appeared to be a disclaimer for EVERY eventuality, and under what circumstances a claim would be accepted. He couldn't give me an answer !!!
I then stated a "product being fit for it's intended use", and was given a FULL premium refund !!!!
I suggest that anyone having a claim refused does the same thing. I know this won't solve the repair problem, but at least it will contribute towards the costs.
I won't post my personal feelings about the integrity of WH, because it would certainly get deleted, but, if you check their terms & conditions, they do have a clause that allows them to refuse EVERY type of claim !
Mark.
I had a problem with my clutch, at 10,000 miles. I spoke the WH, who initially agreed the clutch would be covered.
It was removed from the car, and the garage spoke to WH, confirming it was faulty. WH then stated that if it was "faulty", at 10,000 miles, it was a "manufacturing" problem, and there was no cover.
I personally spoke to the Customer Services Manager, telling him that having read through the "terms & conditions", there appeared to be a disclaimer for EVERY eventuality, and under what circumstances a claim would be accepted. He couldn't give me an answer !!!
I then stated a "product being fit for it's intended use", and was given a FULL premium refund !!!!
I suggest that anyone having a claim refused does the same thing. I know this won't solve the repair problem, but at least it will contribute towards the costs.
I won't post my personal feelings about the integrity of WH, because it would certainly get deleted, but, if you check their terms & conditions, they do have a clause that allows them to refuse EVERY type of claim !
Mark.
17 November 2002, 01:31 PM
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May not be gospel but; I have been told by a uk dealer that alot of P1's are goin' bang too, not just sti's. They inform me that the block in my99 cars is the weak point, especially once its blown once (mine due to afm) and that the materials used in castings of replacement blocks is different. Not sure the filter and or exaust is a sure reason to blow the motor. Speaking from experience here as my sti5 went bang twice, std exaust and air filter they changed the block now no problems yet....
My previous car was a uk MY99 with a k&n panel filter and ss back box. That one also went bang at 36k, hmmm.
And sorry to go on but before I forget, who was after sti5 pistons? Ive got three in good nick, blown one is an ashtray!
My previous car was a uk MY99 with a k&n panel filter and ss back box. That one also went bang at 36k, hmmm.
And sorry to go on but before I forget, who was after sti5 pistons? Ive got three in good nick, blown one is an ashtray!
Sounds like a job for 'Watchdog' ??
17 November 2002, 04:48 PM
#109
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Yep, I'll agree with that one !
Shall we all contribute together and send some letters to Warranty Holdings, and not only get Watchdog involved, but TRADING STANDARDS too !!!!!!!!!
Scott
Shall we all contribute together and send some letters to Warranty Holdings, and not only get Watchdog involved, but TRADING STANDARDS too !!!!!!!!!
Scott
18 November 2002, 12:46 AM
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I was thinking over the weekend about this. For those "fast cruise then slow down then BANG!" engine failures, what was the maximum oil temperature experienced?
I would think that the car would need to be on slight boost to maintain 100-120mph. It is likely that such a prolonged condition on high boost may lead to oil temperatures upwards of 120degC, esp so if there is no additional oil cooler installed.
I am still fairly convinced that bottom end failures are largely due to lubrication system failure. Of course, running lean etc does lead to excessively high temperatures which may overheat the oil too...
Thoughts?
I would think that the car would need to be on slight boost to maintain 100-120mph. It is likely that such a prolonged condition on high boost may lead to oil temperatures upwards of 120degC, esp so if there is no additional oil cooler installed.
I am still fairly convinced that bottom end failures are largely due to lubrication system failure. Of course, running lean etc does lead to excessively high temperatures which may overheat the oil too...
Thoughts?
18 November 2002, 09:59 AM
#111
Scooby Regular
Hmmm, sounds like the end of the world 
I've got a P1, standard exhaust with Prodrive backbox.
Filter has been changed for a K&N panel.
DV is a Forge recirc jobber.
Everything else is standard.
Run on Optimax with NF.
Oil is Motul 15/50.
Think I've done/haven't done most things that will prevent the engine going bang
Only mods I'm considering are an uprated oil pump and possibly a JB remap.
Question is then how much do the oil pumps cost to fit? Is it a big job? I see GGR charge about £170+vat for the pump itself...
I've got a P1, standard exhaust with Prodrive backbox.
Filter has been changed for a K&N panel.
DV is a Forge recirc jobber.
Everything else is standard.
Run on Optimax with NF.
Oil is Motul 15/50.
Think I've done/haven't done most things that will prevent the engine going bang
Only mods I'm considering are an uprated oil pump and possibly a JB remap.
Question is then how much do the oil pumps cost to fit? Is it a big job? I see GGR charge about £170+vat for the pump itself...
19 November 2002, 12:20 PM
#112
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The GTP competition here in Aus has a number of V6 and V7 STIs kicking around. I've spoken to one of the service managers and he is adament that 10W40 wasn't the answer (some scoring of the cylinder walls).
The answer?
Motul 15W50.
The answer?
Motul 15W50.
19 November 2002, 09:49 PM
#116
Wallace and Gromit won't have to go to the moon for cheese, they just have to look under the bonnet of a Subaru?
Seriously though, you can blame the oil if you like but if the quality or suitability of materials is marginal or the design is faulted, it could go bang!
Is there anyone out there who is prepared to say, hand on heart, that the mechanical integrity of the Subaru driveline is really up to it? A lot of people don't think it is!
JohnD
Seriously though, you can blame the oil if you like but if the quality or suitability of materials is marginal or the design is faulted, it could go bang!
Is there anyone out there who is prepared to say, hand on heart, that the mechanical integrity of the Subaru driveline is really up to it? A lot of people don't think it is!
JohnD
19 November 2002, 11:41 PM
#118
Nice to see this is still going strong, i have been away for a week and a bit in my STi5 RA V-Ltd including a trip to the nurburgring (completed 15 laps flat out, each lap is 13.5 miles long) and a week on the NetworkQ plus runs up and down the M1/M6 mid week, i completeted over 3000 miles in the last week taking my car over the 40,000 miles mark, it had 25K on it when i bought it in april this year.
I put fresh Castrol RS 10/60 the day before i went away, i always use genuine subaru oil filters.
It's good to see Bob Rawle post here, if you do a ssearch through old drivetrain topics you will see this debated to death with regards to oil.
The post that was asking about mods to do after the GG rebuild, dont use an aftermarket air filter on a P1/STi5/6 unless you have a link or similar installed that doesnt use the MAF. If you decat the car get it remapped. It's pretty simple advice.
I see DBM is still saying i am talking crap about the oils, nice to see he is consistent, if nothing else.
LOL
I put fresh Castrol RS 10/60 the day before i went away, i always use genuine subaru oil filters.
It's good to see Bob Rawle post here, if you do a ssearch through old drivetrain topics you will see this debated to death with regards to oil.
The post that was asking about mods to do after the GG rebuild, dont use an aftermarket air filter on a P1/STi5/6 unless you have a link or similar installed that doesnt use the MAF. If you decat the car get it remapped. It's pretty simple advice.
I see DBM is still saying i am talking crap about the oils, nice to see he is consistent, if nothing else.
LOL
20 November 2002, 01:30 AM
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I think we need to look at the bigger picture in relation to engine failures.
As well as pistons, rods and numerous other items, big end bearings take a substantial pounding everytime your car detonates, and if its an import it will det. Don't rely on the ecu and knock correction to save you as its an 'after-event' operation.
When bearings pickup troughs/scars are created across the bearing faces, now obviously with the oil being under pressure its going to take the path of least resistance - the troughs, which leads to the undamaged bearing surface being proportionally 'starved' of oil and the high probability of reduced oil pressure. A bit of a vicious circle to say the least.
My V5 with decat would det very badly on wide open throttle. This was on Optimax and Millers OB and monitored with det cans. For a standard STi you need a minimum of 97ron & a good octane booster. An STi with a decat does need a remap IMHO, and as others have suggested use a good quality thick oil and change it as often as you can.
John, 200 miles flat out around the Nurburgring is a fine way of getting your point across
As well as pistons, rods and numerous other items, big end bearings take a substantial pounding everytime your car detonates, and if its an import it will det. Don't rely on the ecu and knock correction to save you as its an 'after-event' operation.
When bearings pickup troughs/scars are created across the bearing faces, now obviously with the oil being under pressure its going to take the path of least resistance - the troughs, which leads to the undamaged bearing surface being proportionally 'starved' of oil and the high probability of reduced oil pressure. A bit of a vicious circle to say the least.
My V5 with decat would det very badly on wide open throttle. This was on Optimax and Millers OB and monitored with det cans. For a standard STi you need a minimum of 97ron & a good octane booster. An STi with a decat does need a remap IMHO, and as others have suggested use a good quality thick oil and change it as often as you can.
John, 200 miles flat out around the Nurburgring is a fine way of getting your point across
21 November 2002, 01:01 AM
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JOHNF !!
Cheers for the info;
But what do you mean by; "unless you have a link or similar installed that doesnt use the MAF."
>>If you decat the car get it remapped. It's pretty simple advice.
I spoke to RC Developments and they said not to waste money on a remap just on a Cat Back System ! Get it remapped once the Airfilter has been fitted !! Sounded resonable to me !!
Thanks Again !!
Cheers for the info;
But what do you mean by; "unless you have a link or similar installed that doesnt use the MAF."
>>If you decat the car get it remapped. It's pretty simple advice.
I spoke to RC Developments and they said not to waste money on a remap just on a Cat Back System ! Get it remapped once the Airfilter has been fitted !! Sounded resonable to me !!
Thanks Again !!