VERY IMPORTANT - ALL please read
10 October 2001, 08:22 AM
#31
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Some interesting points raised here, but one thing has surprised me, the lack of people admitting that this thing goes on, or is just meets that i attend?
I've been to quiet a few meets and have to say i can't recall one that HASN'T had at least one moment of madness either before, during or after the 'meet'. (actually our convoy up to trax was the best behaved i've ever been in).
Two of the subaru meets i have attended resulted in at least 3 rta's to my knowledge.
As a result of this i stopped attending many meets and stuck to local ones only, because i know that if something flies past me the urge to give chase is extremely high and from seeing the reactions of others i'm not alone in that reaction.
However something does need to be done as our meets will start to generate interest from outside our group due to the nature of the drives, this is why police break up groups of cruises, bikers etc, etc as the results are the same.
I used to get really annoyed when out on my bike on a sunday morning during the local shops 'ride out' that the police would cordon off the whole village and spot check every bike religiously.I used to think they were picking on us.
However it didnt take long to realise this was done to basically deter people from attending as the ride out had basically turned into a south coast road race with a minimum of at least one 'off' a week.
So lets make an effort to ensure things are kept on a fairly sensible track before the events start happening with Subaru's as well as bikes.
I've been to quiet a few meets and have to say i can't recall one that HASN'T had at least one moment of madness either before, during or after the 'meet'. (actually our convoy up to trax was the best behaved i've ever been in).
Two of the subaru meets i have attended resulted in at least 3 rta's to my knowledge.
As a result of this i stopped attending many meets and stuck to local ones only, because i know that if something flies past me the urge to give chase is extremely high and from seeing the reactions of others i'm not alone in that reaction.
However something does need to be done as our meets will start to generate interest from outside our group due to the nature of the drives, this is why police break up groups of cruises, bikers etc, etc as the results are the same.
I used to get really annoyed when out on my bike on a sunday morning during the local shops 'ride out' that the police would cordon off the whole village and spot check every bike religiously.I used to think they were picking on us.
However it didnt take long to realise this was done to basically deter people from attending as the ride out had basically turned into a south coast road race with a minimum of at least one 'off' a week.
So lets make an effort to ensure things are kept on a fairly sensible track before the events start happening with Subaru's as well as bikes.
10 October 2001, 08:37 AM
#32
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Being an organiser of some of these meets and drives I have to admit the last one we did got a bit hairy.
I am not going to say more than that but Scooby drivers ended up being used as a scape goat by an idiot in a lorry.
You will be putting yourself at risk, more importantly others and I guarantee at the very least you will get the attention of the law.
I can't echo every sensible comment on here enough.
Keep it safe, keep it real, increase the Horses, play on track.
Nice
I am not going to say more than that but Scooby drivers ended up being used as a scape goat by an idiot in a lorry.
You will be putting yourself at risk, more importantly others and I guarantee at the very least you will get the attention of the law.
I can't echo every sensible comment on here enough.
Keep it safe, keep it real, increase the Horses, play on track.
Nice
10 October 2001, 09:28 AM
#33
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Just some thoughts I had last night...
We can follow Simon's wishes and not plan any driving meets on the BBS. Meets can quite easily be arranged on e-mail or on many of the existing regional Yahoo Groups that I know exist. Effectively, we can turn a blind eye and pretend it doesn't happen.
Alternatively, we can try to do things properly. As Charlie Whiskey mentioned, he's already got some 'rules' put together.
Let's name and shame the muppets who can't control the red mist. If they turn up at another run, they can be asked to leave or not given the route.
Say something happened on a meet organised off board. It will only take one tabloid to start sniffing around and IMHO ScoobyNet / SIDC will be implicated in the accident, even if the meet was nothing to do with them. IMHO, tabloids are only interested a juicy storey to sell papers.
It seems a shame a minority have to spoil it for the rest.
ChrisB.
We can follow Simon's wishes and not plan any driving meets on the BBS. Meets can quite easily be arranged on e-mail or on many of the existing regional Yahoo Groups that I know exist. Effectively, we can turn a blind eye and pretend it doesn't happen.
Alternatively, we can try to do things properly. As Charlie Whiskey mentioned, he's already got some 'rules' put together.
Let's name and shame the muppets who can't control the red mist. If they turn up at another run, they can be asked to leave or not given the route.
Say something happened on a meet organised off board. It will only take one tabloid to start sniffing around and IMHO ScoobyNet / SIDC will be implicated in the accident, even if the meet was nothing to do with them. IMHO, tabloids are only interested a juicy storey to sell papers.
It seems a shame a minority have to spoil it for the rest.
ChrisB.
10 October 2001, 10:16 AM
#34
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You have all voiced the reason why I haven't organised a meet for some time - I am worried that someone will have an accident on the drive and cause damage to cars, or injuries or worse. Its not the kind of responsibility I want.
I have organised a great many meets in the past, most with a group drive of some sort. These take a lot of work to organise, but at the end of the day, no-one can control the way others drive. I have the utmost respect for MTR and others like him, who do a superb job of organising these events, but they must wrestle with their consciences when they see or hear about someone driving inconsiderately or beyond their abilities.
The problem is, these types of events are easily the most popular amongst the Scooby community - good company, good routes and all for the cost of a tank of petrol.
WHAT WE NEED IS A POPULAR ALTERNATIVE. A meet where people just turn up, look at cars and have a chat, then go home will not attract the numbers that we have seen in the past. A treasure hunt type event might be worth thinking about, but requires much work with routes, clues etc. Cars could be set off one at a time, thus avoiding the 'convoy' problems. Whaddya think ?
We as a group need to come up not only with guidelines, but with viable and popular events that do not endanger people or property, but are still enjoyable and cost little. Many of us love trackdays but at £100 a pop, how many can you go to ?
Ideas please ?
Tony
I have organised a great many meets in the past, most with a group drive of some sort. These take a lot of work to organise, but at the end of the day, no-one can control the way others drive. I have the utmost respect for MTR and others like him, who do a superb job of organising these events, but they must wrestle with their consciences when they see or hear about someone driving inconsiderately or beyond their abilities.
The problem is, these types of events are easily the most popular amongst the Scooby community - good company, good routes and all for the cost of a tank of petrol.
WHAT WE NEED IS A POPULAR ALTERNATIVE. A meet where people just turn up, look at cars and have a chat, then go home will not attract the numbers that we have seen in the past. A treasure hunt type event might be worth thinking about, but requires much work with routes, clues etc. Cars could be set off one at a time, thus avoiding the 'convoy' problems. Whaddya think ?
We as a group need to come up not only with guidelines, but with viable and popular events that do not endanger people or property, but are still enjoyable and cost little. Many of us love trackdays but at £100 a pop, how many can you go to ?
Ideas please ?
Tony
10 October 2001, 10:21 AM
#35
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This came about from an email the SIDC received, from a group of cyclists, one of whom was very nearly hit and killed on the York meet.
The people involved thought that about 20 cars went through the junction, all coming over the brow at a speed that would have been fatal had there been something blocking the road.
The matter is being reported to North Yorkshire Police who will, no doubt, require statements from the organisor and all participants.
The SIDC have allowed group drives, but there are strict conditions. Never more than 4 cars and driven at a pace that complies with the RTA and could not bring the SIDC into disrepute. These are more like tours, than cross country blasts. Any such activity has to receive the approval of the SIDC Committee and all participants sign a disclaimer in which they agree to comply with all conditions listed and drive in a manner which up holds the club's good name.
With regard to the Porsche incident, some years ago, not only was the driver who hit the member of the public sentenced, but so was the driver he was accused of racing with.
As has been said above, if you want to drive fast, get on a track day. We organise them for this very reason.
[This message has been edited by Pete Croney (edited 11 October 2001).]
The people involved thought that about 20 cars went through the junction, all coming over the brow at a speed that would have been fatal had there been something blocking the road.
The matter is being reported to North Yorkshire Police who will, no doubt, require statements from the organisor and all participants.
The SIDC have allowed group drives, but there are strict conditions. Never more than 4 cars and driven at a pace that complies with the RTA and could not bring the SIDC into disrepute. These are more like tours, than cross country blasts. Any such activity has to receive the approval of the SIDC Committee and all participants sign a disclaimer in which they agree to comply with all conditions listed and drive in a manner which up holds the club's good name.
With regard to the Porsche incident, some years ago, not only was the driver who hit the member of the public sentenced, but so was the driver he was accused of racing with.
As has been said above, if you want to drive fast, get on a track day. We organise them for this very reason.
[This message has been edited by Pete Croney (edited 11 October 2001).]
10 October 2001, 10:39 AM
#36
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Tony
Mark Coleman has organised just such an event for SIDC members, for the start of November.
It is a navigational scatter, being run under an MSA permit. As you have said, the organisation is massive. The MSA are helping and local Police will be involved with route approval.
If you are a SIDC member and want to participate, details can be found at
Mark Coleman has organised just such an event for SIDC members, for the start of November.
It is a navigational scatter, being run under an MSA permit. As you have said, the organisation is massive. The MSA are helping and local Police will be involved with route approval.
If you are a SIDC member and want to participate, details can be found at
10 October 2001, 11:49 AM
#38
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As I have co-organized a few meets in Belgium, I would like to add my views on this ...
This is an *incredibly* difficult topic, and I hope to see an alternative emerge at the end, like Tony suggests ...
When the meets we did were still "small" (unpopular), it was doable to keep things in hand, mostly because we had a responsible bunch and it was all new to us.
Meets got bigger however, and the organizers started to wonder about safety, legal issues, insurance ... the more we thought about it, less fun it became. The consequences of an accident would be devastating.
Meets got bigger still, we asked the people so sign a weaver that the organizers were not responsible for any incidents (legally that would never hold, I know), and with reminders to drive strictly within the legal limits. We also opted for a "treasure hunt" type of organization (lots of work indeed).
Soon people became bored with those hunts, just looked where the end point was, and started trashing their cars towards the finish, never mind the treasure hunt. It was there & then we decided to stop organizing these meets.
We now organize a little meet from time to time via email, invitation style only. Sounds snobby, but this way we *know* who is attenting, it's less of a hassle, and a bit safer. We lay out a touristic route, have lots of stops, and try to end up in a nice restaurant so we have the time to talk about more than dump valves
We encourage people to take their partners/kids.
Still, even at those closed meets I have experienced myself how difficult it sometimes is NOT to go beyond the safe limits.
Real life example:
You lead, normal speeds, oops, slow non convoy driver in front of you. You overtake safely, wait for the rest, first one catches up, drives a bit too close to your bumper, so you want to make space for the rest and accelerate, driver behind thinks you want to give it a bit of stick. People behind don't want to loose the convoy out of sight, and start to overtike where normally they wouldn't ... etc ... a good example of 10 "responsible" people (me included) going way faster than we intented. We did NOT WANT to, but the nature of a group drive made it happen anyway.
This to say it does not have to be "one loony" spoiling it for others. I think what SDB is saying is that the fact of driving in a group *will* at some point induce a few hairy moments.
It is a half miracle that no "serious" accidents have happened (that I know of) during all these meets ...
The alternatives that are planned from time to time (like the Scoobynet BBS, or the Vroemdag in Zolder yesterday in Belgium) however seem to not appeal to a lot of people though.
That amazes me to no end.
Sure, there is always "the distance" problem (that's why local meets are probably so popular), but we like driving our cars, so it shouldn't be *that* much of a problem.
What about things like courses/handling tests on private airfields. I'm sure there are a few around the UK, and you can have a lot of fun, social banter, and skill improvement in a safe matter. One could imagine designing a "format" for those meets. Call them the Scoobynet LOOS courses or whatever. Sort out insurance for those days.
I'm not saying I'm against the group drive meets ... I enjoyed the first few I did very much, met a lot of people, made the Scooby owning experience really worth it etc etc... but in hindsight I'm glad I don't really participate anymore, and that nothing major happened.
Another thought ... SIDC track days are very popular, but don't appeal to the people who just don't want to take the risk of damaging their car on track ... is it worth while thinking of some side animation so that you can "attend track days without having to go on track" ? I know, lots of work, but it may be worth while. Wax wizzard demo, cheap "dentmaster" facility ... it can work, the Dutch club organized 2 of those, and they were very well atttended.
Maybe these meets will cost a bit more to the participants ... but just imagine what it could cost if a major accident will happen It would be an incredible blow to the community.
Theo
This is an *incredibly* difficult topic, and I hope to see an alternative emerge at the end, like Tony suggests ...
When the meets we did were still "small" (unpopular), it was doable to keep things in hand, mostly because we had a responsible bunch and it was all new to us.
Meets got bigger however, and the organizers started to wonder about safety, legal issues, insurance ... the more we thought about it, less fun it became. The consequences of an accident would be devastating.
Meets got bigger still, we asked the people so sign a weaver that the organizers were not responsible for any incidents (legally that would never hold, I know), and with reminders to drive strictly within the legal limits. We also opted for a "treasure hunt" type of organization (lots of work indeed).
Soon people became bored with those hunts, just looked where the end point was, and started trashing their cars towards the finish, never mind the treasure hunt. It was there & then we decided to stop organizing these meets.
We now organize a little meet from time to time via email, invitation style only. Sounds snobby, but this way we *know* who is attenting, it's less of a hassle, and a bit safer. We lay out a touristic route, have lots of stops, and try to end up in a nice restaurant so we have the time to talk about more than dump valves
We encourage people to take their partners/kids.Still, even at those closed meets I have experienced myself how difficult it sometimes is NOT to go beyond the safe limits.
Real life example:
You lead, normal speeds, oops, slow non convoy driver in front of you. You overtake safely, wait for the rest, first one catches up, drives a bit too close to your bumper, so you want to make space for the rest and accelerate, driver behind thinks you want to give it a bit of stick. People behind don't want to loose the convoy out of sight, and start to overtike where normally they wouldn't ... etc ... a good example of 10 "responsible" people (me included) going way faster than we intented. We did NOT WANT to, but the nature of a group drive made it happen anyway.
This to say it does not have to be "one loony" spoiling it for others. I think what SDB is saying is that the fact of driving in a group *will* at some point induce a few hairy moments.
It is a half miracle that no "serious" accidents have happened (that I know of) during all these meets ...
The alternatives that are planned from time to time (like the Scoobynet BBS, or the Vroemdag in Zolder yesterday in Belgium) however seem to not appeal to a lot of people though.
That amazes me to no end.Sure, there is always "the distance" problem (that's why local meets are probably so popular), but we like driving our cars, so it shouldn't be *that* much of a problem.
What about things like courses/handling tests on private airfields. I'm sure there are a few around the UK, and you can have a lot of fun, social banter, and skill improvement in a safe matter. One could imagine designing a "format" for those meets. Call them the Scoobynet LOOS courses or whatever. Sort out insurance for those days.
I'm not saying I'm against the group drive meets ... I enjoyed the first few I did very much, met a lot of people, made the Scooby owning experience really worth it etc etc... but in hindsight I'm glad I don't really participate anymore, and that nothing major happened.
Another thought ... SIDC track days are very popular, but don't appeal to the people who just don't want to take the risk of damaging their car on track ... is it worth while thinking of some side animation so that you can "attend track days without having to go on track" ? I know, lots of work, but it may be worth while. Wax wizzard demo, cheap "dentmaster" facility ... it can work, the Dutch club organized 2 of those, and they were very well atttended.
Maybe these meets will cost a bit more to the participants ... but just imagine what it could cost if a major accident will happen
It would be an incredible blow to the community.Theo
10 October 2001, 12:28 PM
#39
Further to the point made by Chris B
A recent thread criticised the conduct of a driver at a meet. The line taken at that time I felt was a reasonable one, i.e that every effort should be taken to ensure responsible standards were maintained and that risk was minimised.
I suggested that we developed a “code of conduct” for such events. The response was as expected minimal. It is after all much easier to criticise than to provide constructive suggestions! At that time there was no comment from the "Webmaster" regarding the organisation of such events. However now it would appear that any meeting of members of this board that involves driving a route in convoy is prohibited.
May I ask why attention was not drawn to this a few weeks ago ?
So far as the statement that SIDC “prohibits ANY group driving on events“ I have in front of me a copy of the SIDC guidelines for meets of this kind, if a cruise/run or similar event is unacceptable why is this guidance issued? And why if this is unacceptable is it possible to utlize the board to organise it and more importantly subsequently comment upon and boast about achievements at these events????
From my earliest involvement with this bbs it has provided a focus for Scooby runs so if "ANY event that is organised with a ScoobyNet banner must have no group drives associated with it". Why have such threads not been locked or erased in the same manner that those critical of suppliers/ distributors?
I also wonder if one of these “unauthorised events” is held. How it is proposed to ban/prevent an individual from joining. As the owner of more than one fully road legal car how do you propose to prevent me following a route that coincidentally replicates the route of a number of other Subaru drivers
Could I also suggest that not only the individual involved but also drivers of cars that "took up the challenge" were equally guilty. It takes at least two to establish a competition, if they are unable to excercise restraint they warrant the same level of condemnation/exclusion. .
A recent thread criticised the conduct of a driver at a meet. The line taken at that time I felt was a reasonable one, i.e that every effort should be taken to ensure responsible standards were maintained and that risk was minimised.
I suggested that we developed a “code of conduct” for such events. The response was as expected minimal. It is after all much easier to criticise than to provide constructive suggestions! At that time there was no comment from the "Webmaster" regarding the organisation of such events. However now it would appear that any meeting of members of this board that involves driving a route in convoy is prohibited.
May I ask why attention was not drawn to this a few weeks ago ?
So far as the statement that SIDC “prohibits ANY group driving on events“ I have in front of me a copy of the SIDC guidelines for meets of this kind, if a cruise/run or similar event is unacceptable why is this guidance issued? And why if this is unacceptable is it possible to utlize the board to organise it and more importantly subsequently comment upon and boast about achievements at these events????
From my earliest involvement with this bbs it has provided a focus for Scooby runs so if "ANY event that is organised with a ScoobyNet banner must have no group drives associated with it". Why have such threads not been locked or erased in the same manner that those critical of suppliers/ distributors?
I also wonder if one of these “unauthorised events” is held. How it is proposed to ban/prevent an individual from joining. As the owner of more than one fully road legal car how do you propose to prevent me following a route that coincidentally replicates the route of a number of other Subaru drivers
Could I also suggest that not only the individual involved but also drivers of cars that "took up the challenge" were equally guilty. It takes at least two to establish a competition, if they are unable to excercise restraint they warrant the same level of condemnation/exclusion. .
10 October 2001, 01:04 PM
#40
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Reading through all of this I can't help but draw similarities to when riding bikes in groups - driving scoobs in a group is no different, but has the complication that a scoob has much more bulk when it comes to making a pass.
The general problem tends to be that whatever speed the front runner drives at, the poor soul at the back would in some cases need to be going maybe 50% quicker just to keep up, as you're always gonna get parts of the group seperated at junctions/ traffic lights or just on overtaking. An inexperienced group would quite often have their quickest rider at the front, with the most inexperienced at the back, which is usually the wrong way to do it.
What we tend to do these days is put a level-headed rider at the front who's capable of navigating well, setting a comfortable pace, and being responsible for the group when it comes to overtakes (ie if he thinks that the whole group can't make an overtake easily enough he'll hold back until such an opportunity arises). He needs to anticipate problems before they happen. Your more inexperienced riders (or those who are a little too throttle-happy) go inbetween. Your bloke at the back acts as a sort of sweeper in case anyone gets lost or whatever, and usually tends to be one of the faster more capable riders.
Course all this only works nicely if everyone's happy to run at a 'brisk' pace which suits the whole group, but usually it works well and has proven much less problematic. We've had plenty of 250 mile blasts through wales like this, with no incidents or near-misses so far (touch wood
) If this all sounds too arranged to be any fun, bear in mind we've never yet had a car keep up (although plenty have tried) so the pace is still enjoyable but appropriate for the roads.
Maybe something similar can be adopted for the scooby meetups? The main thing is to put the experienced drivers in a position where they're responsible for the newbies. If someone isn't happy to keep their place in the group (ie they want to blow everyone into the weeds) then the alarm bells should be ringing.
Just my half-thruppence anyhoo.
The general problem tends to be that whatever speed the front runner drives at, the poor soul at the back would in some cases need to be going maybe 50% quicker just to keep up, as you're always gonna get parts of the group seperated at junctions/ traffic lights or just on overtaking. An inexperienced group would quite often have their quickest rider at the front, with the most inexperienced at the back, which is usually the wrong way to do it.
What we tend to do these days is put a level-headed rider at the front who's capable of navigating well, setting a comfortable pace, and being responsible for the group when it comes to overtakes (ie if he thinks that the whole group can't make an overtake easily enough he'll hold back until such an opportunity arises). He needs to anticipate problems before they happen. Your more inexperienced riders (or those who are a little too throttle-happy) go inbetween. Your bloke at the back acts as a sort of sweeper in case anyone gets lost or whatever, and usually tends to be one of the faster more capable riders.
Course all this only works nicely if everyone's happy to run at a 'brisk' pace which suits the whole group, but usually it works well and has proven much less problematic. We've had plenty of 250 mile blasts through wales like this, with no incidents or near-misses so far (touch wood
) If this all sounds too arranged to be any fun, bear in mind we've never yet had a car keep up (although plenty have tried) so the pace is still enjoyable but appropriate for the roads.Maybe something similar can be adopted for the scooby meetups? The main thing is to put the experienced drivers in a position where they're responsible for the newbies. If someone isn't happy to keep their place in the group (ie they want to blow everyone into the weeds) then the alarm bells should be ringing.
Just my half-thruppence anyhoo.
10 October 2001, 01:39 PM
#41
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by banshi:
<B>I am perhaps easily confused, but could someone provide a clear an unequivocal statement on this issue?
Comments so far are somewhat contradictory and include:-
The SIDC prohibits ANY group driving on events (obviously except track days), and this is the stand I would like to take with scoobynet also. (Webmaster)
The SIDC have allowed group drives, but there are strict conditions. Never more than 4 cars and driven at a pace that complies with the RTA and could not bring the SIDC into disrepute. (Mr Croney)
</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless the drive is authorised by the SIDC Committee, then it doesn't happen. If the RO lets it happen/arranges it, then its on his head. The confusion arose because I wrote a two liner to Simon and didn't have time to go into detail.
So far there have been two authorised drives this year. Neil's and the Derby meet, both being run under club guidleines.
Any contradiction is the fault if my briefness when I mailed Simon.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
"a scooby meet in North Yorkshire on Sunday 7th of October resulted in dangerous driving" (Webmaster)
This came about from an email the SIDC received, from a group of cyclists, one of whom was very nearly hit and killed on NM6 (Mr Croney)
</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hope that isn't confusing
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
ScoobyNet DOES NOT in ANY way condone the organisation of group drive during meets organised on this board.
&
ANY event that is organised with a ScoobyNet banner must have no group drives associated with it........ScoobyNet officially DEEPLY opposes them.
Nonetheless these meets continue to be planned and discussed in each regional forum.
[/quote]
Indeed they do. Out of interest, how many people that have organised meets have Public Liability insurance?
I doubt any. I wonder if the people who have been organising their own "meet & drive" events realise they could be sued for everything they will ever have, if they are proved to be negligent following a serious accident/fatality.
<B>I am perhaps easily confused, but could someone provide a clear an unequivocal statement on this issue?
Comments so far are somewhat contradictory and include:-
The SIDC prohibits ANY group driving on events (obviously except track days), and this is the stand I would like to take with scoobynet also. (Webmaster)
The SIDC have allowed group drives, but there are strict conditions. Never more than 4 cars and driven at a pace that complies with the RTA and could not bring the SIDC into disrepute. (Mr Croney)
</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless the drive is authorised by the SIDC Committee, then it doesn't happen. If the RO lets it happen/arranges it, then its on his head. The confusion arose because I wrote a two liner to Simon and didn't have time to go into detail.
So far there have been two authorised drives this year. Neil's and the Derby meet, both being run under club guidleines.
Any contradiction is the fault if my briefness when I mailed Simon.
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
"a scooby meet in North Yorkshire on Sunday 7th of October resulted in dangerous driving" (Webmaster)
This came about from an email the SIDC received, from a group of cyclists, one of whom was very nearly hit and killed on NM6 (Mr Croney)
</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hope that isn't confusing
<B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>
ScoobyNet DOES NOT in ANY way condone the organisation of group drive during meets organised on this board.
&
ANY event that is organised with a ScoobyNet banner must have no group drives associated with it........ScoobyNet officially DEEPLY opposes them.
Nonetheless these meets continue to be planned and discussed in each regional forum.
[/quote]
Indeed they do. Out of interest, how many people that have organised meets have Public Liability insurance?
I doubt any. I wonder if the people who have been organising their own "meet & drive" events realise they could be sued for everything they will ever have, if they are proved to be negligent following a serious accident/fatality.
10 October 2001, 02:06 PM
#43
Mr Leigh
You are making light of a VERY serious subject.
If someone is killed on an event that you organise (or have part in organising), you could be imprisoned, or (as pete said) sued for MILLIONS of pounds which you are unlikely to pay off for the rest of your life. Life over, game over.
It suddenly doesn't become "boring" any more.
No matter what the stand point is with regard to SIDC and rules and regs. ScoobyNet officially condemns the organisation of group drives and states that no matter what is stated, any group drives will NOT be officially sanctioned or organised by scoobynet.
Apologies for being so serious, but I refuse to lose my home and everything I will ever earn for the rest of my life due to something that goes wrong due to a one off incident, etc.
All the best
Simon
You are making light of a VERY serious subject.
If someone is killed on an event that you organise (or have part in organising), you could be imprisoned, or (as pete said) sued for MILLIONS of pounds which you are unlikely to pay off for the rest of your life. Life over, game over.
It suddenly doesn't become "boring" any more.
No matter what the stand point is with regard to SIDC and rules and regs. ScoobyNet officially condemns the organisation of group drives and states that no matter what is stated, any group drives will NOT be officially sanctioned or organised by scoobynet.
Apologies for being so serious, but I refuse to lose my home and everything I will ever earn for the rest of my life due to something that goes wrong due to a one off incident, etc.
All the best
Simon
10 October 2001, 02:08 PM
#44
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Yes, Pete I am confused.
The two events were unrelated NM6 was not October 7th nor in N.Yorks.
Anyone know where I can e-mail to complain about a "group of cyclists" hogging the road and riding with no attention to other road users?
Subjective nonsense. But I accept damaging nevertheless as we are all per se turbo nutter barstewards.
How many people realise they can be sued for all sorts of things in and out of cars?
Anyone speak to the pillock responsible for 7th Oct dangerous driving? Report his number to Old Bill he is a danger to road users ALL THE TIME not just on a meet. Ditto those who followed his bait.
Our right to free association has, to my knowledge, not been banned or rescinded, so punish the guilty and please don't tar the rest of us with the same brush.
And as for Scoobynet's disapproval? What is the moral stance over the "how do I avoid a ban after my nth speeding conviction" type posts?
I have never seen the Riot Act read to any of those. Nor such deserved outright condemnation.
This is not intended to cause offence to any individual other than the perpetrator of the
dangerous driving.
Oh and perhaps "groups of cyclists".
The two events were unrelated NM6 was not October 7th nor in N.Yorks.
Anyone know where I can e-mail to complain about a "group of cyclists" hogging the road and riding with no attention to other road users?
Subjective nonsense. But I accept damaging nevertheless as we are all per se turbo nutter barstewards.
How many people realise they can be sued for all sorts of things in and out of cars?
Anyone speak to the pillock responsible for 7th Oct dangerous driving? Report his number to Old Bill he is a danger to road users ALL THE TIME not just on a meet. Ditto those who followed his bait.
Our right to free association has, to my knowledge, not been banned or rescinded, so punish the guilty and please don't tar the rest of us with the same brush.
And as for Scoobynet's disapproval? What is the moral stance over the "how do I avoid a ban after my nth speeding conviction" type posts?
I have never seen the Riot Act read to any of those. Nor such deserved outright condemnation.
This is not intended to cause offence to any individual other than the perpetrator of the
dangerous driving.
Oh and perhaps "groups of cyclists".
10 October 2001, 02:11 PM
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Si,
A question that came to me when re-reading all this ... are people still allowed to post about the meets ? I understand fully well about liability ... so I wondered if Scoobynet would be responsable anyway, even if it condems the meets, if they are organized via this bbs.
I'm sure a few of the organizers would want/need to know this. Will the moderators intervene ?
This is not a fun topic, but I think that it needs to be clear ... sorry if this is a stupid question.
A question that came to me when re-reading all this ... are people still allowed to post about the meets ? I understand fully well about liability ... so I wondered if Scoobynet would be responsable anyway, even if it condems the meets, if they are organized via this bbs.
I'm sure a few of the organizers would want/need to know this. Will the moderators intervene ?
This is not a fun topic, but I think that it needs to be clear ... sorry if this is a stupid question.
10 October 2001, 02:16 PM
#46
BarryK
It is not for scoobynet to enforce a moral stance, only to ensure the morals of the community as a whole are met. If the majority express certain morals then (assuming no other complications) they will be upheld.
Theo
I believe you may be right. I am going to take legal advice, but I think it will be necessary for us to ban all promotion or planning of such events on scoobynet.
I am hoping that the events can still be organised, and if individuals decide to go on a drive whilst at the event, then that *may* be OK legally. But I'll need to check.
All the best
Simon
It is not for scoobynet to enforce a moral stance, only to ensure the morals of the community as a whole are met. If the majority express certain morals then (assuming no other complications) they will be upheld.
Theo
I believe you may be right. I am going to take legal advice, but I think it will be necessary for us to ban all promotion or planning of such events on scoobynet.
I am hoping that the events can still be organised, and if individuals decide to go on a drive whilst at the event, then that *may* be OK legally. But I'll need to check.
All the best
Simon
10 October 2001, 02:32 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Yes, Pete I am confused.
The two events were unrelated NM6 was not October 7th nor in N.Yorks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Confused and a tad worried now.
I was on NM6 but non on the North Yorkshire event on Sunday. Should I be expecting PC Plod to be ringing me up soon?
The two events were unrelated NM6 was not October 7th nor in N.Yorks.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Confused and a tad worried now.
I was on NM6 but non on the North Yorkshire event on Sunday. Should I be expecting PC Plod to be ringing me up soon?
10 October 2001, 02:41 PM
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Plod ring you up about what?
"Hello sir, can you confirm you drove your car around North West England and the Peak District on Sunday 30th September? Did you see some geezers looking for magic mushrooms on Holme Moss?"
Yes I can. And yes I did. Although I thought they had lost a contact lense in the high wind.
"Hello sir, can you confirm you drove your car around North West England and the Peak District on Sunday 30th September? Did you see some geezers looking for magic mushrooms on Holme Moss?"
Yes I can. And yes I did. Although I thought they had lost a contact lense in the high wind.
10 October 2001, 02:42 PM
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Someone suggested some alternative ideas. How about 'Autocross' as the americans do, drive round a cone course in a big carpark at speed no higher than 2nd/3rd gear. Go to I-club for more info. Don't know how you'd stand on insurance grounds though.
Toerag
Toerag
10 October 2001, 03:12 PM
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Toerag:
<B>Someone suggested some alternative ideas. How about 'Autocross' as the americans do, drive round a cone course in a big carpark at speed no higher than 2nd/3rd gear. Go to I-club for more info. Don't know how you'd stand on insurance grounds though.
Toerag[/quote]
A valid point and is probably worth a new thread of it's own. Whilst it's nice to meet up <I>only</I> for a drink now and again, it's not exactly the most exciting thing is it?
<B>Someone suggested some alternative ideas. How about 'Autocross' as the americans do, drive round a cone course in a big carpark at speed no higher than 2nd/3rd gear. Go to I-club for more info. Don't know how you'd stand on insurance grounds though.
Toerag[/quote]
A valid point and is probably worth a new thread of it's own. Whilst it's nice to meet up <I>only</I> for a drink now and again, it's not exactly the most exciting thing is it?
10 October 2001, 04:13 PM
#52
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Oh good grief. You can hardly be prosecuted for arranging a meeting can you??
And you are hardly responsible for all the actions of said people during the meeting are you?
If I were to bring along a shotgun and shoot some people at these meets then would the organiser be responsible?
What's so evil about going on a drive with a group of people anyway? Ban the London-Brighton before someone gets killed!
It's not the concept of people driving one behind another which is worrying, it's the concept of people driving like nutters full stop. I would suggest that people who drive dangerously at these meets don't need that kind of excuse anyway.
Let's not get carried away otherwise you will end up saying don't ever drive your Impreza on the roads, only drive it on the track, because the argument can clearly be extended in that way. In fact why not ban the sale of powerful cars for road use altogether....
And you are hardly responsible for all the actions of said people during the meeting are you?
If I were to bring along a shotgun and shoot some people at these meets then would the organiser be responsible?
What's so evil about going on a drive with a group of people anyway? Ban the London-Brighton before someone gets killed!
It's not the concept of people driving one behind another which is worrying, it's the concept of people driving like nutters full stop. I would suggest that people who drive dangerously at these meets don't need that kind of excuse anyway.
Let's not get carried away otherwise you will end up saying don't ever drive your Impreza on the roads, only drive it on the track, because the argument can clearly be extended in that way. In fact why not ban the sale of powerful cars for road use altogether....
10 October 2001, 04:29 PM
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Ban postings about arranging meets? Isn't that like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut? As far as I know (and I'm no solicitor), how can ScoobyNet or the organisers be held responsible for actions of those on the drives?
I think you'll find should an incident occur (and lets all hope it doesnt) the Police would be more interested in the drivers involved than anything else. If a member of a caravan club has an accident whilst in convoy does that mean the organiser is to blame?
I found the Derbyshire run extremely well organised and everyone was issued with guidelines and a safety briefing before we even left the start. That in my mind takes all blame off of the organiser(s) and Scoobynet (it is also pointed out that the run WASN'T in any way affiliated with ScoobyNet or the SIDC).
If need be I'll be more than happy to run a meet based BBS from my web server.
Please don't let the actions of one spoil the enjoyment of the many.
I think you'll find should an incident occur (and lets all hope it doesnt) the Police would be more interested in the drivers involved than anything else. If a member of a caravan club has an accident whilst in convoy does that mean the organiser is to blame?
I found the Derbyshire run extremely well organised and everyone was issued with guidelines and a safety briefing before we even left the start. That in my mind takes all blame off of the organiser(s) and Scoobynet (it is also pointed out that the run WASN'T in any way affiliated with ScoobyNet or the SIDC).
If need be I'll be more than happy to run a meet based BBS from my web server.
Please don't let the actions of one spoil the enjoyment of the many.
10 October 2001, 04:51 PM
#54
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Hmm..
Always going to be a difficult one.
Maybe the law is different in Scotland, but, my understanding is that:-
a) Signed disclaimers generally aren't legally worth the paper they are written on (although may well help to focus the mind)and
b) If a "legal" event is organised by a private individual without reward, ie for free, then that individual cannot be held liable if it all goes pear shaped. Defenition of legal being an event which does not contravene any of the existing laws. Organising a drive from a to b was not illegal the last time I looked provided it did not contravene the Road Traffic Act If it is going to be timed then for a club with RACMSA affiliation to be involved RACMSA approval must be sought. IIRC from club days, the police had to be notified under RACMSA rules. A non affiliated body could organise anything they wanted provided no RTA contravention.
In any event, the onus is on the party seeking damages to prove negligence and hence liability so lets not be so quick on the scaremongering front without the benefit of legal opinion.
Simon, you say that if at a meet a group decide to go for a drive that may be ok. By the current line of thinking then the liability would rest with the person who first suggested it -they become the "organiser" of the drive, just the same as if they had organised a meet with a drive. Would they be liable, I don't think so.
Primary action would be taken against the driver or drivers who caused the accident/event/loss (call it what you will)not the organiser in that scenario.
On the other hand the SIDC could be liable for any injury caused at a fee paid track day, disclaimers or not. When you organise something for a fee, you automatically adopt duty of care status. If you are found negligent you are F&cked, disclaimers or no disclaimers.
All just my humble opinion drawn from experience of being involved in an affiliated motor sports club for some years and having been involved in a serious RTA on a treasure hunt run by a non affilited motor dealer.
Perhaps a lawyer would care to comment?
Notwithstanding any of that, there is no excuse for endangering others on the road at any time.
D
Always going to be a difficult one.
Maybe the law is different in Scotland, but, my understanding is that:-
a) Signed disclaimers generally aren't legally worth the paper they are written on (although may well help to focus the mind)and
b) If a "legal" event is organised by a private individual without reward, ie for free, then that individual cannot be held liable if it all goes pear shaped. Defenition of legal being an event which does not contravene any of the existing laws. Organising a drive from a to b was not illegal the last time I looked provided it did not contravene the Road Traffic Act If it is going to be timed then for a club with RACMSA affiliation to be involved RACMSA approval must be sought. IIRC from club days, the police had to be notified under RACMSA rules. A non affiliated body could organise anything they wanted provided no RTA contravention.
In any event, the onus is on the party seeking damages to prove negligence and hence liability so lets not be so quick on the scaremongering front without the benefit of legal opinion.
Simon, you say that if at a meet a group decide to go for a drive that may be ok. By the current line of thinking then the liability would rest with the person who first suggested it -they become the "organiser" of the drive, just the same as if they had organised a meet with a drive. Would they be liable, I don't think so.
Primary action would be taken against the driver or drivers who caused the accident/event/loss (call it what you will)not the organiser in that scenario.
On the other hand the SIDC could be liable for any injury caused at a fee paid track day, disclaimers or not. When you organise something for a fee, you automatically adopt duty of care status. If you are found negligent you are F&cked, disclaimers or no disclaimers.
All just my humble opinion drawn from experience of being involved in an affiliated motor sports club for some years and having been involved in a serious RTA on a treasure hunt run by a non affilited motor dealer.
Perhaps a lawyer would care to comment?
Notwithstanding any of that, there is no excuse for endangering others on the road at any time.
D
10 October 2001, 04:53 PM
#55
I am currently trying to develop a charity event which is a different format to the ones we have tried so far.
This may include a session similar to that suggested by Toerag. Links with the charity have been established and discussion with venues/supporters are in train.
Discussion with the usual suspects soon, but any other ideas will be welcome.
Also looking to get an invite to the GTO Million Miglia (anyone with an "in" to that organisation?)
This may include a session similar to that suggested by Toerag. Links with the charity have been established and discussion with venues/supporters are in train.
Discussion with the usual suspects soon, but any other ideas will be welcome.
Also looking to get an invite to the GTO Million Miglia (anyone with an "in" to that organisation?)
10 October 2001, 05:24 PM
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I found that NM6 was very well organised 
we had a mixure of cars in our group (mostly uk turbos and a sport) and only due to heavy traffic and some very slow drivers (30mph in a national speed limit) put a downer on it
Im not saying that you should go blasting around all over the place and overtake on the brow of a hill or corners but alot of the roads out there are hazardous and a few of the roads we travelled on were tight and twisty.
The trouble is that with events like this you have Joe Bloggs as the normal member of the public wanting to use the road too, even if it is at 30mph in a national limit (which does annoy me slightly as i drive my van quicker over those roads than most ppl do who just go out on a sunday) but i have to respect them aswell (except the ax driver who was all over the bl00dy road in front of me!!! 
)
Overtaking should be done on these occasions :-
1. When safe to do so!
Also if you get a driver in front of you like i did in the ax, give them a beep on the horn so they know that your there, indicate and overtake (even thou i did where i did the road was clear ahead and no car could come towards me quickly).
Like everyone else im no saint but i dont take the sort of risks like overtaking on a right or left hand blind bend (thus the reason i lost the pack on NM5 ) but also remember that there are 2 potential idiots on the road when you overtake, YOU and that car in front! (as one i was overtaking decided that he would pull out without indicating or looking in their mirror).
I have my good point thou like not exceeding 30mph in a 30zone and i can tell you that p155es people off soooooooo much i even get them 3 inches off my rear bumper and with the 4pots ive got on my car if i braked they would be in my rear seat but there are soooooo many hazards out there that one day our driving will just be for the track and no where else
Tony
we had a mixure of cars in our group (mostly uk turbos and a sport) and only due to heavy traffic and some very slow drivers (30mph in a national speed limit) put a downer on it Im not saying that you should go blasting around all over the place and overtake on the brow of a hill or corners but alot of the roads out there are hazardous and a few of the roads we travelled on were tight and twisty.
The trouble is that with events like this you have Joe Bloggs as the normal member of the public wanting to use the road too, even if it is at 30mph in a national limit (which does annoy me slightly as i drive my van quicker over those roads than most ppl do who just go out on a sunday
) but i have to respect them aswell (except the ax driver who was all over the bl00dy road in front of me!!! )Overtaking should be done on these occasions :-
1. When safe to do so!
Also if you get a driver in front of you like i did in the ax, give them a beep on the horn so they know that your there, indicate and overtake (even thou i did where i did the road was clear ahead and no car could come towards me quickly).
Like everyone else im no saint but i dont take the sort of risks like overtaking on a right or left hand blind bend (thus the reason i lost the pack on NM5
) but also remember that there are 2 potential idiots on the road when you overtake, YOU and that car in front! (as one i was overtaking decided that he would pull out without indicating or looking in their mirror).I have my good point thou
like not exceeding 30mph in a 30zone and i can tell you that p155es people off soooooooo much i even get them 3 inches off my rear bumper and with the 4pots ive got on my car if i braked they would be in my rear seat but there are soooooo many hazards out there that one day our driving will just be for the track and no where else Tony
10 October 2001, 05:48 PM
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I used to help organise the London to Brighton Mini Run (2000 + mini's). Because the club that organised it was an RAC recognised club we had third party liability insurance against any claims made against the organisers... might be worth looking into
10 October 2001, 07:11 PM
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(aka Richard Gledhill, for those who know me from jointly organising the Ring of Cambridge runs and helping out with a Grafham Water run).
I agree entirely with the sentiments of what's being said here. I was very, very disappointed when there were two incidents on the way to one of our organised tours (<B>not</B> on the tour itself). If you look back at the postings for each of the runs I've had a hand in, in <I>every case</I> we have said again and again that it is an <B>enjoyable tour</B>, in no way a race. We have max 4-5 cars per set, and I always try and put someone responsible out in front.
We have had smaller turn-outs on the Cambridge runs than some (certainly nowhere near the number of Northern Meets), and I think this is because only the sensible people come along now - the 'drive on the limit' people know they're not welcome to them and don't bother turning up, which suits all of us.
I firmly believe that we have reached a sensible decorum on these runs - as can be seen from people's comments afterwards. We <B>always</B> stick to 30,40,50 limits, and always limit our speeds elsewhere to being sensible for the roads and conditions. In the end I think everyone enjoys it more.
We have a Cambridge meet coming up on 28th October, and some of us are planning to do part of the Ring of Cambridge again. If we do, rest assured it will be another sensibly driven event - you can have fun without being stupid. Robski, I hope you will join us on at least part of it to see what I mean. If it's enjoyable enough for PTMW, and safe enough for Dave T-S, then it must be ok
We (i.e. the other organisers of things in our area (Cambridge) and I) take these matters extremely seriously and frankly don't want 'racers' turning up. I firmly believe our runs are proof that you can have fun and be responsible at the same time.
Cheers
Richard
I agree entirely with the sentiments of what's being said here. I was very, very disappointed when there were two incidents on the way to one of our organised tours (<B>not</B> on the tour itself). If you look back at the postings for each of the runs I've had a hand in, in <I>every case</I> we have said again and again that it is an <B>enjoyable tour</B>, in no way a race. We have max 4-5 cars per set, and I always try and put someone responsible out in front.
We have had smaller turn-outs on the Cambridge runs than some (certainly nowhere near the number of Northern Meets), and I think this is because only the sensible people come along now - the 'drive on the limit' people know they're not welcome to them and don't bother turning up, which suits all of us.
I firmly believe that we have reached a sensible decorum on these runs - as can be seen from people's comments afterwards. We <B>always</B> stick to 30,40,50 limits, and always limit our speeds elsewhere to being sensible for the roads and conditions. In the end I think everyone enjoys it more.
We have a Cambridge meet coming up on 28th October, and some of us are planning to do part of the Ring of Cambridge again. If we do, rest assured it will be another sensibly driven event - you can have fun without being stupid. Robski, I hope you will join us on at least part of it to see what I mean. If it's enjoyable enough for PTMW, and safe enough for Dave T-S, then it must be ok
We (i.e. the other organisers of things in our area (Cambridge) and I) take these matters extremely seriously and frankly don't want 'racers' turning up. I firmly believe our runs are proof that you can have fun and be responsible at the same time.
Cheers
Richard
