adge

iTrader: (22)

Does this mean I should take the SIDC/Scoobynet stickers out of my car in case I have an accident and bring said into disrepute?.
Seriously though I've been on NM3,4,5,6 and have enjoyed every one Thanks MTR. I would hate to think that these might not be organised anymore due to the recklessness of a few individuals.
As is pointed out at these meets, it is not a race/rally whatsoever, do not break any speed limits and everybody has a copy of the route so doesn't have to keep up with the person in front, which is pretty near impossible due to the traffic anyway.
As for organisers being held resposible for any accidents on a friendly none paying run seems bizarre.(Does that mean if I arrange for myself and a couple of mates to go for a drive in our cars and one has an accident then I'm responsible , I don't think so.)
Lets be sensible, they know who is involved, either don't let them have a route(I'd be too embarrassed if it was me) and let cars go one at a time instead of groups of 10. Then we can all enjoy the drive for what it is a friendly, law abiding get together.
The other alternative is to organise a meet somewhere for lunch and a chat and then go home without an organised drive. This would give us the chance to meet, chat, look at the cars without the hassle/pressure of a drive and people can drive how they want there and back. I personnally would be quite happy with this as the best bit of the meet is meeting and looking at the cars.
If I want to go fast then I'll take it on a trackday.

carl

I think the non-paying bit is the key. In legal terms this is 'consideration' -- in order for a contract to exist, something of value must pass between the two parties. This is why sometimes when you buy a property leasehold it has a ground-rent of nominal value, say a peppercorn per year. Since there is nothing of monetary value passing hands here, there is no contract and hence (I would presume) no liability. However, IANAL, YMMV

carl

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by adge:
<B>Does this mean I should take the SIDC/Scoobynet stickers out of my car in case I have an accident and bring said into disrepute?[/quote]

If this is the case, Kenwood and Clifford must be sh*tting themselves when they see all those Novaboys about.

Paul_H

I went on NM6 recently, this was my first meet and I was pleasantly surprised at how well organised it was and how responsible the other drivers in my group were. I saw numerous drivers exercising restraint e.g. keeping a good distance apart and not overtaking slower traffic because it was obvious that the whole group would not get past. I also saw the leader slowing the group down (and putting hazard warning lights on to signal danger) for a couple of tight wet bends.
I was expecting to see some "antics" - and saw none. Obviously I can't comment on the other "groups" on the run, only what I saw. Overall I was impressed with the atmosphere and felt safe in the other drivers company. I enjoyed the day and thank MTR for organising it. I would go on another.

I have also recently renewed my insurance and read the small print on my certificate to check it was correct. I noticed that, in common with most other insurance policies, there was the following exclusion:

"Use for (i) hire or reward (ii)racing, pacemaking, speed testing, participating in any rally, reliability trial or competition."

I wonder if the insurance company would consider a meet to be a "rally"??? i.e. are we risking our insurance?

Paul

banshi

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by detheridge02:
<B>
If need be I'll be more than happy to run a meet based BBS from my web server.
[/quote]

Brilliant m8,we may well be in touch

Mr Kelly and his cohorts have already organised a number of invitation only runs via e groups so thats another option.

I'm also seeking advice on the Public liability issue but that will take a week or two as my contact's away on business.

Chris Clayton

As the "organiser" of the Yorkshire meet on the 7th October,
I thought I had better put my thoughts in on this matter.

Firstly - the day was organised as a relaxed meet with a run out.
Read the forum:
(http://bbs.scoobynet.co.uk/Forum18/HTML/000224.html)
and it will show that the whole mood of the meet was for people to
get together, talk about their cars, have a run out with a
bite to eat and generally a have good day.

We spent alot of time researching the route to avoid main roads
and traffic, not that this was because we wanted to drive as
fast as possible along them - but to make the run more
enjoyable and take in places of interest such as Newburgh Priory,
the White horse on Sutton Bank, Byland Abbey, Helmsley castle/village,
Castle Howard and Kirkham Priory!!!.

I'm not saying that everyones driving was perfect and perhaps that
more could be done at future meets to explain to everyone some
"basic rules" etc etc - a guide may be good idea - but the way I
see it, at the end of the day, people are responsible for their
own actions.
Myself and most others respected all 30/40 mph limits without
fail.
I have certainly seen far worse driving in everyday traffic that
has resulted in accidents, my wife being a Paramedic who constantly
sees the results of these.
I know people do get carried away, but once again we are
all grown adults (hopefully), and it is up to individuals to behave
accordingly.

As for all the legal stuff etc etc - I must admit some comments
are a bit worrying - I certainly do not want to lose my house,
car, life, job, wife etc etc (not necessarily in that order).
It all seems a bit extreme to say the least.
As a former biker we attended bike meets of 30 or so bikes with
IAM and police bikers involved. On the odd occasion someone
would fall off but nothing ever came up about the onus being put on
the organiser.
e.g. If a few lads decide to go for a ride/run out and an accident
happens (and it did in a village not far from us where a small
child was killed when a biker was doing 90 mph in a 30 mph limit),
is it the bloke who said "lets go for a ride out that carries the
can"? In the case above - it was the solo rider who was sent to
prison and justifiably so.

I could go on and on and this would end up like a version of war
and peace - but it would be a shame if Scoobynet banned people
organising meets on the board that involved a drive out because of
"what could happen".

I am quite happy to discuss any aspect of the meet or suggestions
for future meets.
People can e-mail me off line if they prefer, or post on here, I log-on
most evenings.

Chris Clayton

Dream Weaver

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pete Croney:
<B> Indeed they do. Out of interest, how many people that have organised meets have Public Liability insurance?

I doubt any. I wonder if the people who have been organising their own "meet & drive" events realise they could be sued for everything they will ever have, if they are proved to be negligent following a serious accident/fatality.

[/quote]

So if I ring up 4 or 5 mates, and ask them if they want to meet at a pub, in their cars, in the country somewhere for lunch and a pint, I can be sued for public liability if they crash???

I think not - this is an interesting thread.

It seems a bit like we are being told not to meet up and drive around in groups AFAIK my car is fully paid for, with MOT and insurance. Surely I can go out for a spin with my mates without needing permission from anyone or worrying about public liability???

I have been on about 5 meets now, and they have been great. There is a bit of progression, but we have always stuck to the limits in built up areas.

Anyway, thats all for me

M_D_B

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ian Griffiths:
[B] Its human nature to drive (too) close to another car that you're following, especially if you're unfamiliar with their driving style. [B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotta disagree with this. If I don't know someones driving style, I assume they're out to kill me and leave more room than someone I've driven with before, and none of those will describe me as a tailgater. Now, if only I could get everyone else on the road to do the same to me. I have been on several drives, and have driven the same way one each of them as I drive when I'm on my own.
Martin.

matt d

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by webmaster:
<B>Mr Leigh

You are making light of a VERY serious subject.

If someone is killed on an event that you organise (or have part in organising), you could be imprisoned, or (as pete said) sued for MILLIONS of pounds which you are unlikely to pay off for the rest of your life. Life over, game over.

It suddenly doesn't become "boring" any more.

No matter what the stand point is with regard to SIDC and rules and regs. ScoobyNet officially condemns the organisation of group drives and states that no matter what is stated, any group drives will NOT be officially sanctioned or organised by scoobynet.

Apologies for being so serious, but I refuse to lose my home and everything I will ever earn for the rest of my life due to something that goes wrong due to a one off incident, etc.

All the best

Simon[/quote]

This may come across the wrong way, but have you considered insurance for scoobynet? (not just for this, but general cover against lawsuits etc?). I am pretty sure you could arrange it for a reasonable premium? I have a friend who works in the Lloyds market and if you want to ask any questions feel free to email me.

P.S. I am not trying to angle for business etc, just thought it might be of interest.

Ian Griffiths

Certainly lots to think about. From personal experience I can tell you that driving standards gets a *lot* lower when you combine a group of drivers; tour, group, convoy, whatever. Without exception. Its human nature to drive (too) close to another car that you're following, especially if you're unfamiliar with their driving style. Sprinkle in some red mist and bravado and you're asking for trouble.

Anyone who also wants to nit-pick on technicalities and thinks that Scoobynet would actually not be responsible for an incident at a meet is obviously also missing the point. *Any* mishap would at best give SN/SIDC/whoever a bad name and at worse have some *very* hefty legal and financial repercusions.

Regarding the point about phoning your mates for a drive, yes, if that resulted in an accident then the group and its constituent members would be labelled as irresponsible.

jaycee

Quote from Webmaster "The incident in question seemed to involve a large number of Scoobs in convoy (around 10?)..."

Quote from Pete Croney "The people involved thought that about 20 cars went through the junction..."

So how many was it?
I was on this meet and saw approximately 25 cars at the start, that would make the figures quoted above a high percentage of drivers in the wrong. I think this is highly unlikely.
Although there was some "spirited" driving on some roads I don't recall seeing anything that could have been construed as dangerous.

Getting out of bed can be dangerous!

Although I didn't see anything doesn't mean it didn't happen but it sounds more like a few moaning cyclists didn't like seeing cars on "their" road, a few noisy exhausts disturbing their tranquil country ride.

If anybody has substantiating evidence that something occurred then please bring it on or stop bitching.

Otherwise chill out,enjoy life and be safe.

Jason

ps I'm not trying to offend anybody just want to stick up for all the good guys that were on the meet and for Chris and Julie who put the effort into setting it up.

DazV

The scoob's reputation on the road was one of safety and performance and driven by safe drivers - its not any more.

The age of the Scoob now means its within the purchasing domain of the 'meat head' - those idot kids you see in their Escorts and Sierra's.

Everyone's up for a club meet and a safe drive to the local watering hole with their fellow scoob memebers, but we're gonna see more and not less of kids getting into trouble in their new Scoobs and giving us all a bad name.

RichiW

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by jaycee:
<B>I'm not trying to offend anybody just want to stick up for all the good guys that were on the meet and for Chris and Julie who put the effort into setting it up.[/quote]

Got to agree totally with Jaycee on this one,seems to me that everyone on the York run has been tarnished as irresponsible, i hate to imagine how Chris and Julie feel

To put a few things straight, regarding the type of driving that took place in the group that i was leading, if at anytime i had to overtake a slower moving vehicle, then i slowed down to an appropriate speed and waited, <B>within sight</B>, of the cars still behind said vehicle.When <B>all</B> the following cars had also overtaken, i then upped the pace back to "spirited" where we were making "good progress", but <B>not</B> endangering either ourselves or other road users.

At one point Jaycee dropped back quite a distance for no apparent reason, so i slowed down, and at the first safe opportunity pulled up to ask why.Jaycee simply said his brakes had become too warm, and that he felt that if needed to stop unexpectedly, he wouldn`t be able to.We then agreed to slow the pace down to a crawl, to allow Jaycees brakes to cool down, nobody at all objected, or said "sod this, i`m leaving you lot to dwindle around on your own, i`ve come to race my car and thats all i`m here for!" totally the opposite infact, though after reading this thread, you wouldnt have believed it

Thanks once again Chris and Julie, some of us really appreciate the time you gave up to run/organise such a good day out, unlike those who were`nt there and are simply acting/saying things upon hearsay

<B>oh, and i`m defently going on the next run!</B>

chelsie_uk

What about the bad guys who like to take your cars with out your permission, has any one thought they have access to a computer and this web address, your all telling them where your all going to be with your Scooby’s.

So the thieves get a gang together and take one of you off the road, bye bye Scooby,

The moral of my story is be carefull what you post on the boards, you don’t’ know who’s looking in.





[This message has been edited by chelsie_uk (edited 11 October 2001).]

SteveB

iTrader: (1)

Well, interesting reading to say the least !

As the SW organiser and having had 6 runs across Exmmoor and the 7th coming up on Sunday.
On previous runs we've tried various routes. Generally the problems we've had are when we've tried to run large groups along A road stretches that have involved other traffic. What tends to happen is after the 4th or 5th car overtakes, people get p*ssed off and then things become awkward for those at the back and then people take risks to keep up. Now we just stick to empty b roads.
A few rules we apply have also helped - Absolutley no pressure is upon anyone to try and drive beyond what they feel comfortable with. Everyone will wait for the person behind after making a turn at a T junction ensuring no one gets lost. Regular stops to regroup. Small groups on the road. Abide by all 30 and 40 mph limits. If a drivers feels he wants to go quicker than the person in front he flashes lights and goes past- no problem.

Steve.

ChrisB

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by chelsie_uk:
<B>What about the bad guys who like to take your cars with out your permission, has any one thought they have access to a computer and this web address, your all telling them where your all going to be with your Scooby’s.

So the thieves get a gang together and take one of you off the road, bye bye Scooby,

The moral of my story is be carefull what you post on the boards, you don’t’ know who’s looking in.
[/quote]

Take the Tour O'Derbyshire last Sunday. Nothing posted in public other than the fact it was in Derbyshire. Start point sent out by e-mail to people confirmed as attending and the route only given out at the start.

The way it should be done.

ChrisB.

Huge

I can't believe the over-reactions on here about organising group drives.

How the hell can a drive, organisation of which is co-ordinated via this BBS, land ScoobyNet in trouble? There is such a concept as individual responsibility. If one of my delivery drivers gets caught speeding / driving dangerously etc it isn't me or my company that gets prosecuted (unless we withhold his details obviously) but the driver himself even though we organise his daily routing.

Please can we stop flapping and just set some basic ground rules based on adherence to sensible 'rules of the road'.

Is the next move to ban ScoobySport & others from advertising on the BBS because they sell products that may boost the acceleration / speed capabilities of our cars??

Why not also ban posts about 0-60 times etc. Hey why not just ditch the BBS altogether?? Of course not. Let's have a sense of perspective. Don't allow one cretin to tarnish everyone else. One Bin Laden doesn't mean all Muslims are crazed terrorists. Oops, does this now mean that ScoobyNet will become the next terrorist target....??

C'mon let's get a grip.

Feeling particularly angry...

Hugh

DaveD

iTrader: (2)

It seems that one of the biggest problems the general public has with these events is the <I>perception</I> that all these cars are fast and dangerous.

Yes, I can imagine that the sight of several scoobys overtaking one after another <I>even if done so safely</I> could potentially upset people. <B>But</B> at the end of the day, in the vast majority of cases, it <B>is</B> all done safely, and in few moments the scoobs are gone. I would think that most people would get more stressed driving round town on a Saturday afternoon.

However, a case in point was the man we saw during the Tour of Derbyshire in Edale. I was in a convoy of 4 Scoobs and a Skoda, and we were all safely following a Golf (not part of the group) through some lanes, doing 25-30mph. We were well aware af all the hikers on the road (each to their own), but all this didn't stop one man jumping out the hedge, waving his arms and shouting "SLOW DOWN!!". Why? Because he saw all these fast cars "racing through the lanes".

Charlie H

I was also at the york meet last Sunday and must say most people seemed to be well behaved BUT I did over hear a couple of people (who shall remain nameless) bragging about hitting 120mph on some of the straights. I was never in one of the groups, I prefer to go at my own pace and only had a friend from Cambridge behind me in his scoob. I was VERY careful as my pregnant sister was in the car with me at the time (she loves the meets) and I would never take any risks with other peoples lives. Some of you may recall my moan about a scoob driver nearly hitting my girlfriend (now ex ) whilst out on her horse a month back and some of the scary replies I got from some people who obviously think they own the road. My point is, Chris and Julie made it VERY clear that speeding was not condoned and that everyone had a responsibility to watch out for the safety of other road users and observe the speed limits.
That said, I never even saw a group of cyclists on the drive, so it must have been the first section of the day because I went a slightly different route to Helmsley from everyone else (I used the route we took on the last York meet)

I have been on 4 scooby meets so far and there are always a few people who think it's a race but should we ban every meet because of this or just ban anyone who acts like a lunatic? I actually felt like reporting a guy in a rover whom I followed for a bit. Everytime he came to a left hand bend, he would move right across the road, into the opposite lane to take the bend. On one occasion he nearly collided with a silver car coming the other way that even I saw from about 100 metres away. I wish I had taken my camcorder with me like I normally do. I could have shown the police if/when they come around to speak to me.

It seems to me that even if everyone does behave themselves, you will always get someone complaining, just because they feel that their pace is right and you have no right overtaking them, especially a group of you. How many of you out there have overtaken someone pottering alomg on to subjected to abuse from them when you go past them? I did last month - another rover doing 40 in a 60 (3 cars behind him)for 3 miles, I overtake 4 cars on a clear straight because no one else would, only to find the same rover up my **** at 60 for the next 5 miles!!! Why????

You will never make everyone safe drivers but let's not start banning every meet. Name/shame/ban these people and let's get back to scoob drivers being known as safe drivers. (Head in clouds mode -ever the optimist )



[This message has been edited by Charlie H (edited 11 October 2001).]

LEE P

I think its all down to our word against theres, its happened to me before, travelling behind a old giffer at 40 mph in a 60 limit, pulled out and past him in a safe place kpept to the limit but he decided to flash and wave his fist. 4 days later the busys turned up at my home to tell me i had been reported for reckless driving, i couldnt even remember as i hadnt done anything. then it came back to me the old geezer flashing. the busys said it could go to court, and i said i would see him there as i was innocent, he said most people withdraw there complaint as he did once agreed it was no problem to go to court with this. i can imagine people associate noise with speed, specially some of the scoobs you get on these meets, roaring past cyclests and them being shaken. we were followed by the busys for quite a few miles on Nm6 and if we were doing something wrong by driving in a group surely he would of pulled us? cheers Lee

Chris Clayton

All,

I have learnt a few more facts about the
incident in question and all I can say is
that it is not a question of a single individual but more of a perception from a
group of cyclists.
Now it is probably true that 15-20 Impreza's going past at 70 mph with noisy exhausts
is going to be intimidating to cyclists at
the side of the road. I can remember the
cyclists as I passed and at no time did
I feel that we were endangering them. Again
its a concept of perception - the cyclists
thought we were going too fast (all 20 of us) and we thought we were driving at a
reasonable speed. If I am able to post the
e-mail received by SIDC from the cyclist I
will, but at the moment I don't know if that
is possible.
I suppose all of this has hightened the possibilities of what might happen etc etc
but as far as I know everyone on the meet
slowed down when they saw any hazards. I
was in one of the last groups on the run out
to Helmsley and we passed 2 groups of horses
and everyone slowed down and crawled past on
the opposite side of the road, getting a
friendly acknowledgement wave from the riders. If the previous 15 cars had blasted
past them I doubt we would have got such a
response.

Regards

Chris & Julie

banshi

What's this an element of common sense at last!!!

Dave, I was with the group at that time and am happy to confirm those details and add:

Whilst travelling behind, a Sport, a Skoda and Salsa (economy) King. Hardly the fastest point to point group you might find.

I encountered cyclists waving frantically for me to slow down. It was a wide straight uphill section of road, I automatically checked my speed.....slightly over 40!!!! I slowed because I assumed there was a hazard ahead there was none.

If they had contacted Scoobynet I can only conclude I would have been branded a reckless racer and excluded from the board and further meets.

Ian Griffiths

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by M_D_B:
<B> Gotta disagree with this. If I don't know someones driving style, I assume they're out to kill me and leave more room than someone I've driven with before, and none of those will describe me as a tailgater. Now, if only I could get everyone else on the road to do the same to me. I have been on several drives, and have driven the same way one each of them as I drive when I'm on my own.
Martin.[/quote]

That was almost my point, it of course takes experience to know this. Many drivers don't.

TonyNesta

How about this then as an alternative.....?

We keep the format of these very popular meets as is ie. meet up somewhere for a chat / ogle at cars etc. The organiser then tells the attendees where the meet will finish eg. a nice pub serving food etc. He hands out maps showing the current location, and the finishing location, BUT NO SUGGESTED ROUTE OR DIRECTIONS. People can leave when they're ready, and work out their own way there. This would hopefully reduce the 'convoy' effect, and the problem of people wanting to 'race' others. Attendees would have to work out their own route, and could choose whether to use M-ways, A-roads, B-roads etc.

Whaddya think ? Does this still constitute an 'organised group drive ? Is it within the guidelines laid down by SIDC and Scoobynet ?

T

TonyNesta

Sorry, double post.

[This message has been edited by TonyNesta (edited 13 October 2001).]

CharlieWhiskey

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:<HR>Originally posted by TonyNesta:
<B>How about this then as an alternative.....?

We keep the format of these very popular meets as is ie. meet up somewhere for a chat / ogle at cars etc. The organiser then tells the attendees where the meet will finish eg. a nice pub serving food etc. He hands out maps showing the current location, and the finishing location, BUT NO SUGGESTED ROUTE OR DIRECTIONS. People can leave when they're ready, and work out their own way there. This would hopefully reduce the 'convoy' effect, and the problem of people wanting to 'race' others. Attendees would have to work out their own route, and could choose whether to use M-ways, A-roads, B-roads etc.

Whaddya think ? Does this still constitute an 'organised group drive ? Is it within the guidelines laid down by SIDC and Scoobynet ?

T[/quote]

NO! Someone will spot a good route and everyone else will follow in a large group.

This sort of thing needs to be organised & controlled, not banned!