davyboy

Well I for one, really respect the honest and frank reply. Thanks for taking the time.

Neil Smalley

Jonathan,

Thanks for adding your insight into what is clearly a very complex situation.

Those who were affected by this are probably better off going through personal channels to Bedford direct, and the SIDC to get any complaints resolved.

A gentle reminder that any potentially libellous posts will be removed and will more than likely make it much less likely that a satisfactory outcome for all parties will be achieved.

Although I did'nt attend I do enjoy Bedford as a venue and I hope this issue can soon be resolved.

carl

Top marks to Jonathan for explaining the situation. Hope this can all be resolved -- though it's difficult to see what the XTR boys can do to remedy their problem.

EvilBevel

It doesn't get much sadder than this on the internet, no ?

Feel free to delete

Theo

davyboy

www.brown-nose.com

Neil Smalley

Theo.

EvilBevel

Davyboy, that is potentially libelous !

EvilBevel

Neil,

If in doubt, read my post again to appreciate how *exactly* I value your contribution. Only a personal appreciation mind, possibly libelous, so delete if felt appropriate.

Cheers,

Theo

davyboy

Is it oh well...........sue me..............

Well I suggest we are not treated like school children then.

Nothing posted has been anything other than resposible feedback, even though emotions have been running high.

EvilBevel

I would fully agree, honestly, but it seems that currently common sense (and real discussion) has been thrown out of the window, together with adult debate

Just throw the word "libel" into it, and we all should just shut up.

I find that shocking BTW.

ARRON BIRD

It I hadnt kicked up in the first place along with a few others it probably wouldnt of even taken place
I would say keep the money if only 20 cars were there.
Good way of boosting the SIDC bank balance and a cracking way of reducing mine!
I have tried to ask nicely and firk all!
Wish I`d paid on my Visa now!

ARRON BIRD

Neil I would say I have a pretty genuine case wouldnt you

Neil Smalley

I think that you should take the matter up with Bedford and the SIDC, and take legal advice if you want to. And share with us the outcome and advice you've been given.

If it were me I would be very annoyed and would be taking the matter whatever route was required to get a satisfactory result.

EvilBevel

Neil, nice rolleyes.

However.

Would you say that CraigH or igratton (hippy for the old timers) are just people stirring up **** ?

I don't have any beef with either Bedford, SIDC, Palmersport, or the pope, but frankly I'm getting totally FED UP with this libel ****. It's not big, and it ****ing kills this BBS.

I'm sure both SIDC and Palmersport are big enough to read between the lines.

This is a BBS, not a court of law.

CraigH

Jonathon,

Thank you so much for replying to this post.

We have a totally std Westfield XTR2. It failed your noise test marginally.

We modified the induction (ie covered up the air scoop with duct tape, all air vents etc) - and one of YOUR instructors took it out for the noise test - and passed by 3-4 decibels.

Yet we took it out not minutes later and it failed.

Please explain??

And your comments of trying to cheat the system - I find that an incredibly arrogant and insulting comment.

We have a STANDARD Westfield XTR2. With Catalyser, main and secondary silencer. It passes SVA with EASE. Westfields own demo car has been at your complex numerous times and passed.

A poster on here had his std (bar exhaust) STI 5 Impreza banned for being to noisy. Yet an identical car with identical exhaust passed with ease.

I think you are trying to proportion the blame to others who are blameless.

You may have had your day disturbed - we had worked the entire week for this day and had ours ruined, not disturbed.

As to your comments about identifying personally the cars causing a problem - I believe you arrived after we started packing up.

Your comment about not welcoming cars that are marginal.

From that I assume you would class that as our XTR2, most Imprezas with a performance exhaust, EVO's, Skylines, most TVRs especially AJP's, Elises and Exiges fitted with sports exhausts, all Caterhams and Westfields - and that's off the top of my head.

I'm very disappointed by your attitude.

Especially considering the history of cars that are supposed to have passed.

I for one will not be attending your complex again, which is a shame as I've been there 4 times before. I have a genuine SVA'd quiet car without "noisy exhaust to impress people on road" - I will certainly not commission an expensive new ultra silent system on the off chance that it may enable the car to attend Bedford, when it has no problems with any other circuit in the UK.

i believe the saying is "Your loss, not mine"

Neil Smalley

Theo.

I think you misunderstand where i'm coming from. I've mailed you an explanation.

SN is now a haven for people stirring things up for the hell of it. Everyone on this thread has been constructive and helpful, that's not to say that it won't be invaded by idiots and my initial post was directed at those stirrers.

I dunno, somedays you can't win you get moaned at for not acting quickly enough and ensuring the quality of threads, then you get moaned at for being procative

ARRON BIRD

Neil I`d like you to comment on my position.

Neil Smalley

I did. I was'nt there and only know what I read. I will not comment on something I only know about based on comments I read on this or any BBS.

As I said I, if it were me I would feel very confused about that happened and would take whatever action I felt appropriate to get a resolution.


[Edited by Neil Smalley - 12/4/2002 10:45:40 PM]

ARRON BIRD

Thankyou

Fat Boy

With you all the way Craig. Although I applaud the effort in coming on here to state your side of the story, Jonathan, I find the dismissive manner in which it was done unfortunate to say the least. I have paid good money to use your excellent facilities several times in the past,and now, with no change in my car's specification, I have become one of those trying to "fool" the system? I don't think so.

I'm far from happy that a moving of the goalposts from your people, or yourself, on the noise limit front, suddenly placed many drivers who have supported your facility many times, both in terms of driving and in terms of encouraging other drivers to try it, out of bounds.

I don't appreciate the inference that any of us with sports exhausts are Max Power type boy racers either. If your intention was to alienate a large proportion of us , congratulations you've achieved it.

All the above is purely my opinion, and clearly is not intended to represent a "Scoobynet view".

[Edited by Fat Boy - 1/6/2004 10:38:30 PM]

Phil

Aaron

I don't see why you are getting all upset.

You booked and paid for an event.

AT VERY LATE NOTICE you want a refund because you don't have a car

You have been asked by Lisa to be paitent and wait for a response from Palmer Sport

Now less than 4 days after the event your getting agrevated

YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD YOU WILL NOT GET A REFUND ........YET

As for the SIDC lining there pockets

If you book and pay for something and then can't go you do not have an automatic right for a refund

As I have said before the club is working with Bedford and as soon as we have a result you will be informed

If your then unhappy with the result then feel free to have a go

Phil

Neil Smalley

I never said you can't complain or debate it, nor did I say that anyone had posted anything dodgy.

In fact the tone, as has been said is respectful and constructive. However all it takes is 1 or 2 stirrers to change what is a positive thread into a complete nightmare for all involved. That's what I'm trying to pre-empt.

E.g How would you feel if you had almost reached a deal with Bedford and the SIDC etc etc and some plank posts something up on here which throws the entire deal? You'd feel very miffed and annoyed and quite rightly. This is the situation i'm trying to avoid.

IMHO that it's better to negociate these things with the people directly involved rather than subject your stance to the speculative whims of a few people and therefore possibly jeopordise your chances of a fair resolution.

If you want go ahead and try and resolve it in public, then I won't stop you. But in my experience in negociations you don't usually let the other party know what route you are taking in advance

As to the tone of the response from Bedford I was'nt there and so therefore can't comment. I do know that the response has left lots of people with lots of questions.

Hopefully JP will revisit this thread and answer some of them for us.

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 12/4/2002 11:27:27 PM]

[Edited by Neil Smalley - 12/4/2002 11:29:29 PM]

CraigH

Neil,

I'm not trying to resolve it in public. Have spoke to Bedford and SIDC direct about it.

I'm questioning Mr Palmers comments that people like me and Ian were trying to dodge Palmers noise testing.

And I find, as is obvious, his comments that he was put out on a saturday insulting. and then theres the inference that having a loud exhaust means you're trying to impress people

Is there anything louder than an F1 car?

CraigH

Neil,

Forgot to say...

What' IS your experience in negotiations? Bend over and hope for the best?

Pavlo

Very nice to see comment from the horses mouth.

I still think dropping the limit was a mistake.

If people are trying to beat the system, all the lower noise limit will do is penalise the people that are just driving 100% and between 85db and 87db.

If kart clubs around the country can afford to put 15ft high banks all round a 1km circuit, I am sure a multi-million pound outfit like Palmersport can do something.

It's also worth pointing out that just because a car is tolerable noisewise on the road, it doesn't mean that putting 20 cars in the same place running near constantly doesn't make a shedload of noise, cause it does.

Paul

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

I think that Neil has taken a sensible step on the (to be honest) unusual step of JP actually coming on here & stating his case, unlike many people/organisations, such as IM. Given some of the previous history of this subject, it could all too easily become a slanging match. I believe that Neil took the right move in posting just a gentle reminder to people with short fuses to think before they posted.

SN is a place for discussion, not abuse.

Going back to the debate...

Isn't there a reason why bikes aren't there on a regular basis? To do with the noise that they emit? Might that be the (possible) reason why the XTR didn't pass noise? Just something stirring the back of my beer filled memory...

johnfelstead

Thankyou for the response Jonathan, please read mine.

The only noise tests drivers were subjected to, prior to going on track and prior to your intervention at 10am, was the static noise test, carried out at the circuit entrance by your staff as we arived. No one cheated this test, i myself tested at 99.9db (A) which was under the 101db (A) limit set by your own standards. All the cars on track at 10am had passed your initial noise tests. From talking to all the people i managed to on the day, no one set about to deliberately flout any noise limits.

We were informed after procedings stopped, that sound meters were linked to the council, and that they were being tripped by some of the cars, so by definition, the cars who you say were cheating deliberately, could not have been the ones tripping the meters. I hope you are following my logic!

To write the way you have about people who had no intention to cause you or other people driving that day any dificulties is unfair and inacurate!

My own car passed your drive by tests on full throttle with no problems, yet cars that seemed much quieter, failed this same test. Again, the assumption you made that people were deliberately flouting noise regs is incorect, many of these same people had driven at bedford in the past with no issues using the same exhaust systems.

Two things i have to say from this. Firstly, this aplication of a lower noise limit caused people who had legitimate vehicles on track to fail on noise, yet they passed your published noise limits. They should be fully refunded, as by definition, once again they were not deliberately breaking, and indeed did not break any limits you had pre-published for the days activities. Secondly, a 2db (A) drop in noise level is significant (3db (A) is double), you should be more than aware of the issues a 2db (A) drop will cause people, as you would have had to go through the pain of when the MSA dropped race noise limits a few years ago, i know it took some major re-engineering of the V8 esprit GT cars silencer systems i run in MSA events, to cope with that change, it isnt a minor change to make.

You should have been particularly sensitive to any mid engined vehicles, and how that would affect those vehicles and allowed some flexibility in the aplication of this extra 2db (A) lower limit in the case of the XTR2 westfield, which was passing your initial set limit and failing by just 0.5db (A) of your new limit. The way this was handled in particular is unaceptable based on the knowledge you should posses of this kind of vehicle.

I am very very disapointed in your attitude and assumptions made in your response to the issues from last weekend.

I thought Bedford was a wonderfull facility, i was disapointed that i didnt get to run the full GT track at all, due to building work that wasnt published to me, prior to my arival (not ideal to inform people after arival that they are not getting what they paid for). I was disapointed that the course was shortened to aid in eliminating some of the noise issues to the village, due to the conditions on the day, i did understand why that had to happen, and everyone accepted that. I am most disapointed in your attitude to the people who attended on the day, it would have been courteous at least to take 5 minutes to talk to the people affected by your off the cuff decision, and even more sensible to apply your own knowledge to the case of the XTR2, a slight amount of flexibility would not have left such a bad taste in many peoples mouths, yet you would still have had vehicles under the required noise levels running on track.

regards
john felstead

Josh L

Craig, Fat Boy and others.

I'm afraid I must beg to differ with you over the 'cheats'. We all know that some of the cars are marginal on noise, and we all know that a good proportion of drivers keep the revs down on the static tests 'just to be on the safe side'. It was equally obvious that some cars weren't using full throttle past the first drive-by microphone.

Whilst I appreciate your anger/disappointment etc, I thought it was good of JP to pass comment, and I certainly didn't think he implied that everyone that failed had tried to cheat. Bedford's noise regs are well known and, IMHO, it's a miracle that some of those wastepaper bin sized boxes I saw on Saturday could pass anyone's tests. I'm amazed they generate enough back pressure to start.

However, I can't help but sympathise with drivers who'd passed previously, and yet failed on Saturday, and with the likes of Craig/Hippy.

Josh

johnfelstead

Josh, backpresure has no relevence to sound levels. You can build a silent system with no loss in flow over a loud system if you try hard enough. That is very hard to achieve on a mid engined vehicle however, quite easy on a front engined vehicle. But that isnt the point here.

I would also like to add, the comment jonathan made about their Impreza's being 80db (A) has no relevence whatsoever. What mattered was that the cars met the 87db (A) limit, if we choose to run above standard noise levels, yet below the venue noise limit, then that is our choice and does not have to be explained or justified to anyone, Mr Palmer included.

TonyG

Firstly, thanks to Jonathon Palmer for taking the time to explain the situation on the day. I can understand that he is running a commercial venture and also has to have a good relationship with the local population. I'd also like to point out that if it weren't for people like him willing to invest time and money in such ventures, then we would not be able to enjoy our cars to the full in relative safety (either at Bedford or at the many other venues around the country).
However, I feel I must comment on the 'cheating the system' comment as I was somewhat involved with the attempt of getting one of the noisier cars onto the track. My car passed the noise test comfortably, however Simon Burton's failed. After a quick discussion we decided to swap backboxes to see if this would make a difference, and allow both cars to pass. Before doing this, we checked with Palmersport representatives that we could try this out, and that we would subject both cars to an additional drive by noise test. The backboxes were duly changed (thanks to the efforts of the Tyres Northampton crew on-site), and Simon's was once more tested. Since it failed, we replaced my backbox on my car, and I continued with the session. Simon did not.
What we were trying to do was not 'cheat the system' but to ensure that both our cars complied with the noise regulations on the day, resulting in two happy drivers, rather than just one.