mutant_matt

Jonathan,

Firstly, many thanks for taking the trouble to personally state your side of the story on this bbs. Many people in your position would not have bothered. Having said that, I find that attitude you show towards the peolpe who attended rather dismissive and arrogant. As people have said, people that have attended in the past that have made no changes to their vehicles failed on Saturday. To infer that these people are somehow "cheats" is ridiculous. If your own staff conducted a drive by noise test by driving the vehicle themselves and the vehicle passed, how is it then possible that the same vehicle later failed when being driven by it's owner? How does this make the owner a "cheat"?

You also state that the decision was taken to drop the noise limit:If this is the case, this will always be an issue at any event @ Bedford so why did you choose to apply it this time and not at any of the previous SIDC arranged Track days in the past?

As a point of interest, presumably due to the Westerly wind, the residents of Thurleigh are the peolpe that complained and not the Milton Ernest residents? Is it always Thurleigh that is effected (due to their close proximity to the circuit) or is it Milton Ernest sometimes also? Have you investigated the possibility of errecting some kind of sound deadening/limiting equipment to help solve this issue? They use these at Heathrow to good effect!

Reagrds,

Matthew Collier.

Jonathan Palmer

I am not going to reply to everything, but will respond to a few points made.

Firstly banking. Pavlo thinks that if kart tracks can put up 15ft banking, so could we. We can. But to be effective, banking needs to be as close to the track as possible. Banking on kart tracks, which require minimal run off areas, is very close to the track. If we put banking that close, there would be a lot more more car damage from offs. With the majority of our activities being our own corporate days, which are famous for the amount of freedom we give guests, the damage cost would be enormous, the business unviable and safety compromised. You all appreciate the big run off areas too, but the flip side is that cars need to be relatively quiet. I suspect those who happily pass our noise tests prefer the balance as it lies.

I do not permit bike track days following one first such event that was run in 2001. Despite underlining the importance of our noise limits, we had many complaints within hours, as a result of some bikes being too noisy, having initially cheated the noise tests, and bunching up. So no more bike days, which is a shame because the track is ideal. Having said that, many standard big bikes were absolutely fine on noise; again it was those who put cans on etc that created the trouble.

I have no doubt the Westfield XTR2 could have been prepared to be comfortably inside our noise limit, as can any mid-engined car. It just takes a bit more ingenuity with silencer packaging. I recall that the similarly engined Radical SR3 was significantly quieter than our 87 dB(A) limit.

I do appreciate that some vehicles might have run without problems before, but that the adverse weather conditions on Saturday (from the noise point of view) put the whole issue into a much sharper focus. I suspect some that were marginal were not identified before, which I agree is misleading, but doesn't mean they should be permitted to run in future.

John Felstead thinks it was discourteous not to come and take 5 minutes speaking to people. I was on an extremely tight schedule. Does anyone really think that to come along to the pits and be seen as being courteous would have only taken 5 minutes? I suspect that had I visited, I still would have been responding to argument an hour later, and any attempt to leave earlier would have provoked criticism for being rude. Felstead says my point about Evos running within 80 dB(A) is irrelevant. I say not. It proves 280 bhp at least can be run well within our noise limits. And no John, you don't need to explain or justisfy your choice to run close to our 87 dB(A) limit. The problem is though that you will run a much greater risk of being in breach of our limit and I suspect that you have no way of checking how close you actually are to it before you come to Bedford. Are you able to run a 20m, hard acceleration drive-by test somewhere convenient to check the level before you visit?

JoshL's post is among the realistic, sensible responses, which is heartening to see. I think it is insulting however that some appear not to accept the fact that some drivers and cars were flouting the drive-by test - it was plainly obvious and should be recognised.

At the end of the day, it is your choice. I will always be receptive to constructive comment on how we can improve what we do and provide. But I have had 10 years of heavy experience dealing with not just noise issues from circuit operation and planning permissions, but also running a lot of high performance cars intensively, so I do believe I know what I am talking about.

If SIDC members want to operate like the other 99% of circuit use, within our noise limits, I will welcome you back. If not, I would prefer you spend your money elsewhere. I suspect there will be some members who are keen to re-attend and respect our rules and others who are not. Clearly we are going to be very concerned about any future interest in SIDC bookings because of the very mixed views and like you, we will be considering carefully whether this is business we really want in future, as we did with the bikes.

ARRON BIRD

Phil I was told on Saturday that I would have a reply from someone on Monday this week???
I think if the shoe was on the other foot you would be a little fed up with not hearing anything???
At least some people had a chance to drive for a few laps!!! for their £175.
Shambles me think

ARRON BIRD

Must just be me being unreasonable again.
Me and anyone called Palmers
Might have known it would go **** up!!!!

Pavlo

Jonathan,

'something' need not be limited to banks, rather to spend the time and money on ensuring the Bedford venue is able to continue running as a popular top class venue.

When the next round of 'action' from local residents kicks off, will you lower the limit again? How long can this be sustained? What's going to happen over the next 3-5 years? I don't think this is an oversight, as I am sure you have thought about this.

Essentially, if 87db is the limit, then enforce it as such.

From what has been said about the XTR, it was running at 85.5db, which is actually inside the limit. I think it's rather patronising indeed to say that clever silencer packaging can bring the car within the limit, when it appears to already be so, with a 1.5db margin.

Given that staff and nominated drivers were used to test cars individually, I fail to see how it was necessary to change the goal posts.

If you want reasoned debate and useful feedback, perhaps a better start could have been made than to just have people sent home with no better explaination that "yer out".

Paul

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

I don't believe that anyone, who was a victim of noise regs, has yet been told that they cannot have a refund either by BA or the SIDC...

CraigH

James you are right.

Mr Palmer,

I was disappointed by your first post and am disappointed again now.

Please tell me - you had Westfields XTR2 on track with no trouble at all. Yet we are expected to be "more ingenius" with silencer packaging to get on your circuit as YOU chose to lower the noise limit? Our car was totally standard as I've said. No "big exhausts to impress other people".

In future, let's just say we have a bespoke system made that has a noise level of 85db. And we turn up on the day and you lower the limit again. Is there anything to stop you doing that?

Dave T-S

So, the actions of the few potentially spoil it for the majority.....surely not!

NOTE - I wasn't there, I don't do trackdays in my Impreza at the moment, so I don't have an axe to grind, and aren't pointing the finger at *anyone* - and as such can make an IMHO and impartial comment.....

This reminds me of (and is not totally unconnected to) the trackdays/heavily modded cars/warranties issue.......ultimately the people that do not try to abuse their warranties will suffer there too....

Jeff Wiltshire

Firstly, I must say how impressed I am that JP has taken the time to responded to the posts on this thread. I, for one, had a good time at Bedford on Saturday (with the exception of standing around while the 1 at a time noise tests where done) and I would go back. I was running a car which made the noise limit easily and was producing 330BHP.

I was not aware of anyone trying to 'cheat' the system but then I wasn't looking at the noise monitors. There where a number of vehicles there on Saturday which did sound very loud when they where in the pits so I'm not surprised that there where issues with noise once the circuit was open.

Let's not lose sight of what a good venue Bedford is and that a large number of cars did not have a problem with the noise limit.


Jeff

Phil

Aaron

I can only reiterate that JohnB and Pete are trying to resolve the matter

The matter is obvoiusley taking a little longer than expected


Edited as Pete Responded further down.

Phil



[Edited by phil_stephens - 12/5/2002 11:40:57 AM]

[Edited by phil_stephens - 12/5/2002 11:43:32 AM]

Diesel

JP

We value your feedback here and its great to see someone so clearly committed to their business communicating with a very disgruntled lot. Your business is probably the SIDC members' favourite track and it would be good to resolve this issue to both our benefit and future enjoyment.

Having enjoyed many previous days with you I was thrown off the track on this occasion (despite passing all tests with the exact same car & systems).

I think the key to helping avoid this is to have an open flexible and clear policy in place regarding noise. You request us to ‘respect (y)our rules’ and I do believe 100% of the members arrive to do this. No one was turned away at the gate, but when you changed your rules half way through the day, this is where the problems started. We felt you were not respecting us, and were dismissing us like naughty schoolchildren sent to bed with no pocket money!

I think the policy could be that if you have to protect your licence/community goodwil by ending someone’s expensive track day for environmental condition reasons this should be made anticipatable (call before you leave?) ; if it happens half way through the day a clear refund policy should be in place.

No one wants to argue with you, but likewise no one wants to visit a track they know, and understand the noise rules of just to be thrown off unexpectedly and not seem to be offered a refund.

Now your policy is becoming clear, and we get to understand your position, we can work with you – most of us chaps that have ‘noisy’ exhausts (for quicker turbo spool up reasons more than pose ) still have the original backbox. I would have slipped this on in 10 mins to allow me to continue, had I known…

Lets hope we can solve this and get together at your great track again, like so many times before...

D Diesel Evans

Pete Croney

Aaron

The problem is not so much that you tried to cancel, but that you turned up and registered on the day and are not one of the drivers who was excluded for noise reasons.

We are speaking to Bedford and the desicion will be theirs.

5903

I had a great day with no noise probelms and will be going back !

Running a 305bhp PPP'd STI7.

Nils

Neil Smalley

Gossy

If people want to read it they can always register

gossythevaleter

True but i like to help if i can

davyboy

Good ol' Internet rumour, I am sure this will really help.

Puff The Magic Wagon!

iTrader: (2)

Was that the lovely Liz?

I doubt she'd've said that...

mutant_matt

Chaps,

I have posted another thread in General which is basically a survey to see who passed and who didn't. They may help us guage what will and won't pass in the future (if there is one for us @ Bedford ).

http://www.scoobynet.co.uk/bbs/threa...hreadID=156553

If you could post, it may help...

Ta,

Matt

Redkop

Dave....Sean Bicknell is not the type to start an 'internet rumour' he would only relay what was said to him.

I also feel that the female he spoke to needs to liaise with her superiors as to what the actual db level is, as she appears to be a little confused!

Quote:

The official noise limits are:

Static 99db

Driveby 85.5db

She said these were the same limits that have been in force all year

johnfelstead

The XTR2 was within the 87db (A) limit, the reason it was excluded from running was 100% down to your decision to drop the noise limit to 85db (A). You have not accepted that as the problem in this particular case.

Yes, I do think it is discourteous, based on the fact you chose to change the conditions of participating in the day’s activities. You should have taken the time to assess what an impact that decision would have on your clients.

Calling me Felstead, is rude, Mr. or John would be more acceptable.

What other vehicles run is irrelevant to the decision to exclude or allow to run. You run within the rules set, if you meet those rules set, you are entitled to participate. I could run the car at 86db (A) static if I chose to, I choose not to, the only thing that matters when you are set rules and regulations, is that you meet those rules and regulations. You analogy is like trying to chastise McLaren for trying to run closer to the edge of the construction rules than Ferrari, it means nothing when you come to post event scrutineering. You should understand that.

That is my choice, I accept the risk. You presume too much Mr. Palmer. I drive regularly on tracks throughout the UK and Europe, I drive the Nurburgring on average every 6 weeks. When I am traveling any great distance, I take adequate spares and supplies with me, including a standard backbox, should I fail any noise tests I could install this. I have 20 years active motorsport involvement, this includes building and running some of the highest power/weight prototype racecars ever used in the UK. I prototyped the engine used in the MGX land speed record car driven by Andy Green in the USA. One of my closest friends was racing Can Am McLaren's before you were ever sat behind the wheel of a race car, he also built the Le Mans winning GT40 engines and worked for JW Automotive during their GT40, Porsche 917 and Mirage prototype programmes. I do have access to noise meters should I feel the need to test, I also have access to test venues to carry out a drive by test. Don’t assume because we are driving our road cars on trackdays, we don’t know motorsport, or the engineering that requires. You are deflecting from the main issue that caused people problems, that of you changing the regulations on the day.

Correct, it is our choice to sail close to the edge. When we meet your pre defined rules, then you subsequently change those regulations, you need to accept that this has to be recompensed. I think I know a little about the subject too. This has no relevance to the affects of your actions.

I would just like to point out, I was not one of the people who was prevented from running on the day, I am saying what I am saying, because you are not accepting you are responsible for ruining some peoples fun, (this is supposed to be fun isn’t it?) and you are dismissive of the level of knowledge and effort people invest in their very serious hobbies.

Phil

Jesus John

WOW I am impressed [and no I am not being sarcastic]

Phil

johnfelstead

I am not interested in impressing people, i am interested in Mr. Palmer accepting that his actions caused serious problems for genuine enthusiast's who were not out to cheat anyone. I am particularly interested in the real issue not being deflected by how knowledgable or otherwise people are percieved to be.

Jeff Wiltshire

Although to be fair I'm not sure that the section regarding your best mate is relevant to the discussion.

The real issue appears to be the unilateral reduction in the limit from the published db (A) to 85 db (A). This is surely a change in the Terms & Conditions and therefore if cars failed to meet the required 'new' standard then the drivers should be refunded the cost of the event. This strikes me as being the only fair solution to the issue.


Jeff

Phil

OPPPS

I WAS NOT BEING SARCASTIC BUT GENUINELY IMPRESSED



SORRY

johnfelstead

no need Phil, i know you are being genuine. I just put my reason for posting that info.

Diablo

From a legal perspective, looking at the published terms and conditions:-

Terms and Conditions

Prior to the commencement of the event, all guests will be asked to sign a disclaimer of liability, the terms of which are available on request. Until a participant has signed such a disclaimer he/she will not be permitted to participate in the event.

You must hold a full and valid driving licence which is recognised in the UK and bring it with you on the day of your event.

Your vehicle must meet the noise regulations governing the site.
The noise limits are shown here.

Static 4500rpm @ 05.m @ 45° 101db

Drive By @ 20m 87.5 dB

You must listen to all briefings and safety instructions given.

Throughout the event you must adhere to any instructions, flags, signals or warnings given to you by any member of PalmerSport staff, their agents or hosts running the day.

Unless otherwise clearly stated you will be driving your own vehicle which must be in a good, roadworthy condition and will not cause concern over safety when driven at high speeds around the circuit.

You must not be reckless, dangerous or purposely intimidating to other track users.

You must only use the track when allowed and instructed to do so. At any other time the track is strictly out of bounds.

Helmets must be worn whenever you are driving around circuit - these are usually available as a paid-for option from staff on the day.

Due to the limited availability of spaces on these dates please note that if you are unable to attend on the date you have booked we will be unable to offer a refund or alternative.

Prices, availability and number of places are liable to change and we withhold the right to cancel an event and refund your money or offer you a different date.

Events are run in all weather but we may have to cancel or shorten an event in the case of extreme weather conditions or very heavy fog due to safety issues. The decision to do this will normally only be taken on the day of the event and the decision will be binding and final.

PalmerSport staff and their agents reserve right of entry. All drivers must be deemed fit to drive.

Any breach of any of these terms and conditions might result in you being asked to leave the circuit without refund. E & OE.

It is absolutely clear.

Anyone excluded due to the revised noise limits, but who was originally allowed entry on the published noise limits is, without doubt, not in breach of the regs and is entitled to a refund by Bedford Autodrome.

You cannot unilaterally change a contractural agreement unless the terms of that agreement provide for that eventuality.

Bedfords terms and conditions do not provide for that.

So, Mr Palmer, anyone excluded after you changed the limits should be fully refunded. Indeed, there may be grounds for a claim for costs/expenses incurred, but thats a supplimentary issue.

D

Diablo

Phil - no witch hunt from me.

JP failed to comment on the refund issue, despite being asked to do so.

It shouldn't be a case of "negotiation". Its clear cut - there is nothing to negotiate for those who were excluded after the limits came down.

Leaving aside any personal feelings anyone may have, it is somewhat unprofessional of any commercial organisation to change the goalposts after accepting payment on grounds outwith their own published terms.

Which is what appears to have happened here.

D

Mellow Yellow !

iTrader: (1)

Erm........

Did I mention some cracking deals on some up coming trackdays peeps

Oulton Park 17th Dec..... open pit £75 www.track-action.co.uk (See you there )

Donnington Park also open pit and £75 for 8th (I'm there) 15th and 29th (at this one too) ring Jane on 01332 - 819503

And keep checking the trackday forum for lots more I'm posting/negotiating for scoobynetters/SIDC'ers at reduced rates

REMEMBER..........these circuits need us !!! not us them !!!

It takes a long time to gain a good reputation and only a fraction to lose it

Very dissapointing to see Johnathan contemplating closing the door on the SIDC as a club...... especially when we all seem to have friends ,aquaintencies and affiliations with numerous other clubs !

Neil Arrowsmith

Why all the fckuing whinging.
I still did over 130 track miles and left at 3pm as my wife was waiting for me in a hotel in Kent for a night away with friends.
Running STI7 with standard Brembo,s and a set of tyres that had done 1 previous Bedford & 10000 miles. Mind you the Pads now look a little low & the 2 front tyres are fcuked.
I still enjoyed, Neil.
ps Its great when there are so many cars booked in, but so few seem to go out on track often.

Diesel

How totally fascinating Also I think you'll find the whinging pretty justified!