johnfelstead

Neil, are you really that self centred?

There is a serious issue being discussed here, just because your day was OK doesnt mean everyone elses was.

Phil

Red Rag and Bull Springs to mind Neil

As said this thread has in the main remained calm and sensible

Lets hope it stays that way and comonsense prevails

Phil

Fat Boy

Tell you what then. Why don't you read the thread and then give us the benefit of your comments?

"I wonder why so few cars were on track"!!!!!

gregh

Interesting debate, and I'm glad that Mr Palmer has taken the time to post on here.

I wasn't there and can see both sides of the arguments, and I hope this can be sorted out.

I do agree that changing the noise limit on the day is not 'best practise' - maybe Mr Palmer can learn from this aspect.

I think some people are taking Mr Palmers comments too personally, from the track days I have attended people are wise enough to 'lift off' when passing noise meters, I think this is one example of what he is referring to.

Interesting that certain facts come to the fore as well:-

>> Aaron - The problem is not so much that you tried to cancel,
>> but that you turned up and registered on the day

Aaron - every other trackday company has a policy that if you book and then cancel you don't get any money back, let alone booking, turning up, registering and then trying to get your money back!

Claudius

The Mitsubishi Lancer Register is aware of the strict rules and problems caused by Jon Palmer's "Bedford Autodrome".

There are tracks in the UK that are much more suited to enjoy the advantages of a permanent AWD system than "Bedford Autodrome".

I will be going to the Nürburgring next year and also hope to attend a few trackdays in the UK and meet all you friendly English car freaks!

You wont see me at the "Bedford Autodrome" though.

Follow Mellow's advice, have fun

Claudius

Steve vRS

LOL At Mellow "un-subliminal advertising" Yellow. See you at Dono.

Steve

TaviaRS

Two pennies worth from a Skoda driver:

Yes, I was there, and yes I was allowed out to drive as mine is quiet and yes I had a good day, did over 150 miles and enjoyed it.

However, I was disappointed to have spent that amount of money for what was essentially half a day's track time. As has been pointed out the noise limits were clearly defined before hand and yes we were all given a static noise test on arrival and subsequently issued with a sticker to say we had passed. To then drop the noise limit by almost half is not acceptable, especially at what is a purposed designed facility. No real explanation was given at the time other than residents had complained, it was only later than I found out about the reduction.

Mr Palmer, thank you for coming on and stating your position, it was a brave thing to do, most people wouldn't have bothered. Another however, I feel that your comments are a trifle dismissive of people who are you customers. As John F has pointed out, a lot of people do this as a hobby and are fully aware of the limits and what is and is not acceptable. They do have an understanding of the issues and your reply was a tad patronising. Remember, unlike a lot of corporate clients, a good number of us do go on track days regularly and spend not inconsiderable sums in doing so, do you really want to alienate current and future customers by arbitrarily dropping noise limits?

Mellow, yes I've booked for Oulton

To those that "failed" the noise test, you have my full and unreserved sympathy. I personally will not be using Bedford again, I'll stick to going to the Ring and, maybe, try some other UK tracks in future.

DocJock

First SIDC day at Bedford that I have missed.

I am sorry to say, I am another who won't be bothering to come back Mr Palmer.
Your decision to arbitrarliy reduce your noise limit by 2dB was obviously reasonable from your point of view.

Well from my point of view, I would have been bringing a car which has sailed through every noise test at every previous SIDC day (and a couple of others) at your establishment.
If I had prepped this car, left home at 06:00 and then been told I couldn't play because you had "lowered the limit" I would have appreciated an explanation from the person who had just wasted my whole day.
I would also have expected an offer of a full refund there and then, not to have to wait for the result of "discussions".

Hoppy

This argument is all about political correctness and as I have said earlier, you can't win against that one.

Truth is, JP is forced to side with the locals or he doesn't have a business. I'm sure he personally enjoys the sound of a nice loud exhaust as much as we do.

Best regards,

Richard.

Diesel

Richard this argument is NOT about 'political correctness'. It is about deceiving a whole lot of people that they could enjoy a trackday, and then move the goalposts so that they couldn't. You can't promise someone something, get the cash, and then withdraw the offer. The 'atmospherics' are their concern alone.

We pay someone to manage our event and supply the track having a clear understanding of THEIR rules. We stick to the rules and then they get changed, torpedoing so many of us...

It is not your/my place to sympathise with a commercial concern's problem - apply that logic to any other supplier and it would seem only fair. ...supply a product that is fit for the purpose it is sold...

You wouldn't build a creche next to a disco and then moan would you?

D

CraigH

Neil,

You haven't had time to read all the posts yet you can still comment about "all the fvcking whinging"

How about you read all the posts and then post rather than come out with an off the cuff comment.


Hoppy,

I don't think there's anything political. If what others are saying is correct, it seems quite apparent that our car passed Bedfords published limits, but as they chose to lower them by almost half, it failed - slightly.

I wonder why we bothered to pay for a supposed "premium" day at Bedford when we could have had 2 days at Donington - which are hardly inferior

But, if after Mr Palmers comments we are quite obviously not welcome, then that's fine, we will go to other circuits.

Can see the complex becoming Corporate Days only. Which is a shame

Hoppy

In my 'politically correct' post I was not saying JP was absolutely right and that we should all suffer accordingly.

I was saying that what happened, due to the weather, was inevitable and that JP had no alternative. Bit of a **** up, but **** happens.

But if you accept that, then we must accept the personal grief and JP must also accept the commercial consequencies and refund those concerned. End of story. Case closed; let's move on.

We have all got to accept that in commercial or personal life, things don't always go to plan. Complain to your MP (and see how far that gets you). "I have a noisey car and I don't give a toss about anyone else." That's a real vote winner.

Let's get real. I like Bedford and if I have to refit the standard backbox then that's what I'll do.

Best,

Richard.

T5NYW

iTrader: (4)

Simon,
Hope you enjoyed the ride around in my STi7PPP'd sorry i had to take it easy being brand newish I think if you look at the John Felstead Full Bedford Video we(you or John B) came out in the begining of the lap, in front of the Noble and he overtakes us second corner from the end.

Tony

RB170

I was there Saturday as a passenger (I was the guy who asked why they closed some of the track if all the cars still running had passed the noise test)

I think that the way it was handled was very bad. The problem was caused by weather conditions, which we have no control over and Mr Palmer moving the goal posts, which we have no control over.

The first thing we heard was that young lady saying "The session has been stoppped because EVERY SINGLE CAR HERE IS TOO LOUD" eh?

Firstly not all the cars had run, secondly if every car was too loud why did only a handfull of cars get asked to go home?

For Mr Palmer to blame us for the problem is disgusting, he made the decision to change the noise limit, as has been said many times, everyone that turned up complied to and passed the original published noise levels so to then blame us is just wrong.

What Mr palmer needs to realise is that if the Scooby's have a problem at Bedford then the RS's and Evo's and Skylines will have a problem at Bedford and pretty soon Bedford will be limited to corporate days only and seeing as these types of event are on a downward trend pretty soon he's not going to have much business.

I think those that didn't get to run should get a full refund and those that did get to run should be offered a full days track use at half price seeing as they only had half a day anyway.

Diesel

Hoppy I agree with your logic, but you apply it dismissively and with the benefit of hindsight.

I'll bring my standard backbox too of there's a next time, but no one could have possibly anticipated that need.

**** happens, roll over?
D

Floyd

iTrader: (9)

I have 4 std BB's which I'll bring along to the next track day in exchange for drinks afterwards

F

PS I was going to say hi to you Diesel but you'd left before I had a chance

Diesel

Sorry Floyd it was cos I was stomping my feet and then sulking!

johnfelstead

yeh, and i spent all week practising my "Projecting" for nothing too.

DavidLewis

I know I'm no longer a scoob owner, nor a member of the SIDC, so I'd better put my flame suit on

I've had many, enjoyable trackdays with the SIDC, including 3 visits to Bedford. Bedford is ideal for a member to introduce themselves to trackdays, without the risk of (too much) damage if you get it wrong.
I myself had an incident that, should it have occured anywhere else, would have resulted in a write-off and possibly personal injury to me and my passenger. But instead we made good use of the large run off area and came to a stand-still without damage or injury.

To see that Mr Palmer would consider banning the SIDC is a real shame to the members that would benefit from future trackdays held at Bedford. I'm impressed that he (Mr Palmer) even has the time to investigate the complaint personally, probably to ensure this was no interfering kiljoy before have to disappoint a driver.
To then reply to the posts on this forum, I must take my hat off to him. Personally, I would have closed the doors, saying "If you dont like it, better go somewhere else" But no, he's tried to be resonable and yet people still remain abusive.

There was a time that the SIDC was welcomed and respected by all tracks it visited due to the organisation and conduct of it members. Will Bedford be the first and not the last track to ban SIDC attendance due to some of its new found arrogance of "they need us, we dont need them"

I do hope that the 'behind the scenes' negotiating between SIDC and JP are more friendly otherwise it will be SIDC's loss, not theirs.

I mean no offence to anybody and understand the amount of time individuals have put into their (wonderful) cars but the abusiveness and arogance of the few will spoil it for the many.

johnfelstead

David, i dont read anyone on here as being abusive or arogant.

The simple facts are, Mr Palmer changed the noise regulations on the day. This caused vehicles that passed his published noise tests, to be turned away, and he isnt accepting that this is the real issue.

Take the XTR2 for example, Jonathan posts that it isnt hard to meet his noise limits with this car with some ingenuity. What he doesnt seem to want to see, is that this car had met his noise limits so there was no need to make any changes whatsoever. The only reason that car was not allowed to run was because he chose to lower the limit on the day. That day cost Ian and craig a huge amount of money, they hired westfields own race driver to help them setup the car, they spent a lot of money having it setup at an F3 raceteam, they spent a lot of money getting down there and they are now going to be spending money this weekend to give the car the run it should have had last weekend. On top of that they spent the week working their asses off to get the car prepared in time. This was all ruined by the decision of Mr Palmer to change the rules, which he isnt able to do based on his terms and conditions published on his website.

Everyone accepts that you have to have noise limits, and if you dont meet these, you shouldnt be allowed to run on track. That isnt the contentious isssue here. The issue is that the noise limits were dropped, once we had paid and put all the effort into getting ourselves to bedford, and that limit was dropped without proper analysis of the impact of that decision.

I thought Beford was a great place to drive, but unless he states he will give everyone afected a refund, and also states he wont make such an off the cuff change again, i wont be spending my money there. You cant run a business like that, or rather you shouldnt if you want to have loyal and happy clients.

This has nothing to do with the event being an SIDC event, i drive on track with anyone and everyone as regards organisors, and i would say the same thing again if this happened at an RS owners club run event, easytrack or whoever.

Katana

I'm no lawyer, but doesn't changing the details at the very last minute constitute as fraud?

Redkop

Quote:

and also states he wont make such an off the cuff change again, i wont be spending my money there

Well I somehow don't think you will then John. My other half who has already pre-booked for a trackday there on 1 Feb rang Bedford and spoke direct to the guy who manages the noise levels. His concern being that his car would pass the the 87.5db limit but would definitely fail at the lower level. Therefore, were they able to give any guarantee that this farcical situation would not happen again, unfortunately they were unable to give any such assurance that it wouldn't!

Pavlo

I think JF has captured the key points on what happened at Bedford, no need to elaborate further.

Question is, how to manage it so it doesn't happen again, and the noise levels are such that (all) tracks can stay in business.

I would be seriously tempted to look at going to the continent for such things. For those down south, a trip to bedford is heavy on fuel, possibly includes a nights accomodation, and depending on the organisation running it, expensive to boot.

I wonder how much a track day organised on the continent would cost?

paul

EvilBevel

Paul, there are a few opportunities for that. Example would be Abbeville (not too far from Calais), or Zandvoort. I think Pete Croney has done or looked into both.

Another candidate could be Zolder, and IIRC, that would cost about 3.O00 UKP to hire with marshalls, first aid etc... (have to look this one up. Zolder is about 2 hours drive from Calais.
It does have an equally rigid sound check in place mind, and they even use transponders to pick out the cars that exceed the limit.
On the plus side it's a pretty safe, technical circuit, with max speeds of about 125 MPH on the straight.

If you are interested in exact prices, I could do some digging.

Francorchamps could be yet another candidate, they may welcome the money if the F1 thing falls through. May be a bit daunting for novices.

There's always a possibility to hook up with the local French or Dutch clubs as well BTW.

Still, the "track day" scene is way smaller than in the UK.

Agree BTW that JF has covered most things very eloquently

IanW

From what I understand the SIDC are speaking to Bedford with regards to refunds for those who were affected. Nobody has as far as I am aware been told that they will not be getting a refund either.

Ian

Nevetas

I don't think going round with your bat will help matters, thats a utterly stupid comment to make to Lisa.

Phil

This is the sort of thing that really gets my goat

the basebal bat comment is totally brainless

AND by someone who wasn't even effected

Retraction and apolagies please!!!!!!

Phil

DocJock

>>From what I understand the SIDC are speaking to Bedford with regards to refunds for those who were affected. Nobody has as far as I am aware been told that they will not be getting a refund either

When Mr Palmer made the unilateral decision to vary the terms/conditions of the event he should have offered refunds there and then.

I don't see why that is so difficult to grasp.

Richard Askew

Evilbevel - Theo, Hi mate, I think you have found some good tracks to explore within easy reach of Calais. These arent gona be ideal for those guys having to travel from northern parts of the UK, however a "long" weekend away would be an excellent way of improving the social scene as well as having some challenging circuits to learn.
Anyone got any details for european circuits (not the ring )??

Sorry to hear of the hassles at Bedford..saying no more as i dont know enough about what hapened..

DavidLewis

No apologies or retractions, Phil.

My bat comment was followed by a smiley and was in reference to this earlier comment from CraigH, also said in jest.

Chill out, mate.