EvilBevel

You mean people like John Felstead, Ian Hippy, Craig ?

Yup, real muppets them.

johnfelstead

Please explain that last comment Mark.

MarkO

Partly, yes. But mostly the idiots who aggressively rant and rave in an inappropriate public forum about stuff which should really be taken off-BBS altogether.

I've vaguely followed this whole episode, and it's very sad and depressing. From the point at which people started giving Lee/Lisa abuse about the Bedford day being cancelled, right through to the point where somebody made baseball bat-related threats to Lisa about the refund of some money, I've become more and more glad that I no longer own an Impreza and am not associated with this childish, aggressive, abusive and pathetic behaviour.

The Bedford day was an SIDC day. It should have been discussed on the SIDC BBS - period. Any problems people had regarding refunds/cancellations/noise regs should have been directed personally (but politely) to the SIDC track organisers, or directly to Palmersport. Unfortunately, a whole bunch of egos started egging each other on into how unfair it all was and how evil and nasty the SIDC (and Lee/Lisa) were to organise such an event.

If people had directed well-formulated and sensible complaints/questions to the right people in private (via email, etc) this wouldn't have happened the way it did. And that includes the jonfelsteads, craigs, et al - who should have known better than to get involved in a BBS flame-fest like this.

Frankly, there's a lot of people with massive egos who seem to think the world (and the SIDC and Jonathan Palmer) owe them everything. They don't - and frankly, it seems to me a sensible commercial decision to decide not to accept SIDC bookings (or Impreza bookings in general) in future.

You all made your own beds, now lie in them. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

johnfelstead

Mark, Jonathan Palmer posted on this BBS, we didnt go and drag him from his helicopter and force him to sit in front of a PC, he chose to post here.

If he had given an email address, or mailed me privately, i would have happily discussed this offline with him. He chose to use this BBS to post his factually incorect information and it is not in most peoples nature to accept that because he happened to be the person to say it.

What would you rather i do, sit back and let him talk complete bollox or question what he wrote?

MATTeL

MarkO - I didn't make a bed!

I didn't go to Bedford, complain or post on any of the threads until now.

I am only posting due to the fact that I have been banned from Bedford, the one track I was considering going round next year when I could afford it, what with it being the first time I would be on track.

I have been banned for being an owner of an Impreza, tell me how that is fair. In fact it isn't, not in the slightest I'm not even a member of the SIDC at the moment.

CraigH

Amazing how many people who weren't there and don't have a clue how the day was handled suddenly jump in

Seems a lot of you are missing the vital fact that the noise limit was changed and most of the cars that were sent home did indeed pass the published noise limit, just not the lower limit.

It's not a case of trying to cheat - if anything it's a case of being cheated.

JP moved the goalposts and got criticism for it - quite rightly so especially after his arrogant posts. If they still have a noise issue at 87.5db then they need to sort it out.

If they published on their site, "noise limit for the day will be 87.5db but we reserve the right to lower it at our discretion" it would be a start.

It IS JPs loss - we have a choice of many more, more cost effective days at Premium circuits. If Subarus are affected then most certainly similar cars will be - also Westfield, Caterham etc.

With an IT market that's dead on it's feet and many major suppliers not willing to go to the expense of Corporate Days such as this, I'm quite surprised.

Next time I'm on one of the Motorsport Sensation days I'll be more than happy to reiterate any of this to Mr Palmer.

MATTeL

CraigH - Just because I don't comment in the other threads doesn't mean I didn't read them.

I am well aware of the changes in noise levels and the fact that meant a load of people got sent home, including the guys that had spent a fortune getting a car and driver ready for testing. At the time, according to my memory of what I read, no refunds were being mentioned.

What I am saying in my previous post is that it seem wholey unfair and rather short-sighted to include a blanket ban on all Imprezas because the day seems to have caused trouble from the start (albeit due to rules changing).

It does also mean that the Beford Autodrome website needs changing:
"What car do I need to have?
Absolutely anything; we've had machinery ranging from a Smart to a McLaren F1. The most popular cars are probably trackday regulars like Imprezas, BMW M3s, Porsches, Caterhams and Elises - anything enthusiasts like to drive fast in fact.

MarkO

Erm, I suspect he felt the need to post here after the mass torrent of abuse on the board slagging his company, trackday and personal name.

I think he's a fool too for rising to the bate and posting here (he should have responded on the SIDC BBS too, if anywhere) but I suspect he just wanted to clarify his position after all of the abuse that's gone before.
But hang on - it's his company, and his track. Why should he email you privately to discuss a problem you have with him? Surely you should have contacted him directly and personally to air your grievances, rather than just mouthing off along with all the other people here? Frankly, whilst I wouldn't expect better from some of the people on here (the Aaron Birds of this world) I was surprised to see somebody of your position and reputation becoming embroiled in what has been reduced to a verbal slanging match.

Oh, and Mattel - you're right. It's unfair. So blame the idiots who caused it to happen the way it did (which is exactly my point). But you still have the option to do other track days, or to do non-SIDC days at Bedford. The people I feel sorry for are Phil, Pete C, Lisa, Lee and the other SIDC committee members who've had to suffer abuse and grief well beyond the call of duty over this issue totally unnecessarily.

I've no interest in arguing the toss for another 10 pages, so I'll leave it at that, but perhaps a few people can learn from this and maybe stop it from happening again in the future?

Neil Smalley

Personally, and IMHO I think it's sad it's come to this pretty much inevitable conclusion.

At the end of the day it's Bedford's perogative to do what they like and allow who they like on.

However this incident will have wider implications as it seems as though many other car clubs are reconsidering their options on the back of this.

I also think that those affected by the drops in noise limits on the day have a good case for suing Bedford for expenses incurred and not just a refund.

I don't think the orginal thread was muppeted too much, and everyone tried to put their point across in an appopriate manner(JP's F1 records and SIDC baiting excepted). As was mentioned

I hope this incident serves as a warning to other car clubs of what could happen and that they take the action they feel is most appropriate . Corporate days may be the bread and butter of Bedford but, reputations are hard to get and easy to lose and I would'nt be surprised if this had reprecussions in the corporate arena too. Maybe the story will even get published in 'Autosport' or some other car magazine

As stated, the SIDC has nothing to do with Scoobynet, so excluding the SIDC based on posts on here does seem a little odd.

In the end it's Mr Palmers decision and although I'll miss it as a venue(it was the one closest to me) there are others around the country that will benefit from the SIDC and other car clubs patronidge

EvilBevel

Mark, I'm amazed. Really am. You sometimes/most of the time come through as such an intelligent guy, and then this ???

No one even put the slightest blame on SIDC, Lee or Lisa. It would be totally undeserved, but it didn't happen. It is sad enough Lisa took it to heart, but if you care to read it all again ... it was a very very sad misunderstanding.

John, you are still a muppet but your contributions to that thread should earn you a statue, not a dig by people who don't bother to read.

And no, I wasn't there.

The posts of Mr. Palmer were put on this BBS, not the SIDC BBS. Therefor, people reacted. Shouting "this should not be discussed here" is totally irrelevant.

CraigH

MarkO


"and am not associated with this childish, aggressive, abusive and pathetic behaviour"

I suggest you read your post again.

I sent Mr Palmer a letter asking to explain the situation - have heard nothing.
He posts on here and we're supposed to accept everything he says? Why is that?

The fact is he skirted totally around some of the issues raised and has now "spat his dummy out"

I'm surprised someone as historically vocal as you seems to think we should keep quiet.

I disagree with some things that were posted, especially his career which had no relevance to anything and any implication that SIDC were at fault - I certainly made it quite clear on here and by personal mails to Pete and Lisa.

Mattel

Wasn't actually referring to you so chill

MATTeL

CraigH - I guess it was unfortunate post timing then.

Still I thought it was quite a chilled response.

MarkO

Well, perhaps you'd like to explain that to Lisa then, who was extremely upset by the comments. Whether they were directed at her or not, the implication was there. And it's not the first time people have behaved threateningly on this BBS.
Yes. They were. In response to several tens of pages of abuse about him and his company on this site.

Lee's other thread totally sums things up, and I couldn't agree more with him. The issue here wasn't the actual noise regs or problems on the day at all, but the torrent of abuse that's been aired publicly on this BBS in the run-up and aftermath of the day. If people had behaved like normal human beings and politely negotiated a settlement with the SIDC/Palmersport, I suspect rather than being banned from future events, the SIDC wouldn't have been tainted by SN and would be seen as a premiere future customer for Bedford.

carl

Hmm. The problem as I see it is this:
1) Bedford Autodrome impose an 87.5 dB(A) limit to comply with noise regulations, which they agree with Environmental Health and the local communities
2) Local weather conditions (wind) cause the noise to be heard in a local village
3) To alleviate this, JP reduces the limit to 85 dB(A).

Surely the possible effects of weather conditions should have been taken into account when the 87.5 db(A) limit was set in (1) above?

MarkO

BTW, can I just point out that since 4 of the 7 cars refused at Bedford were a Skyline, Peugeot, Mazda and Westfield, perhaps SIDC track days should be made Subaru-only in future. That way there'd be less chance of noise regs being such a problem.

igratton

I imagine the RS Owners club with have serious problems at their future event at Bedford. Most tuned cosworths are very very noisey and I think owners should test their cars before making the journey.

I think the Westfield owners club will suffer in the same way
Ian.

MarkO

I doubt either of those clubs will suffer similarly, as long as they don't unleash a public torrent of abuse if 2-3% of the cars get refused on the grounds of noise regs - regardless of how unfairly the rules are governed....

johnfelstead

Mark, have you actually taken the time to read what i wrote? I have questioned the technical nonsense Mr Palmer posted, nothing more.

I am sorry, but i am not the type of person to accept nonsense from anyone, if Mr Plamer had apologised for the problems on the day, taken an interest in his clients predicament, rather than saying he was too busy and his time is more important than ours, said he would refund everyone affected, said he would either change his terms and conditions or his noise regulations, there would not have been the reaction there was.

Has he damaged his reputation and that of Bedford Autodrome by his attitude here? I would say yes.

EvilBevel

Mark,

Funny, that's just what I tried to do in the next post when it became clear she took it very personally. And in case you doubt my reasons: it was clear she was very much upset, which I felt was very unfortunate, and at the same time, it was very clear people didn't mean it the way she read it. Don't get me wrong, it's awfull when people are upset like that, but if I dare say it, she MISREAD what was being said. Difficult to grasp ?

Mark, part of your online personae problem is you never know whether you are just taking the **** to further stir up some **** or whether you are being genuine. Did you realize that BTW ?

There was no abuse on that thread, just people who were a bit miffed. It probably would have been more "sensible" to shut up & get money back if you only look at the money side of it, however, I would bet my left nut that it wasn't about the money for most people, it was about the way it all happened.

Oh, and as an intelligent human being, you realize SIDC or Impreza drivers can't be banned. It would be against the LAW !

At the same time, thousands of non impreza drivers are reading this very thread, and will make their own mind up. If I were a shareholder of Bedford, I would personally **** mr. Palmer and teach him how to spell public relations & business practises. Gladly, I am not. I am however an Impreza driver and an active member of this BBS, and I feel very free to react to anything people post on here, ex F1 career or not. If out of line, I'm sure moderators will delete etc...

And I object to you, or Dave TS, or Deano trying to black flag the people who contributed more here on Imprezas than you ever did, combined.

Think about it FFS ...

Josh L

Zagangaphile,

Just a couple of points.

1. Who else is he going to take issue with? It was an SIDC day.
2. Unless you have evidence to back it up, I would have thought that suggesting they're only giving refunds because of the fuss was a very stupid thing to do.

IMO I thought the BA staff coped very well, under difficult circumstances, and in the face of some rather aggressive and less than polite individuals, and the marshalls were out there all day without a break.

Quite frankly, some of the posts in the original thread were at best speculative, and in some cases complete rubbish, and I'm afraid it's very naive of people to suggest that comments Scoobynet have nothing to do with the SIDC. A majority of members post here, not on the SIDC BBS.

There's no reason why those affected couldn't have expressed their concerns and then awaited the outcome. However, in true Scoobynet fashion, it just had to become a witch hunt.

As Bedford is close to me, I'm saddened by JP's decision. However, I'm not surprised.

Josh

MarkO

John:
Yes, I know. But why get involved at all? Why not sort it directly with him, or even on the SIDC BBS? Why get dragged into such a peurile argument in the first place?Of course. But no more than it'd already been damaged by the previous threads with abuse and slatings.
Bevel:
Of course. But I think you can probably tell if you put your mind to it whether I'm just stirring here, or being genuinely irritated by the attitude of most on this BBS.Anyone and anything can be banned. It's a private circuit, and Palmersport undoubtedly reserve the right to refuse entry to anyone on any grounds (check the smallprint of the contract) - albeit with a full refund. If they don't specify such a clause, they're very foolish indeed.Yeah, whatever. I've contributed plenty enough to the Impreza community in the last 6-7 years, thanks - but I wasn't aware it was a competition.

Or are you saying that anyone who's done more than me or deano to 'help' the Impreza community immediately is above reproach? If that's the case, then all the people who slagged Lee, Lisa, Phil and Pete C when the original Bedford cancellation thread was posted have got a seriously large amount of apologising to do. [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]

igratton

Josh,

I'd like to think my comments in the original thread we reasonable and at most showing I was upset that after hours and hours of hard work unable to reap the fruits of our efforts.

I am a reasonable person and only post information when I see fit (nearly five years on scoobynet and only 1000 posts). I hope I have not mis-represented my well-balanced usual self.

Ian.

EvilBevel

It's not a competition Mark... just doing a post count in Drivetrain would do it.

You seem to have read a lot of negative replies... I didn't. Perception ? Unless you also counted my replies as "negative" of course.

OK, that's a cheap shot... hmmm... yes I remember your pages/website etc, you were here way before me, same for Deano etc. I remember your pic with the red nose etc...

However: I still maintain you are shooting at the wrong target.

And may I also suggest reading up on European law: no company has any rights whatsoever on refusing customers based on their skin, sexual preferences, or the car they drive in.

And if needed, I will gladly put that to a test and book the next trackday at Bedford. Stickered up black Impreza with the "Wide-O" name in the rear windows. Will be *very* interesting.

Needless to say I will conform to the 87 dB(A) noise test.

Josh L

Hippy,

You are a reasonable guy, for a hippy , but even as one of those who suffered, you'd have to admit that some of the comments on the original thread were OTT.

If there's a problem, then people have a right to voice their complaints. However, the original thread went way beyond that IMHO.

I think I'll call it a day now, as I've a feeling this thread's going to go the same way as the original.

Josh

igratton

Cheers for that Josh,

I kinda feel the same way - I've voiced my views. I'll stay quiet now because I don't feel I can add anything else that is useful to the debate. I don't want to offend or make personal judgements of people I do not personally know - and I wont.

Ian
(Ex Hippy - currently wearing a grade 2 'designer' short hairstyle)

johnfelstead

the one thing i was doing, was pointing out the utter nonsense he chose to post. Unfortunately, not everyone can understand the implications of the changes he made, or the fact that he was stating as fact that with ingenuity you can make a XTR2 run within his noise limits.

He simply wouldnt accept that the car was already within his noise limits and the problems on the day were his making. He publically blamed people for ruining other peoples days, when they were not to blaim. To me that is morally wrong.

I am in the sometimes pain in the **** (for me) position of being able to see rubish, for what it is. I could probably make more friends by being mr nice guy and going along with what would make life easy. I just cant do that because i have some pretty strong principles, i will shout the emporer has no clothes before most people, because i was taught to be honest and question dubious things when i see them.

This BBS is full of the history of people who tell people what they want to hear, whilst lying through there teeth. Unfortunately, i would rather tell the truth and say things as i see and understand them, rather than go along with what could be the easy option.

If that makes me look a **** at times, so be it, but you wont find me conning people, people know where they stand with me. I could not sit back and listen to someone spout rubish. Mr Palmer chose to post information in a public forum so it is only right to put that under some scrutiny in the same public forum.

Markus

Hmm, I see JP has not posted again, pity, as I would quite like an answer from him about who the ban actually applies to.

Anyway, what has happened has happened, SIDC is no longer welcome at bedford, which is a great shame. However, I'm sure imprezas could return to BA at another type of trackday, maybe even the Feb Redline day, not sure though.

As has been said, BA has (had?) a good reputation, I personally feel that, regardless of what has happened, who was right, who was wrong, that good reputation has been tarnished, very publically, and well, I think that might hurt BA quite a bit. This is prob a very naïve thing to say, especially coming from me, but it's what I see.

Hope I've not offended anyone, was not the intention. I'm a nice guy (if a bit dim at times )

EvilBevel

Mark, I'll skip the little digs, but

It surely looked that way - no matter what cap you think I should wear (and remember, I saw that pic )

I'll shut up now, dinner & all that, still, I think that - although they don't need me to "defend" them - some people including you - are being very dismissive/harsh towards JF/CH etc.

I'll get my coat now, check my eyes etc... but I don't have to consult a lawyer You OTOH seem to underestimate Europe

MarkO

Check my original post. I never mentioned either of those names at all - somebody else did.
My 'beef' isn't with jf, craig, etc. I have no problem with them at all. My problem is with the other 99% of muppets who caused this problem in the first place.
I'm sure if such power existed for private clubs then the all-male golf clubs would have felt the brunt of it by now - but they haven't, and still exist quite happily.

Whatever. It's irrelevant anyway, since:

• JP has not mentioned banning Imprezas, just the SIDC and
• The ban won't have any effect anyway, since the SIDC won't be organising any more track days in future, so won't be able to be banned.

Oh, and I'd like to have my dinner too, but I'm stuck at work for another 3 hours.

mutant_matt

Work being a location and not an occupation in your case Mark

Matt