ScoobyJawa

John, I wholeheartedly agree with this and is what I have been saying for a long time. Other manufacturers have moved the game on but Subaru have stayed still. Sure the build quality is better, but the car is heavier, with the same engine as the old UK spec. Ford, Renault, Honda etc are all now biting at its heals and are much cheaper. Subaru need to address the balance and put a gap between the Impreza and the hot hatches as was once there before.
The WRX, as you say, should be more like 250/260 bhp - with PPP to 280ish bhp. The STi should be around (in UK spec) 290/300 bhp and a PPP to 330ish, while at the same time keeping the current pricing structure as much as possible.

Just my 2p

scoobynutta555

Babber

Thats why i sold my typeR, just didnt like the power splits. I nearly crashed it the first day i had it, a wet roundabout, was totally different to my old my93 wrx. I suppose if i put the effort into it and learnt how to drive it properly/track it, id learn to live with it, but for most of my use (motorways commuting etc) I decidied it wasnt the car for me after all. Lovely car to have, id have another but not as an everyday car. Think the car i have now is a better compromise.

MATTeL

I certainly don't think the STi7 was a mistake, in fact the complete opposite.

The STi7 might have shown Subaru waking up to the competition that was gaining on them.

John - Comparing anything to a Type RA is a bit unfair!

Deep Singh

Iain Young,what you've just said proves my point ie 'its so much better than my MY00 UK'.Its meant to be better than the STi5/6/p1!!Of course its better than a MYOO UK,aswell as an extra 40 BHP its got completely different suspension.This is how I think Subaru have got away with it,alot of STi7 UK owners seem to be prior prebugeye UK turbo owners who rightly feel they have stepped up in terms of performance and handling.But its previous Sti3-6 owners who can compare what its like and imho Subaru have not really done the biz.Its a shame because I love Scoobs,always have and even when I change will always hold them dear to my heart.

carlos_hiraoka

Road wise, the STi 7 was a definte improvement over the previous STi's, but rallywise / trackwise ????? ..... STi 8 has seen the most dramatic change. STi 7 could still share the same turbo's with STi's 3-6. Now the STi 8 has the new 4-2-2 header and a twin scroll turbo, which is said to give it a much better powerband, and more low end torque. Well see how it performs against the natural competition.
I really hope that the STi 8 will be the one to finally make Subaru win the N4 class, as clearly the STi ver 7 spec C hasn't been upto the job. Like I said before the "older" STi's have been on the same pace of the grp. N STi 7.

this is taken from http://www.worldrallynews.info :

Subaru launches counter-attack
April 12, 2002
Prodrive has unveiled the car that could bring the Production Car World Championship to life, an Impreza that it believes is capable of ending Mitsubishi supremacy.

Mitsubishi drivers have won the Group N production world title every year since 1994 with successive versions of the Lancer. In theory, the four-wheel-drive, turbocharged Impreza ought to be at least as quick, but its successes have been sporadic. Freer regulations and a stronger gearbox have given Prodrive the leeway to build a faster, stronger Impreza that mirrors the World Rally Car in certain respects and Japan's Toshihiro Arai will try the latest four-door machine for the first time on the Cyprus Rally.



The new car has a wider track front and rear, a five-speed, non-synchromesh gearbox "based on the WRC design" and a wider power band thanks to a variable induction tract and two-stage anti-lag system. Power output is claimed to be 272 bhp.

"Improvements in the original road car have allowed us to greatly improve the performance of the new shape four-door Impreza," motorsport sales director Richard Taylor said. "The Impreza will show its potential in the 2002 World Rally Championship Production Cup and prove that it is now the best Group N car you can buy."

johnfelstead

jeez, selective reading or what.

Just to refresh. "I like the STi7, but it feels slow to me compared to the STi5 RA i drive. I really need a go in an STi7 type RA spec C to do a fair comparison though."

That means..

I like the STi7
It is slower than my RA
I would like to try a like for like comparison of mine and the RA version of an STi7 so i can feel the diferences more fairly, as i only have my STi to fall back on as a comparison.

And yes, my sport was faster, but only in the twisties

carlos_hiraoka

John, don't you agree that new not always means better ????? ..... best example is the EVO grp. N rally cars, this years world rally champion won in a EVO 6, which proved to be a better rally car, especially on gravel rallies than the EVO 7. But as an everyday car the EVO 7 is way ahead of the EVO 6.

Like I said, it might not be "Subaru's big mistake" but definetly it is just the first evolution of the new age chassis, which still has a lot to evolve, sure the STi 8 sounds lovely, elect. centre diff + abs + automatic regulation of centre diff + more low end torque + twin scroll turbo + solid drop links + etc.

Andrewza

DS, have you considered that not everyone wants to buy an import? I mean that is the only way to have any other STi isn't it? So you're comparing JDM STi's (pre 7) to STi7 TypeUK? Maybe you have a JDM STi7, I don't know. However as numerous people have said the STi7 is a success simply because it sold when compared to cars like the P1.

I for one am happy with my STi7 (it has had it's niggles, thankfully now fixed) and like many other it seems find it a much better car in every way than the MY00 Turbo I had before. I had the choice at the time of start mod'ing my MY00 or trade in the STi7 and I don't regret my decision at all, the two major dislikes I had with the bugeye, being the lights and spoiler, are corrected on the STi7 (Prodrive version).

I do agree there are some flat spots as everyone knows and am impatiently awaiting my PPP, which is really how the car should have come in the first place.

Just noticed you mentioned the rear rattle, I did post in the thread about that, that mine is pretty much fixed, a replacement strut sent to my dealer from SUK.

[Edited by Andrewza - 12/12/2002 8:47:42 PM]

carlos_hiraoka

Here is a small list of some "changes" introduced in the STi ver 8 to make it better :

- Revised suspension mount points
- new stabilizer bars with beefier rear links
- the new optional DCCDs center differential system (Drivers Control Center Diff). It's an all-new unit that increases the range of torque distribution front to rear, and now has an automatic mode that adjusts the distribution depending on the situation. It still retains the manual adjustment modes.
- new ABS now works with the ACCD system
- complete rework of the intake, turbo and exhaust system had occurred, creating power way down low - it's making roughly 230ft/lb's of torque at 2400rpm - and continues on to a back-slapping midrange that holds on till about 6500rpm, then eases into it's redline at 7500rpm. Max torque? 286ft/lbs!! Yet still they claim it still only makes 276hp despite the fact that torque has increased dramatically throughout the entire rev-range.
- the extractors (4-2-2 design) and exhaust system work in conjunction with a new-to-Subaru Twin Scroll turbo unit. Feeding into a revised exhaust system, it puts past Subaru turbo systems to shame.

(taken from www.apexjapan.com)

ARRON BIRD

Carlos thats ok if you want an import.
The UK car will be pretty much the same as the current STI7 Type UK.
John I reckon my car that has just **** itself with the PPP would be quicker to say 130mph (no faster cos thats when the engines let go) than your RA.
More torque in the STI7 engine. Only my gut feeling and I`m sure you will disagree
PS my Astra 1.6SXI would whip you too.

scoobycar60

Moving from an old Sti2, modded to destruction

When I got a MY01 UK WRX (no ppp) It felt very slow at first however the actual differance on the road was very small, the handling was very predictable and safe and the car now felt very solid.

I decided I wanted the STI7 UK Prodrive style, loved the looks and it seemed to offer the best of all worlds, power, brakes, close ratio box, LSD styling etc .I was very pleased with it in general and got used to using the box to avoid the low rpm bog down also learned to ignore the slippers tugging the wheel on badly surfaced and cambered roads(feels worse at first than it is).

Mad as I am, without any test drive or real information I decided I would go for the PPP, not expecting much other than a slightly better pick up from low revs. Well what a revelation, the rolling road may not indicate a huge boost in power or torque maxs, but the delivery is so much better. I am now really happy with the car and feal the PPP makes the car and is worth every penny.

I have finally killed that niggle in the back of my mind that I should have gone for the Evo7.

Well done Prodrive and Subaru! whatever some say I think this car with the PPP is now a really great bit of kit.

Phil Harrison

Let's remember that the Bugeye WRX was designed to appeal to a slightly different market than the classic. Subaru wanted to widen the appeal by making it smoother and 'more sophisticated' to appeal to a wider audience. Hence things in the WRX like improved turn in and more linear power delivery. It didn't appeal: virtually no-one liked the looks, and many 'classic owners were alienated by the lack of adrenaline/grin-factor. It failed to capture new market, and people like me were waiting for the re-skin which we reckoned was inevitable - how right we were. Hence, by definition, it was a big mistake. So far Deep is right.

IMHO the STi7 and UK were out of the same design philosophy as WRX. STiUK did sell, and the comparison which says that it's a family-friendlier alternative to EVO VII is spot on. It's what I think it was designed to be. Remember always, that it had to be fettled(as did WRX) to meet European emission standards (unlike P1) and is first of a breed all of which will have to do that. Hence the well-known power delivery shortcomings, masked to an extent by the 6-speed box. And the 'kick in the back' was restored - problem is, not 'till 4000 revs!! And now we can - within reason - all get a Euro-compliant dealer-supported and warranted car of STi performance pedigree. So, while there is some 'guilt by association' in the bugeye design (and the suspension rattle is unforgiveable - mine is coming back AGAIN [img]images/smilies/mad.gif[/img]) I would say that far from being a mistake, it is actually the only saving grace within a far broader philosophical mistake by Subaru. And some features - like the active diffs (when you get used to them) - are positive improvements.

Put on PPP (Aftermarket fit - has to be AIUI, to meet emission regs again) and you have a car marginally better than a P1 (though not half as handsome!) for, let me remind you, a couple of grand less all-in. And it may well be that some of the '03/STi8 goodies we're not getting are emission-reg related??? (and FAIK PPP may still have to be an aftermarket kit even if done at delivery mileage)

So, Deep, I disagree that it's their worst mistake: and if they were to be able to improve the design to give STiUK/PPP performance 'out of the box', then I'd say it had been the forerunner of a considerable triumph. Only to the extent that a P1 remains more desirable than an unmodded STiUK would I regard it as a 'mistake.

FWIW - Phew

Phil
edit: substitute "fettled" for *******ised (auto-edited by SN!)

[Edited by Phil Harrison - 12/12/2002 11:11:13 PM]

johnfelstead

there are no active diffs on the STi7 Phil. Apart from that, good conclusion.

Paul_M

Think he means the suretracs? Which are of course not active but do behave differently to the classic's plated diffs.

Sideways

John, the active diffs Phill is talking about are the RA ones, and should your earlier post have read ........

I like the STi 7
In my opinion the STi 5 RA is faster ?

Just asking as Phill drove one the other day and reckons its not as quick as my STi 7

Jas

Phil Harrison

Thanks, Paul - spot on! I had (mistakenly) thought Suretracs were active. Ta!

Phil

Arron

I own an sti 7 Prodrive car which I took with some friends to Santa Pod earlier this year, my friends were in mildly modded STI 1 and 2's both with full de-cats - induction kits - bleed valves and so on,these cars are both hovering around the 300 bhp and 280 torque mark so my almost std STI 7 with K&N element filter and Prodrive back box and 250 kilos more weight, was on to a no win task I was sure.

NOT TO BE.
I actually beat them both, allbeit by the smallest of margins.
I know it was in a straight line and it comes down to the driver but I can say we were all going for top honours.( so new versus old nothing in it )
( we all got some respectable times )

As for every day use day in day out I can't compare to other STI'S as I have not owned any but can compare it to my old modded uk 98 which was a good car but my STI if compared is a great car.When I bought the car and had my first 1k service I started to use the power and it did'nt perform as I expected it to although saying that I have over 10k miles now and the car is a totally different beast.

The car almost definately needs to be addressed below 4000rpm which the PPP and other after market goodies do but as someone earlier in the post said once you are use to it you learn to drive within the powerbands and this can great fun.

The overall ability and partential of the STI 7 IMHO is better than the classic version ( this is only my thoughts )once you are use to that void below 4000.

To answer your question Deep:- No I don't think IM have made a mistake with this car.

But I would say that as I own one.

Arron.








[Edited by Arron - 12/13/2002 9:37:41 AM]

[Edited by Arron - 12/13/2002 9:41:02 AM]

Jza

Oh god here we go again.....

The vultures are now out to slag a perfectly good (albeit soon to be replaced) car just as they did when the bugeye first appeared.

IMHO the new generation cars are better made, safer, handle better and still go like stink (even if not as quickly as before). You really can't please some people

They certainly weren't a mistake... and theres lots of owners like me who love them to death...

Jza

Skippyscoob

I'm not a great one for knowing the technicalities. What I do know is that I think my STi Prodrive is a fantastic car and anyone that disagrees can shove it up their voluminous a**e.

Arron

Too true JZA,
IMHO the new generation cars are better made, safer, handle better and still go like stink (even if not as quickly as before). You really can't please some people

I think a point to point tussle with a Bugeye and Classic car would be closer than a lot of people think.

THE OUTCOME MAY SHOCK YOU. ( I know where my bet would be ).

I had a classic modded uk98 and a neibour has a modded ppp uk300, although my uk car felt quicker it actually was'nt there was bugger all in it until it came to the handling and the uk300 was gone.

Arron.

Sideways

LMAO at Skippyscoob you tell em mate.
But as John Felstead said " Nothings better in the whole wide world than his RA " ( except for the whole wide world bit oh and the nothing )
Well actually I made it up but thats the impression I get sometimes on reading his posts.

Jas

johnfelstead

If thats how you read my posts, then you are a muppet. My RA is a fantastic car, but so are many others i have the priveledge to drive. Just a few days ago i did a pretty comprehensive writeup on here on how an XTR2 westie feels and compares to a tin top and a normal westfield.

I happen to write a lot about what my RA can do, because i actually go and use it to it's potential. I am probably more active in exploiting these cars than anyone else on this board and so you are bound to see me talking about how fabulous it is more than most. It is better at the things i do, that a normal scoob. I am not blinkered enough to think it is the best car in the world though.

What's your problem sideways?

I will be having a go in a Spec C RA in January all being well, i'll give a proper acount of it then.

I did try and get a test sesion setup at the nurburgring, to give an STi Type UK and PPP version a comparison run, but didnt manage to arrange that. I will try again in spring.

Sideways

I haven't got a problem John

DrEvil

this is a bit like the debate that old (read nearly dead) people have about paper based offices and paperless offices (computers).. The old (version) was better blah blah.. don't like change [blah]..

Seriously though, I drove Rum's PPP'd STi 7 - and although it doesn't feel quite as quick straight line as my P1 was (although I think this is more down to the increased noise deadening + smoother ride), the handling is leaps n bounds ahead of the P1, much faster through the twisties.

IMHO, a much better car, and I'd buy one if I had the money right now.

Rgds, Alex

babber

John,

I think the problem here [flame suit on] is that because you do write a lot about your RA, and you are a moderator the majority of people think that your a god!! Please don't take this the wrong way. You only have to look at a few of your posts to see that a hell of lot of people do look at you as the autherity as far as Scoobies are concerned. I understand that your not trying to promote this personnally, but it is happening.

Oh and I'll tell you something that you said that pissed me right off. Remember that RB5 that was for sale and you looked at?? You gave that car a hell of a slating and to be honest, it wasn't called for. I had a good look around that car, when my mate bought the guys UK300 and I think that you were a little unfair. Enuff said ?

[flame suit off]

Cheers Phill C

PS I hope this doesn't offend you or anyone else. I just had a be honest moment!!

Sideways

Yes John I agree with Phill (for a change).
Nothing personal

Jas

johnfelstead

i get what you are saying babber, and if that is the perception and that pisses some people off, then that is very unfortunate.

Being a moderator on here doesnt mean you know anything, it just means you are prepared to put in a bit of time to try and keep the place running.

I dont want to go into the car sale episode, because that is old news and i think a few people learned from that, including myself. Half of the problem with that was people only selectively read what is written at times, and before you know it, it gets very contentious, when your trying to get accross a simple principle. Some of it was down to me being seriously pissed off by the way that week went.

I do have the means to go and do more than most with my cars, and by that i dont mean just financial (i am just a normal working bloke, not loaded unfortunately), i mean i have a lot of knowledge in motorsport and trackdriving, so it's easy for me compared to most to go out and really find what these cars are capable of. I do cover a lot of miles too, i bought my RA in June, so far i have done 17K miles, including 3 ring trips, so i quickly get to the bottom of what the real issues with these cars are. I hope my writing about that doesnt come accross as me being full of myself, because thats very much not what i am like, i am just very enthusiastic about the things i am lucky enough to do.

johnfelstead

P.S Are you two *very close* being from the same location.

EvilBevel

Is it bash JF week already ?

Perception is a funny thing. Personally I expected JF to become bored with the Impreza very soon, given the BHP/ton the Westfield had, and I expected him to go on (and on, and on ) about how slow/boring the RA would be. Clearly not the case.

Personally I enjoy the reviews/comparisons very much.

babber

John,

I'm glad you didn't take my comments the wrong way.

Jason and me went to school together and have been good friends for twenty odd years. (lol no we aren't shirt lifters)

I would love to see you and Jason have a little go at each other around a track. I have offered my RB5 WR for the challenge, but it will have to be a long track with plenty of long striaghts Arron should bring his STi7 along He'll show you some serious sideways action

So are you up for the challenge ?

Cheers Phill C