I just gotta say this........Exploding some myths cos its time.......thoughts?
18 December 2002, 01:32 PM
#31
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Thanks for the input RICH and JZA
I don't think that I have a "couldn't care less" attitude regarding my car. I do care, but like a parent with a child, I choose the levels of risk i expose it to and decide what is dangerous and what is not. To be called an Idiot because i think that some people go over the top is truely wierd.
IMHO FMIC's, Larger Turbo's, Injectors etc are where the expertise, knowledge,remaps and the like are required.
I've even seen threads about remapping because of a backbox only mod. C'mon!! tell me that's the sort of thing 90% of this bbs needs telling, when it has got to be absolute rubbish.
Mikey
I don't think that I have a "couldn't care less" attitude regarding my car. I do care, but like a parent with a child, I choose the levels of risk i expose it to and decide what is dangerous and what is not. To be called an Idiot because i think that some people go over the top is truely wierd.
IMHO FMIC's, Larger Turbo's, Injectors etc are where the expertise, knowledge,remaps and the like are required.
I've even seen threads about remapping because of a backbox only mod. C'mon!! tell me that's the sort of thing 90% of this bbs needs telling, when it has got to be absolute rubbish.
Mikey
18 December 2002, 01:34 PM
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true a little information can b a dangerous thing which in this context i suppose means people can get paranoid 
But i 4 1 prefer 2 get the full picture, even if it does goes right over my head
& base my decision on that even if it turns out 2b the rong un 
Dont c the need 4 getting wound up about it from either camp it's like that that's just the way it is whether chance dictates u car will go pop with a ITG filter on or whether u can knock out a shed load of boost without caring & drive happy as Larry 
Each 2 their own but i 4 one enjoy all the info even if it scares me , even with my mild baby it's this that gives that extra psi of adrenaline wondering if yer guna go up in smoke, hmm maybe not then but the scooby is fun with or without BS or otherwise
Si
PS am i talkin bollox yet n all?
But i 4 1 prefer 2 get the full picture, even if it does goes right over my head & base my decision on that even if it turns out 2b the rong un Dont c the need 4 getting wound up about it from either camp it's like that that's just the way it is whether chance dictates u car will go pop with a ITG filter on or whether u can knock out a shed load of boost without caring & drive happy as Larry Each 2 their own but i 4 one enjoy all the info even if it scares me , even with my mild baby it's this that gives that extra psi of adrenaline wondering if yer guna go up in smoke, hmm maybe not then but the scooby is fun with or without BS or otherwise Si
PS am i talkin bollox yet n all?
18 December 2002, 01:37 PM
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I can see what Mike is trying to get at but I think he's taking to litteral a view. John is right, if you tune blindly and don't care then your probably are an idiot!
But there are limits. There are limits to what people will spend and what people are willing to do. I run a tek 2.5 with a full scoobysport exhaust an STI 5 intercooler and a dawes set at 1.25 bar. Now, in this sub-zero temperature she has been getting to 1.3 in 5th and sometimes near it in 4th....but I'm not too worried. Similarly John has advised me countless times to get a knocklink and I agree 100% with him that its a sensible option but it is quite expensive IMO - I feel on its current settings and with my driving I should be ok without it. Recently my car was at a well known garage and the owner asked my spec and what boost I was running - I told him and he said....'pah...John's being overly cautious turn that bad boy (dawes) up a little'. In my opinion John is being overly cautious for a reason and the fact that he has a UK with 300bhp at the wheels on standard internals that hasn't blown up only proves he knows what he's doing. I've picked and choosed a little at Johns advice (at my own risk) but i've always tried to offset it with other things. My boost is hitting 1.3 bar but it IS winter and I DO have a slightly more efficient intercooler than standard. This and the fact I seldom use boost for sustained periods mean it should be safe. When I do 'make progress' I usually slow right down every 3-4 minutes to let the brakes and turbo cool - thats how I offset the slight extra boost.
The other key component is that I am a very sensitive to every sound and feeling from the car. If I push it and I feel its not happy I back off. Since switching to SUL it seems to be very rough off-boost but fine on boost - it's almost like it misses a beat. I often wonder how many people wouldn't have even felt this difference its that slight - this is still under investigation. I've always got my ears pricked for det and generally try to take as good care of the car as possible allowing warming up cooling down, etc.
John in my opinion is a very safe tuner. I sense that he couldn't handle the thought of posts like, 'John banks teked my car and it just let go
' and 'I hate JB' For that reason he quite sensibly leaves good margines for error and abuse/neglect from his client. BUT, don't forget by the very nature of the business of tuning you are eating into the manufacturers margins. For this reason you need to use good fuel, oil, let her warm up cool down, kiss her before you go to bed at night, etc However, to say that John is being a total nanny is just plain wrong! John is the one with the knowledge, he's the one that has sat with the laptop firing around fife in loads of different cars with different turbos, zorsts, filters, intercooler, whatjamacallits, etc.....if he says you shouldn't/should do something.........well, that's good enough for me
I think the way to look at tunning is you have to assess the way you use the car, what you're doing to it, what adivce your being given, how you 'feel' the car is responding and set things up accordingly. Blind faith that'll be alright will lead to big bills.
But there are limits. There are limits to what people will spend and what people are willing to do. I run a tek 2.5 with a full scoobysport exhaust an STI 5 intercooler and a dawes set at 1.25 bar. Now, in this sub-zero temperature she has been getting to 1.3 in 5th and sometimes near it in 4th....but I'm not too worried. Similarly John has advised me countless times to get a knocklink and I agree 100% with him that its a sensible option but it is quite expensive IMO - I feel on its current settings and with my driving I should be ok without it. Recently my car was at a well known garage and the owner asked my spec and what boost I was running - I told him and he said....'pah...John's being overly cautious turn that bad boy (dawes) up a little'. In my opinion John is being overly cautious for a reason and the fact that he has a UK with 300bhp at the wheels on standard internals that hasn't blown up only proves he knows what he's doing. I've picked and choosed a little at Johns advice (at my own risk) but i've always tried to offset it with other things. My boost is hitting 1.3 bar but it IS winter and I DO have a slightly more efficient intercooler than standard. This and the fact I seldom use boost for sustained periods mean it should be safe. When I do 'make progress' I usually slow right down every 3-4 minutes to let the brakes and turbo cool - thats how I offset the slight extra boost.
The other key component is that I am a very sensitive to every sound and feeling from the car. If I push it and I feel its not happy I back off. Since switching to SUL it seems to be very rough off-boost but fine on boost - it's almost like it misses a beat. I often wonder how many people wouldn't have even felt this difference its that slight - this is still under investigation. I've always got my ears pricked for det and generally try to take as good care of the car as possible allowing warming up cooling down, etc.
John in my opinion is a very safe tuner. I sense that he couldn't handle the thought of posts like, 'John banks teked my car and it just let go
' and 'I hate JB' For that reason he quite sensibly leaves good margines for error and abuse/neglect from his client. BUT, don't forget by the very nature of the business of tuning you are eating into the manufacturers margins. For this reason you need to use good fuel, oil, let her warm up cool down, kiss her before you go to bed at night, etc However, to say that John is being a total nanny is just plain wrong! John is the one with the knowledge, he's the one that has sat with the laptop firing around fife in loads of different cars with different turbos, zorsts, filters, intercooler, whatjamacallits, etc.....if he says you shouldn't/should do something.........well, that's good enough for me I think the way to look at tunning is you have to assess the way you use the car, what you're doing to it, what adivce your being given, how you 'feel' the car is responding and set things up accordingly. Blind faith that'll be alright will lead to big bills.
18 December 2002, 01:37 PM
#34
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my car is a my00,straight through exhaust,boost gauge lambda and knocklink and with a my00 or my99 ecu,everything was as it should be both on road and track.
fitted a dawes,one turn from fuel cut,no change to fuelling and measured intake temps,went to track,intake temp went high knocklink lit up and had to knock about 1.5psi more off to keep them happy.
fair enough,track is far harder on cars but without monitors I would have never known and just continued using the dawes at the higher than safe level.
one of the first things I did was fit the knocklink and lambda.my OWN feeling is that if the MAF fails you might be lucky and get a poor running car that gets repaired before any real damage is done,or the MAF could fail slowly,leaning the car out,probably making performance better until it melts a piston.
at the end of the day though it's up to each person.I would rather at least be able to say I tried.
fitted a dawes,one turn from fuel cut,no change to fuelling and measured intake temps,went to track,intake temp went high knocklink lit up and had to knock about 1.5psi more off to keep them happy.
fair enough,track is far harder on cars but without monitors I would have never known and just continued using the dawes at the higher than safe level.
one of the first things I did was fit the knocklink and lambda.my OWN feeling is that if the MAF fails you might be lucky and get a poor running car that gets repaired before any real damage is done,or the MAF could fail slowly,leaning the car out,probably making performance better until it melts a piston.
at the end of the day though it's up to each person.I would rather at least be able to say I tried.
18 December 2002, 01:41 PM
#35
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I'm off to remove me Dawes now or will that mean my ECU will bugger something up and everything will grind to a loud halt. Will i need to get it re mapped, what about the time honoured reset of the ECU, Jesus i drove to work this morning, it was frosty and well, i should basically have taken the bus, the engine must have been RIGHT on the edge of the "threshold" because i'm decatted, with a dawes, boosting at 14psi (Way lower than most) and i dont have a knock link or sopme sort of AFR.
It's even worse in the summer, APPARENTLY
OK, like RICH has said, two sides to the coin, If i caused you offence John B, i apologise. Also let it be known that I am NOT saying that the stuff John goes on about is rubbish.
Mikey
Just 'cos it's different, don't mean it's wrong
It's even worse in the summer, APPARENTLY
OK, like RICH has said, two sides to the coin, If i caused you offence John B, i apologise. Also let it be known that I am NOT saying that the stuff John goes on about is rubbish.
Mikey
Just 'cos it's different, don't mean it's wrong
18 December 2002, 01:46 PM
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Merc, the minimum advance for best torque on the vast majority of turbocharged engines is right next to where it dets (this is influenced by CR, boost, charge temp, exhaust back pressure, octane, engine configuration, spark plugs, AFR etc). It is well accepted by OEMs in their tuning and in aftermarket tuning that you aim to tune to this point... CONSIDERING YOUR SAFETY MARGINS. Most of the MY00 and before Subarus in standard form run with some occasional negative knock correction - in other words the ECU has found what it thinks is the det point. The MY01 and later ECUs, and recent Bosch ECUs also run actively on the knock sensor, and dynamically attempt to always run the ignition timing for best torque.
I would rather find the det threshold in controlled, monitored conditions, and then pull back a safety margin across the whole range than leave it somewhere floating about. Otherwise you might find that you are 5 degrees from MBT in one area of the map and could go 3 or more degrees over at another point when the car gets heatsoaked in different conditions to those you mapped it in. In the same vein, I have had to actually drive a few cars myself so that I know they have been pushed harder than their driver would so that they do not det (others scare me ****less and heatsoak it without any help).
There are many factors that influence how close you tune to the knock threshold. Most of the cars I map conservatively and they go away with less or no knock correction (particularly imports mapped for 100-102 RON). Thermal management also plays a big part - if you have an inadequate turbo and intercooler for the power you are trying to produce, the heatsoak and a moving knock threshold are far more of a problem. In this case you are more cautious. Same with mapping for track use.
The thought I object to is someone giving advise to others that they should tune with blissful ignorance.
What they do on their own car is up to them, but just because theirs hasn't blown up doesn't mean that others won't doing the same.
This also is not about amateur vs professional tuning. I probably lose many customers because I tell them what they can do to their cars cheaply without spending anything in my direction.
Maybe scaremongery threads that I chunter out irritate people, but the "how much boost can I run" threads irritate me - it is far too simplistic to be safe. People think they can just crank the boost up with abandon. The number of engine failure threads posted on here and the number of Subaru engines being rebuilt by workshops shows that is not so.
I would rather find the det threshold in controlled, monitored conditions, and then pull back a safety margin across the whole range than leave it somewhere floating about. Otherwise you might find that you are 5 degrees from MBT in one area of the map and could go 3 or more degrees over at another point when the car gets heatsoaked in different conditions to those you mapped it in. In the same vein, I have had to actually drive a few cars myself so that I know they have been pushed harder than their driver would so that they do not det (others scare me ****less and heatsoak it without any help).
There are many factors that influence how close you tune to the knock threshold. Most of the cars I map conservatively and they go away with less or no knock correction (particularly imports mapped for 100-102 RON). Thermal management also plays a big part - if you have an inadequate turbo and intercooler for the power you are trying to produce, the heatsoak and a moving knock threshold are far more of a problem. In this case you are more cautious. Same with mapping for track use.
The thought I object to is someone giving advise to others that they should tune with blissful ignorance.
What they do on their own car is up to them, but just because theirs hasn't blown up doesn't mean that others won't doing the same.
This also is not about amateur vs professional tuning. I probably lose many customers because I tell them what they can do to their cars cheaply without spending anything in my direction.
Maybe scaremongery threads that I chunter out irritate people, but the "how much boost can I run" threads irritate me - it is far too simplistic to be safe. People think they can just crank the boost up with abandon. The number of engine failure threads posted on here and the number of Subaru engines being rebuilt by workshops shows that is not so.
18 December 2002, 01:46 PM
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It's like smoking. Smoking causes cancer. The Mikey camp say "I've been smoking 40 years and I'm ok". The John camp say " but you'll die". Both are right. It's a personal choice at the end of the day.
Very good Rich John was making the point that the decatted STI 7s are overboosting in the cold causing problems. You have to remember every car is different. In my opinion you can stick a full-decat onto a UK classic drive like a mad man and probably be fine...the car doesn't respond badly to a decat (unless I'm mistaken!). Perhaps the STI 7 is isn't so good with a decat, maybe this gives it problems....is that so hard to believe. You can whap a K&N induction kit onto almost any hot hatch in the world without a worry in the world...stick one on a scooby and bye bye maf! Every car is different and each must be investigated and researched before tuning.
This is great, someone else creating a controversial thread for once
18 December 2002, 01:48 PM
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topic opener
my DAWES has been on countless cars without boost gauges (Using fuel cut as the pointer)
then you say you only run 14psi with your own car.hope no-one listens to your p1sh.
at your boost I would probably bin the dawes as standard control would probably be similar and at least then IF the ecu detects a problem it can cut boost to save your engine.
my DAWES has been on countless cars without boost gauges (Using fuel cut as the pointer)
then you say you only run 14psi with your own car.hope no-one listens to your p1sh.
at your boost I would probably bin the dawes as standard control would probably be similar and at least then IF the ecu detects a problem it can cut boost to save your engine.
18 December 2002, 01:52 PM
#39
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I can vouch that without a Dawes Device (or other boost controller) or a restrictor a STI 7/Type UK will spike up to 1.5-1.7 bar. I use a Dawes on my STI UK to regulate my boost down to 1.1/2 bar held in 5th/6th, but I only ever set them up (as part of my packs or on their own) with the use of Delta Dash and/or a Techtom select monitor reader. Older cars need an AFR and Detonation sensor such as a Knock Link as well as a boost gauge.
I am constantly paranoid about detonation, as a certain so called Subaru "Specialist" thought it apt to include detonation as part of a Unichip remap on my car a couple of months ago!!!
When I sell a Dawes Device, I try to convince people that they need a boost gauge and AFR as a minimum, a knock link is also essential IMHO, some people see this as me trying to boost sales, but it is the safest way to go about tuning a car in this way. Saying that it is their responsibility from there on and having sold over 700 this year, I have not heard of any problems. People are usually more than able and mature/sensible enough to use these properly.
The cold weather will cause cars to boost higher, though, my car hit over 1.3 bar today with an ambient temp of 0 degrees C.
Jamie
www.j-w-racing.com
I am constantly paranoid about detonation, as a certain so called Subaru "Specialist" thought it apt to include detonation as part of a Unichip remap on my car a couple of months ago!!!
When I sell a Dawes Device, I try to convince people that they need a boost gauge and AFR as a minimum, a knock link is also essential IMHO, some people see this as me trying to boost sales, but it is the safest way to go about tuning a car in this way. Saying that it is their responsibility from there on and having sold over 700 this year, I have not heard of any problems. People are usually more than able and mature/sensible enough to use these properly.
The cold weather will cause cars to boost higher, though, my car hit over 1.3 bar today with an ambient temp of 0 degrees C.
Jamie
www.j-w-racing.com
18 December 2002, 01:55 PM
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Mikey,
How do you KNOW your car is fine?
My car was FINE with a full decat - no other mods. Then it blew up. At the time I also KNEW it was fine.
not trying to sow seeds of doubt, but just because YOU think it's ok, doesn't mean it is.
You paranoid yet?
How do you KNOW your car is fine?
My car was FINE with a full decat - no other mods. Then it blew up. At the time I also KNEW it was fine.
not trying to sow seeds of doubt, but just because YOU think it's ok, doesn't mean it is.
You paranoid yet?
18 December 2002, 01:59 PM
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Mikey, no offence taken or intended. Perhaps use of the word idiot was strong, but rarely do I say what I feel, and I did. You personally I am sure are a very nice person, but I wouldn't take tuning advice from you, and I don't think you should give it.
I would be gutted if a car I had done let go... however... if I carry on tuning long enough it will happen. I had a near miss recently when a P1 with a decat blew up at high speed just days before I was due to remap it. What if it went afterwards? Maybe I would have found a sensor problem or the map would have been safer and it would not have blown up. Maybe mechanically that engine was going to go anyway? Maybe it had been detting before? Anyway, it wouldn't look very good if I tuned it and it went 2 days later.
Some cars may let go, because I am doing a reasonable amount of 300+ BHP work now, and I try to get the owners to realise that are taking risks.
My own engine could go at any time it is that highly strung, but I am not waiting for it to happen. Andy F's engine is having problems now, am I going to say it was because he is a crap tuner? FFS, no! He has pushed the limits a lot and now found them, and we are all very grateful. If he took his standard car and just turned it up to 25 PSI would he be a good tuner? Er.. no. His whole quest like mine has basically been temperature and detonation management as a means of extracting more power with as much safety as possible.. mainly through running more boost - unashamedly turbo cars have to run high boost to run big power and wide torque band on an EJ20. (Andy correct me if I am wrong).
I used to think that if my engine popped everyone would laugh at me.. now I don't give a stuff. It is my development car, and it has taught me a lot. I am in full knowledge that I am pushing it, but if it pops I sure want it to do so not because I let it det!
Yes, Merry Christmas, and don't make it too good for R19KET by all blowing up your engines He is waiting for my clutch and gearbox order, and will hopefully wait a bit longer
[Edited by john banks - 12/18/2002 2:05:20 PM]
I would be gutted if a car I had done let go... however... if I carry on tuning long enough it will happen. I had a near miss recently when a P1 with a decat blew up at high speed just days before I was due to remap it. What if it went afterwards? Maybe I would have found a sensor problem or the map would have been safer and it would not have blown up. Maybe mechanically that engine was going to go anyway? Maybe it had been detting before? Anyway, it wouldn't look very good if I tuned it and it went 2 days later.
Some cars may let go, because I am doing a reasonable amount of 300+ BHP work now, and I try to get the owners to realise that are taking risks.
My own engine could go at any time it is that highly strung, but I am not waiting for it to happen. Andy F's engine is having problems now, am I going to say it was because he is a crap tuner? FFS, no! He has pushed the limits a lot and now found them, and we are all very grateful. If he took his standard car and just turned it up to 25 PSI would he be a good tuner? Er.. no. His whole quest like mine has basically been temperature and detonation management as a means of extracting more power with as much safety as possible.. mainly through running more boost - unashamedly turbo cars have to run high boost to run big power and wide torque band on an EJ20. (Andy correct me if I am wrong).
I used to think that if my engine popped everyone would laugh at me.. now I don't give a stuff. It is my development car, and it has taught me a lot. I am in full knowledge that I am pushing it, but if it pops I sure want it to do so not because I let it det!
Yes, Merry Christmas, and don't make it too good for R19KET by all blowing up your engines
He is waiting for my clutch and gearbox order, and will hopefully wait a bit longer [Edited by john banks - 12/18/2002 2:05:20 PM]
18 December 2002, 02:02 PM
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Let me just see if I'm getting the point of this thread.
People are being put off from doing something because they are getting complete and thourough advice?
Umm, OK. From now on, will those in the know just give half ar5ed advice, because not enough people are blowing their engines up.
People are being put off from doing something because they are getting complete and thourough advice?
Umm, OK. From now on, will those in the know just give half ar5ed advice, because not enough people are blowing their engines up.
18 December 2002, 02:07 PM
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John I can't see how anyone could laugh at you if your engine lets go. I've been meaning to ask you what the predicted fly power is but I'm guessing it must be comfortably above 350bhp. For a car that was designed with 215bhp in mind that is pretty good IMO. We need people like you, Dave Wallis, Andy F and Sipie () pushing the tuning thresholds for the benefit of us all. Frankly we should each chip in 50p to buy you all a spare engine so you can blow it up and report your findings. My cash is in the post
) pushing the tuning thresholds for the benefit of us all. Frankly we should each chip in 50p to buy you all a spare engine so you can blow it up and report your findings. My cash is in the post
18 December 2002, 02:25 PM
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sorry but have to put my vote in with john.
Knowledge does make you paranoid. But paranoia is safer than wrecklessness.
No offence mikey but john giving advice telling people how to take care of their engines is not a bad thing at all, as the worst that can happen is they remain as they are, and best that can happen is they learn something to prolong engine life.
Nearly all of your statements in your orginal thread can lead someone to an engine failure, simply because things seem ok to you.
I dont think it is right to give advice unless you have sound reasoning to base your conclusions on. I have made mistakes in the past and learned from them, mostly by being corrected by people on this bbs. How would you feel if people took your advice and their engines blew up? would it be ok because yours has been fine so far?
You may question their intelligence for tuning blindly, but your advice based on no knowledge at all is a classic case of blind leading the blind.
Perhaps it is wrong for john to assume people are clever enough to understand what he is saying or that they are even interested, but I am guessing those with common sense would be inclined to take on board the advice of someone who has thought about a problem, rather than casually saying "it'll be fine!"
I dont mean to insult you, but I think it is wrong that you can post what you have, criticising learned people for passing on the benefits of their intelligence and experience, in an attempt to make things easier and safer for those less inclined to learn for themselves.
Who cares if it is scaremongering. Being "unnecessarily" afraid is far less expensive than rebuilding a car you may have helped blow up.
Knowledge does make you paranoid. But paranoia is safer than wrecklessness.
No offence mikey but john giving advice telling people how to take care of their engines is not a bad thing at all, as the worst that can happen is they remain as they are, and best that can happen is they learn something to prolong engine life.
Nearly all of your statements in your orginal thread can lead someone to an engine failure, simply because things seem ok to you.
I dont think it is right to give advice unless you have sound reasoning to base your conclusions on. I have made mistakes in the past and learned from them, mostly by being corrected by people on this bbs. How would you feel if people took your advice and their engines blew up? would it be ok because yours has been fine so far?
You may question their intelligence for tuning blindly, but your advice based on no knowledge at all is a classic case of blind leading the blind.
Perhaps it is wrong for john to assume people are clever enough to understand what he is saying or that they are even interested, but I am guessing those with common sense would be inclined to take on board the advice of someone who has thought about a problem, rather than casually saying "it'll be fine!"
I dont mean to insult you, but I think it is wrong that you can post what you have, criticising learned people for passing on the benefits of their intelligence and experience, in an attempt to make things easier and safer for those less inclined to learn for themselves.
Who cares if it is scaremongering. Being "unnecessarily" afraid is far less expensive than rebuilding a car you may have helped blow up.
18 December 2002, 02:26 PM
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Am with John on this one.
Why don't we just put it to the test if Mikey is so confident in his fuel cut and standard protection.
Let John put a dawes on it crank it up and see what happens?
Would love to see (or hear) the results!
Why don't we just put it to the test if Mikey is so confident in his fuel cut and standard protection.
Let John put a dawes on it crank it up and see what happens?
Would love to see (or hear) the results!
18 December 2002, 02:38 PM
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I just noticed the title.
Exploding some myths?
what myths?
is there proof that all the good advice some us (not me, I stole all of mine) have taken years of tuning to formulate are all lies?
Scientific evidence to dispell these "myths"?
Exploding some myths?
what myths?
is there proof that all the good advice some us (not me, I stole all of mine
) have taken years of tuning to formulate are all lies?Scientific evidence to dispell these "myths"?
18 December 2002, 02:43 PM
#51
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I have learnt a heck of a lot from Adam M even if he does think it is recycled from other people It is no shame to say that I don't have an engineering background, and have learned a heck of a lot off here, 22b, other websites, and a heck of a lot of books and fiddling. My knowledge of electronics (amateur not professional) got me into the ECUs very quickly, and the mechanical understanding has followed, even if I am still crap with a spanner T-uk saves me there
Most of the stuff I spout is recycled from other people, but all I have done is put effort into acquiring knowledge and experience. It has only been gathered over a 3 year period, but we all have to start somewhere. The reason I think I have been OK so far, is that I have only done things I understand the implications of and am cautious by nature. If you are not motivated to do something properly and improve your understanding of something, maybe it is best not to do it at all? This anti-knowledge approach is really a bit alien to me...
It is no shame to say that I don't have an engineering background, and have learned a heck of a lot off here, 22b, other websites, and a heck of a lot of books and fiddling. My knowledge of electronics (amateur not professional) got me into the ECUs very quickly, and the mechanical understanding has followed, even if I am still crap with a spanner T-uk saves me there Most of the stuff I spout is recycled from other people, but all I have done is put effort into acquiring knowledge and experience. It has only been gathered over a 3 year period, but we all have to start somewhere. The reason I think I have been OK so far, is that I have only done things I understand the implications of and am cautious by nature. If you are not motivated to do something properly and improve your understanding of something, maybe it is best not to do it at all? This anti-knowledge approach is really a bit alien to me...
18 December 2002, 02:50 PM
#52
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I know at one time Adam and others were concerned about the access people had to Dawes and fuel cut defenders...
http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000164.html
... now I have to admit I share some concerns following the contents of this thread.... which is why I am defending my corner so vociferously.
http://bbs.22b.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000164.html
... now I have to admit I share some concerns following the contents of this thread.... which is why I am defending my corner so vociferously.
18 December 2002, 03:13 PM
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Bottom line is:
For the same reasoning that you can very easily kill someone with a pencil, a Dawes Device works extremely well when set up properly and used responsibly.
John you know this more than anyone, so don't let it worry you!
For the same reasoning that you can very easily kill someone with a pencil, a Dawes Device works extremely well when set up properly and used responsibly.
John you know this more than anyone, so don't let it worry you!
18 December 2002, 03:13 PM
#54
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Gridlock Mikey,
You asked for opinions. I believe you have been quite irresponsible in posting the "information" you have here. Nothing personal. I just hope that no one takes what you have written as gospel without seeking other, hopefully more informed, opinions first. Again, nothing personal.
Moray
You asked for opinions. I believe you have been quite irresponsible in posting the "information" you have here. Nothing personal. I just hope that no one takes what you have written as gospel without seeking other, hopefully more informed, opinions first. Again, nothing personal.
Moray
18 December 2002, 03:17 PM
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I have heard the "trinkle" of det that John B talks about. Even with only 2 greens showing on the KL (sensor on block and set to max sensitivity), it is distinctly audible and coincides with the LED's flicking upwards.
18 December 2002, 03:17 PM
#56
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how are you defining heavily modified cars?
by money spent or what is fitted to them, or the boost pressure you run??
David
by money spent or what is fitted to them, or the boost pressure you run??
David
18 December 2002, 03:24 PM
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i have just looked at this thread and excuse me if i missed a couple of things but phew it is a biggy!
i think the point that john really intended to make in the first place was, that if you tune your car up be it with whatever mods you deem fit. so long as a reasonable amount of advise has been sought, then one should not suffer problems. of course modifying anything can lead to adverse effects, but that is a risk inherent by nature.
some of comments about potential disasters, dare i say it, are ill-informed. certain problems seem to get banded about as though there almost "in vouge"!
basically, just enjoy the car - many people are using similar equipment to you when they modify and do not incurr problems.
i know what john is saying here, as i used to be soooo **** about my pug 1.6 gti. i was more protective over it and its running than i am my scoob - why? 'cos life is too short to be worrying about a motor. if it goes bang - oh well i'll have to repair it! thats life, but i won't refrain from modifying just on hearsay. if there is a severe problem then it is most unlikely that any reputable vendor will supply the parts.
i just enjoy the car alot more now with my new chilled attitude towards cars in general.
my view, not nessacarily that of others - we will see!
weava
i think the point that john really intended to make in the first place was, that if you tune your car up be it with whatever mods you deem fit. so long as a reasonable amount of advise has been sought, then one should not suffer problems. of course modifying anything can lead to adverse effects, but that is a risk inherent by nature.
some of comments about potential disasters, dare i say it, are ill-informed. certain problems seem to get banded about as though there almost "in vouge"!
basically, just enjoy the car - many people are using similar equipment to you when they modify and do not incurr problems.
i know what john is saying here, as i used to be soooo **** about my pug 1.6 gti. i was more protective over it and its running than i am my scoob - why? 'cos life is too short to be worrying about a motor. if it goes bang - oh well i'll have to repair it! thats life, but i won't refrain from modifying just on hearsay. if there is a severe problem then it is most unlikely that any reputable vendor will supply the parts.
i just enjoy the car alot more now with my new chilled attitude towards cars in general.
my view, not nessacarily that of others - we will see
!weava
18 December 2002, 03:36 PM
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Mikey,
it's disappointing you hold this view - one you're entitles to but disappointing all the same. As others have said, people *should* be careful and paranoid if they are going to modify their own cars (and to be honest, to a degree they should try and understand as much as they can if they entrust it to an "expert" also!!!). Also, like others have said, just because you have not had any problems with your specific setup, does not mean that others will not have any problems with the same mods. Some of John's points on the state of a selection of standard cars should make you realise that!!!
I personally wouldn't do anything to my car if I didn't think I understood it first, as I'm very paranoid about making changes as I like my car, and would be upset if it let go. I personally can't understand the viewpoint that some people take such as "if it blows, it blows - I'll just rebuild it". Rebuilds take a) a fair amount of time b) a fair amount of cost and I wish to experience neither.
People are (mostly) adults on here and can make their own decisions but an informed one has to be the best way, and anyone being advised to carry out xy and z mod with no caveat and warnings would rightly be pissed off if this led to a blow up!!!!
Ta,
Matt
it's disappointing you hold this view - one you're entitles to but disappointing all the same. As others have said, people *should* be careful and paranoid if they are going to modify their own cars (and to be honest, to a degree they should try and understand as much as they can if they entrust it to an "expert" also!!!). Also, like others have said, just because you have not had any problems with your specific setup, does not mean that others will not have any problems with the same mods. Some of John's points on the state of a selection of standard cars should make you realise that!!!
I personally wouldn't do anything to my car if I didn't think I understood it first, as I'm very paranoid about making changes as I like my car, and would be upset if it let go. I personally can't understand the viewpoint that some people take such as "if it blows, it blows - I'll just rebuild it". Rebuilds take a) a fair amount of time b) a fair amount of cost and I wish to experience neither.
People are (mostly
) adults on here and can make their own decisions but an informed one has to be the best way, and anyone being advised to carry out xy and z mod with no caveat and warnings would rightly be pissed off if this led to a blow up!!!!Ta,
Matt
18 December 2002, 03:41 PM
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Well, what have i opened up here?
Try this at your next scooby meet, ask if anyone has had a problem with an ITG Filter or if someone has had a problem since they took their resonator box off. I bet the answer would be no.
Maybe choosing the Dawes as an example was wrong (Emotive though ) because it was wandering into the Lions den as it were but i still maintain that everyone knows that there are risks involved in tuning and if everyone suddenly thought, well Mikey's car is OK so i'll follow his lead, more fool them.
Where does it end? "I sat in stationary traffic this morning for an hour. Best i get the car to a dealer to have them stick the select monitor on to make sure that the underbonnet temps didn't damage anything" or "I really enjoyed that blast (and here is the point) I HOPE THAT EVERYTHING IS OK"
Because of the highly technical posts about what is going on in the engine, people are left doubting the car. Why can't I stop, cool down, switch off, and walk away. Why should i have to worry that i've just damaged my car?
The physical advice that is given on SN is generally brilliant. I understand for example, why I need to let the car warm down or what exactly clutch judder is. It's HARD physical evidence ie If the turbo was knackered and it was because i hadn't cooled down over the years then the evidence would be there. I bet many people would jump in to blame the Dawes or the MAF or a host of other maybes.
No conclusion to offer i'm afraid. We are both right but today I felt like voicing an opinion.
BTW John, i don't offer tuning advice 'cos i don't know enough about it at that level. I can however tell people MY findings about ,lets call them step 1 mods itg, exhaust etc,and if they choose to have a go, what's the matter with that?
Mikey
Try this at your next scooby meet, ask if anyone has had a problem with an ITG Filter or if someone has had a problem since they took their resonator box off. I bet the answer would be no.
Maybe choosing the Dawes as an example was wrong (Emotive though
) because it was wandering into the Lions den as it were but i still maintain that everyone knows that there are risks involved in tuning and if everyone suddenly thought, well Mikey's car is OK so i'll follow his lead, more fool them.Where does it end? "I sat in stationary traffic this morning for an hour. Best i get the car to a dealer to have them stick the select monitor on to make sure that the underbonnet temps didn't damage anything" or "I really enjoyed that blast (and here is the point) I HOPE THAT EVERYTHING IS OK"
Because of the highly technical posts about what is going on in the engine, people are left doubting the car. Why can't I stop, cool down, switch off, and walk away. Why should i have to worry that i've just damaged my car?
The physical advice that is given on SN is generally brilliant. I understand for example, why I need to let the car warm down or what exactly clutch judder is. It's HARD physical evidence ie If the turbo was knackered and it was because i hadn't cooled down over the years then the evidence would be there. I bet many people would jump in to blame the Dawes or the MAF or a host of other maybes.
No conclusion to offer i'm afraid. We are both right but today I felt like voicing an opinion.
BTW John, i don't offer tuning advice
'cos i don't know enough about it at that level. I can however tell people MY findings about ,lets call them step 1 mods itg, exhaust etc,and if they choose to have a go, what's the matter with that?Mikey