I just gotta say this........Exploding some myths cos its time.......thoughts?
18 December 2002, 03:45 PM
#61
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why do people seem to think also that any det is always bad.
For a start it isnt det to be perfectly honest, to coin something I learned from pat it is actually explosive deflagration, but thats just being ****. Detonation really does hammer your pistons and is incredible rare.
The knock link will pick up signs of "det", but you cannot expect to map a car so that it doesnt happen. many tuned cars are prone to lift of det and transitional det. These are almost unavoidable, and while they are potentially just as threatening, they occur very frequently in highly tuned cars.
Fatal det is a different story, this was just to explain that not all det means certain destruction.
The det to which john is referring certainly can.
For a start it isnt det to be perfectly honest, to coin something I learned from pat it is actually explosive deflagration, but thats just being ****. Detonation really does hammer your pistons and is incredible rare.
The knock link will pick up signs of "det", but you cannot expect to map a car so that it doesnt happen. many tuned cars are prone to lift of det and transitional det. These are almost unavoidable, and while they are potentially just as threatening, they occur very frequently in highly tuned cars.
Fatal det is a different story, this was just to explain that not all det means certain destruction.
The det to which john is referring certainly can.
18 December 2002, 03:49 PM
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Mikey,
You say:
And you say that you understand why. You understand this presumably becuase somebody (possibly on this bbs) told you about how this can fry the turbo. I interpret some of what you are saying akin to:
"Thrash you car, stop, turn it off and it'll be fine because that's what I do and my car is fine".
Now because you know better (by whatever avenue you came by this knowledge), you don't do it but someone who understands the issue and who is paranoid and helpful enough has previously advised against this practise. This is exactly the kind of thing you are complaining about isn't it?
Matt
You say:
Because of the highly technical posts about what is going on in the engine, people are left doubting the car. Why can't I stop, cool down, switch off, and walk away. Why should i have to worry that i've just damaged my car?
"Thrash you car, stop, turn it off and it'll be fine because that's what I do and my car is fine".
Now because you know better (by whatever avenue you came by this knowledge), you don't do it but someone who understands the issue and who is paranoid and helpful enough has previously advised against this practise. This is exactly the kind of thing you are complaining about isn't it?
Matt
18 December 2002, 03:51 PM
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What is wrong? Basically you are giving poor advice. I cite your resonator removal suggestion being harmless. This has on one car lead to lean running because water got on the MAF sensor (but you don't mind if your car dets 
). On another car the turbo failed - the compressor wheel was all pitted from water inhalation.
On some cars if you suggest an exhaust upgrade they could also detonate.
Subarus have weaknesses, but in standard form are pretty reliable - I think we all agree on that. However, to throw away the millions put in by the OEM and replace it with the sort of stuff the cavemen down the pub suggest is perhaps misguided. Therefore it needs a lot of careful thought about what you do to the car to expect it to be enhanced rather than butchered.
Unless you have lots of money to throw about, most people if they want to modify a £20k car will be prepared to either put the time and effort in themselves to get it right having researched it, or will pay someone to do it properly.
Throwing on a boost controller and hoping is what you expect from kids buying £500 RS Turbos.
). On another car the turbo failed - the compressor wheel was all pitted from water inhalation.On some cars if you suggest an exhaust upgrade they could also detonate.
Subarus have weaknesses, but in standard form are pretty reliable - I think we all agree on that. However, to throw away the millions put in by the OEM and replace it with the sort of stuff the cavemen down the pub suggest is perhaps misguided. Therefore it needs a lot of careful thought about what you do to the car to expect it to be enhanced rather than butchered.
Unless you have lots of money to throw about, most people if they want to modify a £20k car will be prepared to either put the time and effort in themselves to get it right having researched it, or will pay someone to do it properly.
Throwing on a boost controller and hoping is what you expect from kids buying £500 RS Turbos.
18 December 2002, 04:41 PM
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Point taken,
Interesting response from all (The best being RICH WILDS
) Brightened up the day i suppose.
Merry xmas all
Mikey
Interesting response from all (The best being RICH WILDS
) Brightened up the day i suppose.Merry xmas all
Mikey
18 December 2002, 04:42 PM
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Mikey,
About time.
I had an STI5 that is apparently one of the most prone to blowing up. In a year and 24k miles it never missed a beat running on SUL. Apparently on the rollers it had a little det at just under 8k. So what. I never used that many revs all the time anyway.
The car was totally standard and felt WAY stronger than many modded cars.
Matt
About time.
I had an STI5 that is apparently one of the most prone to blowing up. In a year and 24k miles it never missed a beat running on SUL. Apparently on the rollers it had a little det at just under 8k. So what. I never used that many revs all the time anyway. The car was totally standard and felt WAY stronger than many modded cars.
Matt
18 December 2002, 04:57 PM
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dunno about the rest of ya but i think my engine is fast enough without a turbo booster. having said that i have never driven a faster car so i dont know what i am missing. is it true that once the modding bug has bitten you want more and more from the car. where does it end? the scooby is not a car you can go down to halfords and buy a set of brake pad for £10. most of the replacement parts are expensive, having learnt that over the past couple of weeks looking at web sites that sell parts for modders.
where do u draw the line. when does the cost of modding the car out weigh the performance gains?
having said that the new yellow 220 in this months evo looks well fit.
cheers
big sinky
where do u draw the line. when does the cost of modding the car out weigh the performance gains?
having said that the new yellow 220 in this months evo looks well fit.
cheers
big sinky
18 December 2002, 05:39 PM
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I echo the sentiments made about learning to drive the thing being the best mod. However i do understand peops wanting to make little improvements like exhausts etc. Id still be wary of mucking around with manufacturers boost settings, as ive been down that road before and knackered an engine (non impreza).
280-300 is enough for me, and i dare say that anyone with a very good driving technique would comfortably keep up with me on the twisties (i love that word!) in a standard uk car. Im not ashamed to admit that there are a lot faster drivers out there than me, and they dont all drive white transits
280-300 is enough for me, and i dare say that anyone with a very good driving technique would comfortably keep up with me on the twisties (i love that word!) in a standard uk car. Im not ashamed to admit that there are a lot faster drivers out there than me, and they dont all drive white transits
18 December 2002, 05:58 PM
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You will care when your car starts to det which it will do or maybe is doing now and don't know it when it suddenly goes pop when your racing your next Nova which it will do if your approach is as you say. Your money to waste though.
18 December 2002, 06:41 PM
#70
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I would like to add my input into this because I probably started this off with John.
For the past 3 months I've had the full Milltek sports exhaust on my STI7 and have been very happy with it. The only other mods I have on the car is a boost gauge and a Knocklink, I fitted these because of the well known boost spike issues with exhausts on STI7's.
Recently on a drive down to a rolling road the Knocklink lit up a solid red on WOT, I backed off the throttle straight away from the KL indication just in case.
On the rollers the two people running the car (one driving the other in the engine bay) also heard the detention, this was showing up on the Knocklink so I know the car was detting with the indications. We thought at the time it could have been a bad batch of fuel but since then I've had a couple of fill ups and it is still there, even to the point I heard it det myself!!!
So this is where I've been emailing John and discussing the above point, and we've come to the conclusion from various Delta Dash readings that the colder weather is making the car overboost so producing det. This was also the conclusion from another tuning company BTW.
Now going by your opinion Mikey, it is safe to change the exhaust system on a £27500 STi and accept boost spikes of 1.7bar and major detting, am I correct???
I can guarantee you the car will eventually give up the ghost along with your warranty on an screwed engine, fine is it? I think not
I personally want to run my car as safe as possible so what harm is mentioning possible realistic problems to the general public??
IMHO having a pop at the tread containing STI overboosting issues was harsh. The STI7's are still a unknown when modding unlike older models that have had plenty of voice. Various treads about this I think are very useful.
I not having a go and I respect your own opinions but there is a line to be drawn on common sense.
I forgot to add I am in no way an expert on this, I just appreciate feedback from people like John who has a better understanding than me.
Oh and good thread BTW!
Regards,
Rob.
Sorry for waffling!
[Edited by Rob D - 12/18/2002 6:52:26 PM]
For the past 3 months I've had the full Milltek sports exhaust on my STI7 and have been very happy with it. The only other mods I have on the car is a boost gauge and a Knocklink, I fitted these because of the well known boost spike issues with exhausts on STI7's.
Recently on a drive down to a rolling road the Knocklink lit up a solid red on WOT, I backed off the throttle straight away from the KL indication just in case.
On the rollers the two people running the car (one driving the other in the engine bay) also heard the detention, this was showing up on the Knocklink so I know the car was detting with the indications. We thought at the time it could have been a bad batch of fuel but since then I've had a couple of fill ups and it is still there, even to the point I heard it det myself!!!
So this is where I've been emailing John and discussing the above point, and we've come to the conclusion from various Delta Dash readings that the colder weather is making the car overboost so producing det. This was also the conclusion from another tuning company BTW.
Now going by your opinion Mikey, it is safe to change the exhaust system on a £27500 STi and accept boost spikes of 1.7bar and major detting, am I correct???
I can guarantee you the car will eventually give up the ghost along with your warranty on an screwed engine, fine is it? I think not
I personally want to run my car as safe as possible so what harm is mentioning possible realistic problems to the general public??
IMHO having a pop at the tread containing STI overboosting issues was harsh. The STI7's are still a unknown when modding unlike older models that have had plenty of voice. Various treads about this I think are very useful.
I not having a go and I respect your own opinions but there is a line to be drawn on common sense.
I forgot to add I am in no way an expert on this, I just appreciate feedback from people like John who has a better understanding than me.
Oh and good thread BTW!
Regards,
Rob.
Sorry for waffling!
[Edited by Rob D - 12/18/2002 6:52:26 PM]
18 December 2002, 08:59 PM
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Agree with both points
Currently got a MY01 with ITG and TSL Centre & BB - so at stage 1 according to Mikey
After my daily dose of Drivetrain I worry about MAF failure - so will probably get some kind of thing to monitor it (and boost for that matter and oil temp and speed and revs and tyre pressure and G force - don't want to black out!)...and anything else, and while I'm at it a knock detector, then I can have no cats & TEK7 remap - down that slippery slope I willingly slide....
The point is everyone to their own - there's enough advice here to make your own educated judgement on what order to do stuff depending on how far you want to take it....ignorance is bliss - but it hurts when it bites...
But the guy that started a thread about whether to stop and start the engine on his Scoob while he locked the garage door after reversing out - oh For Fukcs Sake!
I'll get me coat...
Chris
Currently got a MY01 with ITG and TSL Centre & BB - so at stage 1 according to Mikey
After my daily dose of Drivetrain I worry about MAF failure - so will probably get some kind of thing to monitor it (and boost for that matter and oil temp and speed and revs and tyre pressure and G force - don't want to black out!)...and anything else, and while I'm at it a knock detector, then I can have no cats & TEK7 remap - down that slippery slope I willingly slide....
The point is everyone to their own - there's enough advice here to make your own educated judgement on what order to do stuff depending on how far you want to take it....ignorance is bliss - but it hurts when it bites...
But the guy that started a thread about whether to stop and start the engine on his Scoob while he locked the garage door after reversing out - oh For Fukcs Sake!
I'll get me coat...
Chris
18 December 2002, 11:01 PM
#72
You will care when your car starts to det which it will do or maybe is doing now and don't know it when it suddenly goes pop when your racing your next Nova which it will do if your approach is as you say. Your money to waste though.
18 December 2002, 11:53 PM
#73
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As posted by Gridlock Mikey on the 1st page....
Why not?
I'd want to know if my car was detting, hence why it gets taken out after setting up once a month, with the det cans and wide band lambda......
All you're doing by keeping an eye on things like this is preventative maintenance - if you can catch problems early, you can sort them, and keep the car running sweet.
Just my opinion, mind, but as far as I see it, ignorance about a subject is no excuse.
I really couldn't care if my car was detting, running "slightly" lean/rich, if the MAF was on it's way out
I'd want to know if my car was detting, hence why it gets taken out after setting up once a month, with the det cans and wide band lambda......
All you're doing by keeping an eye on things like this is preventative maintenance - if you can catch problems early, you can sort them, and keep the car running sweet.
Just my opinion, mind, but as far as I see it, ignorance about a subject is no excuse.
19 December 2002, 12:28 AM
#74
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I'm afraid I dont agree with you Mikey as your logic just isn't right. I see your point that if your car hasn't gone BANG, why should you worry. It's like all those American's who thought it couldn't and wouldn't be harmed, then some fecking bunch of idiots fly some planes into their cities. Ignorance is bliss, but information and fear are things to embrace. I personally want as much information as possible and a controllable amount of fear to keep me switched on.
If someone asks if fitting an ITG filter will blow up their car, they should be told that there is an increase risk of the MAF developing a fault due to contamination, which would lead to the car running lean and may lead to an engine failure.
They should also be told that x number of people have ran ITG's and not had any problems.
The great thing with Scoobynet is you get both sides of the story and you can therefore come to your own conclusions.
I wired up a 5v battery to my ********* and it tickled a bit, so I wired up a 12v car battery and it's the best experience I've ever had. Can everyone know go and connect their ********* to car batteries; it'll cost you next to nothing and bring a huge smile to your face.
I'll await the 'my ********* went bang....... and now their like shriveled and charred dry prunes' thread
And to answer David's question, I'd say a well modded car is large turbo, strenghtened internals, uprated clutch, FMIC, cold-air filter, good increase in boost (17psi+), ECU remap, etc.. - any or all of the above.
Stefan
If someone asks if fitting an ITG filter will blow up their car, they should be told that there is an increase risk of the MAF developing a fault due to contamination, which would lead to the car running lean and may lead to an engine failure.
They should also be told that x number of people have ran ITG's and not had any problems.
The great thing with Scoobynet is you get both sides of the story and you can therefore come to your own conclusions.
I wired up a 5v battery to my ********* and it tickled a bit, so I wired up a 12v car battery and it's the best experience I've ever had. Can everyone know go and connect their ********* to car batteries; it'll cost you next to nothing and bring a huge smile to your face.
I'll await the 'my ********* went bang....... and now their like shriveled and charred dry prunes' thread
And to answer David's question, I'd say a well modded car is large turbo, strenghtened internals, uprated clutch, FMIC, cold-air filter, good increase in boost (17psi+), ECU remap, etc.. - any or all of the above.
Stefan
19 December 2002, 10:06 AM
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Gridlock Mikey: Last night I popped outside, ripped off the MAF and Lambda sensors, removed the boost guage, reset the ECU, drove off up the road with a stone cold engine, with outside temp of -1 degree. I buzzed the engine up to the red line in every gear, and now........
my engine is bu**ered, and it's all your fault!!!!!
Thanks for your unparalleled tuning advice and Happy XMAS.
[Edited by Sheepsplitter - 12/19/2002 10:08:02 AM]
my engine is bu**ered, and it's all your fault!!!!!
Thanks for your unparalleled tuning advice and Happy XMAS.
[Edited by Sheepsplitter - 12/19/2002 10:08:02 AM]
19 December 2002, 11:58 AM
#78
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Mikey
I cannot believe that you are not prepared to take John Bank's advice. I have a fair amount of experience in building and tuning both normally aspirated and turbocharged racing engines. John B's advice about detonation is 100% correct. Detonation, as has been said often enough before, is similar to hitting the tops of your pistons with a lump hammer and especially with the Scoob with its narrow big end shells is an absolute killer over a period of time. The bearing material will eventually fatigue and fall into the sump! There is also the effect on the pistons which will probably start to melt. I have seen all this happen so believe me. It is difficult to hear some types of detonation but the damage is still being done.
Your idea of tuning your engine to the fuel cut is particularly stupid and you may well suffer a bad failure eventually unless you actually drive rather gently. John has so much experience with these engines and has been tuning properly to try to minimise the risks of failure for long enough and you would do well to accept his good advice. Maybe you have posted all this purely because you feel it is an easy way to do a bit of self tuning and you want to assure yourself that all is ok, or you are trying a bit of "stirring. Trouble is you may lead others along the path of engine destruction.
Go back and read Rich Wild's post-it is excellent advice
Happy Christmas to all
Les
I cannot believe that you are not prepared to take John Bank's advice. I have a fair amount of experience in building and tuning both normally aspirated and turbocharged racing engines. John B's advice about detonation is 100% correct. Detonation, as has been said often enough before, is similar to hitting the tops of your pistons with a lump hammer and especially with the Scoob with its narrow big end shells is an absolute killer over a period of time. The bearing material will eventually fatigue and fall into the sump! There is also the effect on the pistons which will probably start to melt. I have seen all this happen so believe me. It is difficult to hear some types of detonation but the damage is still being done.
Your idea of tuning your engine to the fuel cut is particularly stupid and you may well suffer a bad failure eventually unless you actually drive rather gently. John has so much experience with these engines and has been tuning properly to try to minimise the risks of failure for long enough and you would do well to accept his good advice. Maybe you have posted all this purely because you feel it is an easy way to do a bit of self tuning and you want to assure yourself that all is ok, or you are trying a bit of "stirring. Trouble is you may lead others along the path of engine destruction.
Go back and read Rich Wild's post-it is excellent advice
Happy Christmas to all
Les
19 December 2002, 04:55 PM
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Well, Chiark coughed when Ozzy put 12V in a naughty place, so anything is possible. Patients tell me they have coughed up liver, but it was either liver they ate and they vomited, or they are exaggerating or thinking that it was like liver... you have to read between the lines LOL.
20 December 2002, 05:02 PM
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I have only read the first page as I am short of time.. but in reply to that..
I am a bit suprized at you really Mikey.. how long will it be before you are on here trying to research something else??
You have resured me that even I have a small understanding of how a Turbo engine works and that there are people out there that know less than I.....
Not meant as an insult but come on........ there are so many variables involved here.. how you drive being a big one...
Someone please lend me a car so I can fit a dawes at just below the fuel cut and then let me drive it for a bit to demonstrate..
Tempted to not post this as there is no point............
JGM
I am a bit suprized at you really Mikey.. how long will it be before you are on here trying to research something else??
You have resured me that even I have a small understanding of how a Turbo engine works and that there are people out there that know less than I.....
Not meant as an insult but come on........ there are so many variables involved here.. how you drive being a big one...
Someone please lend me a car so I can fit a dawes at just below the fuel cut and then let me drive it for a bit to demonstrate..
Tempted to not post this as there is no point............
JGM
20 December 2002, 11:50 PM
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Feel the same as when you try and explain to someone that drives in the middle lane on the motorway that they should use the inside lane.... but I have been driving in the middle lane for years and not caused a problem... he didn't notice the queue behind him... and the build up of traffic..
Mikey do you like the middle lane?
JGM
Mikey do you like the middle lane?
JGM
21 December 2002, 02:18 AM
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As a Sport owner I would love to trade up to a turbo. Having never owned a turbo of any marque, I read with interest all comments and choose to discard some and look into others further.
At the end of the day, we all make our own decisions and have to live with them. This thread has opened my eyes up to the fact that there is more to tuning than meets the eye but that is not a bad thing at all - that's why I like Scoobynet and come back for more.
Merry Xmas to all
Jon
Ps. Do Sport engines go POP with modded exhausts I have put one on mine and it is fine AFAIK
At the end of the day, we all make our own decisions and have to live with them. This thread has opened my eyes up to the fact that there is more to tuning than meets the eye but that is not a bad thing at all - that's why I like Scoobynet and come back for more.
Merry Xmas to all
Jon
Ps. Do Sport engines go POP with modded exhausts
I have put one on mine and it is fine AFAIK